Amway Global Ada-tudes: A View from the Top : A Challenge Behind Us, Changes Ahead of Us

A Challenge Behind Us, Changes Ahead of Us

Wednesday, May 14, 2008 by Steve Lieberman
Category: Announcements, Transparency, Quixtar Philosophy

I'm happy to announce that all of the government's claims against Amway UK have been dismissed. This good news allows our business to continue operating in that market and sends a clear message about how we need to be operating in every market. The ruling emphasizes the importance of openness, honesty, and transparency in all we do. It reinforces how critical it is that we enforce our rules and demand high standards of ourselves and everyone who represents this business. And that's what our business transformation here is all about. We are focused on strengthening our product portfolio, brand awareness, compensation plan, and training to help IBOs excel in all aspects of their business. We are committed to making this the very best business opportunity possible and one that every IBO and employee will be proud to be associated with.

For more about the UK ruling, visit the Amway Media Blog.

Comments

Jeffrey said: May 14, 2008 3:02 PM | #

This is great news! Now all that needs to be done is to shut down the expensive, deceptive tool and function systems in North America and all the other Amway markets around the world. That way, the only way people can make money from this business is by building THIS business. Give the Diamonds a year from today to shut them down or kick them out. Then it will REALLY be great news. We will have taken our business back.

TWS said: May 14, 2008 3:02 PM | #

This is great news. Obviously for those in the UK market, but for all of Amway Global as well.

Aside from the ruling, what we learn (corp & IBOs) from this experience will be very valuable to the transfromation. I especially like Steve's comments:

"The ruling emphasizes the importance of openness, honesty, and transparency in all we do."

As long as that is our focus, I think we're in for a great ride.

Bridgett said: May 14, 2008 3:03 PM | #

I am very happy and excited for our fellow IBOs (ABOs over there) in the UK.

This has been a long year for them. Their struggles have made me appreciate all that I have with Quixtar/Amway N.A./Amway Global.

For those ABOs who have built their retail business (they were unable to sponsor for an entire year, for those who didn't know), you were kind of "forced" to do with we here in the States are being asked to do with the First Circle--making your circle, your business, profitable,so that you have something worth duplicating.

Through this adversity, those ABOs who chose to continue to build their retail businesses, are light years ahead of us spoiled North Americans.

Thank you for the many lessons you've all taught me this past year.

Cheers.

Tex said: May 14, 2008 5:48 PM | #

Jeffrey,

A year? How about a day? This has been known to be going on for decades, and a major in the UK for over a year.

Steve, give me a call, you have other issues on breaking rules. Your people know how to contact me.

CJ said: May 14, 2008 6:41 PM | #

Good point Bridgett-I agree!

dreambigID said: May 14, 2008 10:49 PM | #

This IS great news! What a victory for amway global-quixtar. www.quixtar.com. I can't wait to get the news out to those folks I've been & wanted to work w/ in the UK. And I do like that "first cirlce" analogy above--that's the best way for us to succeed anyways, I think.

graniteman said: May 15, 2008 1:43 AM | #

It's truly great news for the corp, ABO's and IBO's that the UK issue had been put behind us... at least for now. Once again it was Amway to the rescue! Where are the great system leaders that get up on stage and pontificate endlessly about their great programs, yet when there is troulbe they run with their tale between their legs begging the corp to bail their behinds out. This has happened over and over and yet when you go to a system function it's really hard to know it has anything to do with Quixtar/Amway. In most cases, you couldn't get anyone to walk across the street to listen to these kingpins if it wouldn't be for the fact that they have the greatest company in the world to back them up. How about a little humility and thankfulness from these people.

I'm with you Jeff. I hope the same tight restrictions are enforced in the US. The accreditation program is nothing more than system appeasment for programs that are not effective, cost the company millions in legal battles and has almost cost us all this buisness opportunity.

Please Amway, do what you know is right. You provide all the tools for systems and independent IBO's and ABO's. Tools can come from anyone and be screened and approved for the use of everyone in this business. After all, if something really does work the company would know it. Why wouldn't Amway want everyone to have the best possible info whether someone is in a system or not. LOA'S can still work together as they are now. They just won't have the profit from the tools. We could have downloadable success stories on how people are selling and sponsoring. We could hear what approaches to prospects are legal and effective etc, etc. All this could be free at QU. This has got to be the new way Amway operates. Amway must protect their name and reputation no matter what it takes. All hard working IBO's and ABO's deserve no less!

A high tide raises all the ships!

Utah said: May 15, 2008 10:01 AM | #

What Changes to the US?

Is the 100 PV, 3% bracket going away?

Is the IBOAI going away?

Are BSM going away?

Are prices of double X going to drop like Daily?

I am for the last one. The retail price of DoubleX is too high. The IBO cost is about right. Anyway to get the Retail cost of Double X to match the IBO cost, and then lower the IBO cost?

TWS said: May 15, 2008 1:33 PM | #

I have read a lot of posts about the accreditation process being nothing more than a "smoke screen" and not really changing anything. That hasn't been my experience.

The LOA I work with has taken the process very seriously. Providing the necessary communication about the "Best Practices" and following through with any areas that need to be tweaked.

Even if the results aren't as significant as everyone hopes, it has certainly made a difference. And if nothing else, has shown certain IBO leadership is very willing to work WITH Q/AG to make things better.

Bridgett said: May 15, 2008 2:23 PM | #

Utah,

A suggestion regarding Double X:

If you want to sell Double X for less, then sell someone the Choices Ribbon Album to them for $50.

Bridgett said: May 15, 2008 2:32 PM | #

granitman said: "...when you go to a system function it's really hard to know it has anything to do with Quixtar/Amway."

Hmm...Att our last "system function" Steve Lieberman came and spoke.

Ya know Steve Lieberman? The Vice President and Managing Director of Quixtar/Amway Global/Amway N.A.?

And every Diamond mentioned the name "Amway" and/or "Quixtar" in their talks (throughout the weekend--not just when Steve and his buddies were present :) --as they praised the Corporation and showed their gratitude for how the AMWAY business positively impacted their lives in many ways.

Translation: not all Systems are evil. :)

L2K said: May 20, 2008 11:20 AM | #

Hey Doug, Steve:

when are we dropping the prices like in UK? We cannot be an effective marketer until we have a compelling value proposition

Bridgett said: May 21, 2008 12:05 PM | #

L2K,

I don't know about where you live, but I'm noticing prices going up significantly in my grocery and health food stores.

Yet Quixtar/Amway Global's pricing has stayed the same for, what, three or four years?

And the free shipping for customers is pretty costly for the Corp.

I think the days of stack-it-deep and sell-it-cheap are over. Particularly when you take in to consideration that these type of stores are several miles out of town and take gasoline (and time) at $4 a gallon, to get to and fro.

Also, for clarification, I believe that the only price adjustments made in the UK/ROI was on the Home Care products. I could be wrong.

Editor? Can you confirm or deny for us?

graniteman said: May 21, 2008 2:41 PM | #

Bridgett,

Having corp people show up at fucntions is nothing new. Corp staff used to show up at TEAM functions too! Have you heard what happened to them! Everyone knows Amway is doing what it has to do to keep things together until all the various fires are put out. Steve's appearance is just another unfortunate example of appeasment. Until the curiosity approach and tool profits are removed from the business in the US, we continue to run the risk of ending up in the same soup as the UK. All concerned IBO's must contact Amway and demand that this becomes an immediate mandate.

Mentioning the name of the comany at meetings is a welcome change. However, just last evening while visiting with my neighbor, they told me about a recent approach and meeting where it was denied that it was Amway when in fact it was. They were really ticked. This IBO is in WWDB! My neighbor buys products from us because they appreaciate the fact that we have been up front about the business from day one. They have nothing good to say about the various BSM groups. They have freinds that have had bad experiances and like most prospects today, a few minutes on the internet exposes systmes for what they really are.

We just can't afford this kind of behavior out in the field any longer. I am going to do everything I can to get it stopped!

TWS said: May 21, 2008 4:41 PM | #

Not all prices need/should be dropped. There is a lot more to a "compelling value propostion" than a simple dollar amount for a product, ie. service, convenience, free shipping, 180 day garuntee, etc.

I'm not suggesting that some of the product mix couldn't use a bit of tweaking in the price dept., but there are plenty of options for anyone to be successful in marketing our current products (as is) if they're willing to open their mouth.

If someone's target market happens to be the "dirt cheap" type, I would suggest marketing the Fuel Cleaner. Even the cheapest guy around would spend $15 bucks to save $30. (Do the math with your own testimonial and see how conservative that example is)

Tex said: May 22, 2008 11:32 AM | #

TWS,

Only when there is a required description of how much money is made via the tools will the accreditation process have any real meaning.

Bridgett,

What did Steve L. have to say about the UK decision to require ZERO tool profit? Ya know, that country across the pond? How about your upline "leaders", did they have any tool profit comments? Ya know, where they make most of their money?

TWS said: May 22, 2008 2:49 PM | #

Tex,

I agree that some modifications need to be applied in regards to transparency (its my understanding thats in the process too), but I disagree that the current accreditation process is lacking any real meaning. Is your LOA accredited? Have you experienced, first-hand, some of the positive aspects the process produces?

Jeffrey said: May 22, 2008 4:07 PM | #

THE COMPANY IS STILL NOT LISTENING.

visioneer said: May 22, 2008 6:38 PM | #

graniteman,

Just because the IBO was in WWDB doesn't mean anything. I'm sure its happened to people who are not in any system.

I believe if the curiosity approach is done right, it is a perfectly legitimate way to invite people to see the business. I've invited many people this way and I've never had anyone feel that they were "tricked" into seeing the business.

In my experience, if I tell them its Amway up front, that decreases my chances of them seeing the full business plan because of their erroneous preconceived notion of the business.

Now to deny that its Amway is lying and that's a totally different matter. That should never be tolerated.

Tex,

I know my upline Diamond and how much he makes from tools. His Amway Global business IS his primary source of income.

Bridgett said: May 22, 2008 10:19 PM | #

graniteman,

Two things:

1) An "approach" is different from a meeting. I may approach someone, but only to see if it's worth having a meeting and talking further. So to mandate that in an approach someone says, "Hey, would like to see the Amway Sales & Marketing Plan?" is silly.

Just like when I'm "approaching" a potential customer, I think it would be silly to say, "Hey, we should get together and let me show you some Amway products." Huh? Maybe I should get together, build a little repoire, and see what their person's needs are, before I recommend specific products.

2) For clarity, are you saying that the meeting was a sanctioned System meeting that the Amway Corporation name was not mentioned?

Or was it a one-on-one or a private meeting?

I ask because no matter how much a System teaches something, the bottom line is that a person is going to do what they want to do.

Frankly, in the Internet Age, it's quite naive, IMO, to not talk about Amway, even before the transition back to that name. When we were 100% Quixtar, I could not understand how IBOs wouldn't know that a person was one Google search away from finding the connection. And once a person makes the connection, they will look at the IBO who approached them with mistrust. Naive at best and stupid at worst.

********

Tex said, "where they make most of their money"

We had this talk in Prague. I told you the truth and you didn't believe the truth. I will not revisit it again.

Jeffrey said: May 27, 2008 4:00 PM | #

Accreditation in my line of sponsorship is not going to change anything. There will still be 5 (yes, five) major functions a year at $120 a ticket coupled with $99 rooms (2 night minimum), along with weekly standing-order-CD and subscription to the website so everyone knows what is going on. In this business, 5 majors simply is not necessary. It needs to stop. Doesn't look like its going to. Looks like business as usual, even after acceditation.

Yes, I am excited about the new "pot" of money from guest shoppers. I am also excited about the National Spotlight tour and how close it will be for me to attend (2 hour trip). But the major functions by system Diamonds just have to stop. It is my upline Exec. Diamond and upline Triple Diamond's major source of income. It stinks.

graniteman said: May 28, 2008 12:58 AM | #

Your right Bridgett! Years of unprofessioal approaches and invitations have caused a general mistrust of people toward this business. Additional mistrust has come from exaggerations of income from hundreds of leaders who have quit the busniess. You don't quit if the money is really there.

I don't know how long you have been in this business, but I've been around for over 30 years which has enabled me to see first hand all the lying and deception that has gone on in systems. It's all very well documented and can be found all over the internet as you well know.

I agree with you that the approach is different than the invitation. And I also agree that many times all we do is just strike up a converstion to get a feel for the person and whether we will want to go the next step. When it come to seeing the plan, whether it's one on one, living room or a business preview at larger venue the prosect should know it's Quixtar/Amway.

Ive lost track, but of the many many IBO's on my front line fro years of sponsoring, not to mention the hundreds of downline team approaching and 3rd party approaches, I can't remember not telling everyone it was Quixtar or Amway. It can be done, but of course to do this you have to get good at it and I did!

It has always been my feeling that IBO's shouldn't be allowed to approach anyone until they really know what they are talking about. Some systems say it's almost ok to say anyting as long as you can get someone to a business preview. Wrong! Wrong Wrong! There should be zero tolerance for practice that could damaged the reputation of this business. No other company would let someone represent their products and business in a way that turns people off!

All together now. What is that has given Q/A it's bad reputation all voer the world...curiosity approach, tools scams, over stated income etc, etc! In other words ...SYSTEMS!

Bridgett said: May 28, 2008 12:02 PM | #

graniteman,

All I am saying is that it is not all systems.

How do you think it is for us IBOs in systems who are doing everything ethically and above board?

How do you think it's been for us to have to deal with all the negative that some systems have caused?

Do you think it's been a walk in the park?

No, it certainly has not.

I'm just asking you to not making these sweeping zealot-like statements. I understand the frustration you are feeling. I am not a new kid on the block and have had to deal the results of these unethical people for a long time.

But I am not in favor of the idea to ban all systems, because I do derive value (as it relates to builidng my business) from my system.

I see the benefit of having a separate entity outside of the Corporation, just like Rich and Jay had a separate entity outside of Nutrilite.

It's not THE system that is the problem. It's the perversion that has occured with some system that is the problem.

That's all I'm saying.

TWS said: May 28, 2008 2:23 PM | #

graniteman,

Are you suggesting that a non-system IBO has never used a bad approach? Never over-stated their income? Never claimed they were "gonna be millionaires tomorrow" and 2 weeks later flaked out? I recognize that some changes need to be made, but to say non-system IBOs are completely void of responsibilty...

You make it sound like ALL systems teach their downline to lie, cheat, overstate incomes, etc. etc!

Granted there are some bad apples, but I have met, talked with, developed a relationship with too many good, quality people at Emerald and above that have incredible character and intergrity. Are they perfect, of course not! But in my personal experience, I have seen too many positive examples to buy into the "Systems are Evil" nonsense.

TWS said: May 28, 2008 2:59 PM | #

The PDAP wasn't designed to eliminate all the business expenses for IBOs or to directly control the profit centers built into training systems.

Here is a link to clear up any confusion: https://www.quixtar.com/Documents/IWOV/VIS/010-en/pdf/IBO%20Support/PDAP07-Q-A.pdf

If an IBO doesn't want/value certain conferences, training material, websites, etc. than the IBO needs to evaluate what to use and what not to use. In my opinion, the cost of the training could use some tweaking, but the biggest factor is the lack of profit most IBOs fail to create. To take responsibility that THEIR business stays in the black.

Tex said: May 31, 2008 2:30 PM | #

TWS,

My LOA is not accredited, but I know what the process fixes and what it leaves broken. It fixes relatively minor issues and ignores THE major issue, the tool profits.

visioneer,

Prove it. After all, I could claim I flew to the moon in a space suit, would you believe it just because I stated it on a blog? Does he count "speaking fees" among his tool profit?

TWS said: June 2, 2008 3:07 PM | #

Tex,

This is the third bullet from the PDAP doc.:

"- Using professional development compensation plans that are transparent, written, and contractual."

Doesn't seem like an issue that's being "ignored".

In my experience, people (IBOs) don't have a problem with profitting from tools. As long as you're upfront about the options with their personal business expenses and explain the equal opportunity to take advantage of system profit centers, they're fine with it.

In my opinion, THE major issue is IBO profitability.

TWS said: June 2, 2008 3:47 PM | #

For the record,

My upline diamond makes a majority of their income from their Q/AG business. It's not MY business to prove anything. But when you have multiple sources saying the same thing, either they're ALL wrong, or maybe, "it is reasonable to conclude", that bullet point #4 is flawed.

visioneer said: June 2, 2008 11:25 PM | #

Tex,

It's also not my business to prove anything.

However, have you counted the cost of airline tickets, the cost of the venue, and the cost for a hotel stay? Have you also factored in that many times a speaker will take time out of their schedule to fly to a location and speak in front of a group where they have no one there in their downline?

Tex said: June 5, 2008 11:58 PM | #

TWS said:

June 2, 2008 3:07 PM | #

There's a huge difference between words and reality. The reality is I asked Quixtar within days of the PDAP coming out 2 years ago whether IBO's at less than a Platinum level would see the "transparent" compensation plans. The answer was no, and I don't think this has changed. In fact, I doubt Platinums know how the Emerald compensation plans work, the Emeralds know how the Diamond compensation plans work, etc. Until IBO's see ALL of these plans, little has been accomplished, except fooling people like you the necessary changes have been made.

I agree IBO profitability is the major issue, and the major problem is tool prices, which cause net losses, typically until the Platinum level has been reached. Does this sound like a good business model to you? Not to me, either.

If you or anyone else wants to talk about this issue in a more "real time" manner, visit my blog: http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/

Tex said: June 6, 2008 12:04 AM | #

TWS said:

June 2, 2008 3:47 PM | #

For the record, many upline Diamonds also used to say zero profit was made via tools. Why should we believe them now?

I don't know what bullet #4 you're referring to, but I agree that numerous diverse sources have indicated MUCH more is being made via tools than A/Q by the upline, so it's hard to believe they are ALL wrong.

Tex said: June 6, 2008 12:14 AM | #

visioneer said:

June 2, 2008 11:25 PM | #

The problem is it's already been proven how much is being made on the tools. You didn't answer the question regarding "speaking fees", by the way.

However, have you counted the cost of airline tickets, the cost of the tickets, and the cost for a hotel stay? I've seen estimates on the venue cost, and the result is the upline makes BIG bucks when the ticket money comes in and the venue cost is subtracted. Have you also factored in that many times an IBO will take time out of their schedule to fly to a location and listen to the upline talk about their lifestyle, as if it came from A/Q, and most of it in reality came from the tools?

You are missing the concept. I know it costs money for the upline to travel, to pay for the venue, hotels, etc., etc., etc. The question isn't about paying for those legitimate costs, the question is how much money is left over after these costs. How much of the lifestyle comes from tools versus A/Q. THAT'S the question.

TWS said: June 6, 2008 7:18 PM | #

Just because your upline diamond lied about tool profit doesn't mean every diamond is a liar. Why should we believe them now? Because I trust them. Because they've never lied to me. Because I've developed a close relationship with them over the past nine years. Because they have invested interest in me and my families success. From early on I was aware of the tool profit at platinum. The speaking circuit at emerald. And part owner at diamond. Equal playing field. Another revenue stream if you earn it.

I was refering to your bullet point #4 (9 steps to truth) Your conclusion that all systems are the same. I'm not saying my LOA is perfect, but I get sick tired of hearing the constant slam of the evil system. Your comments obviously expose some significant differences. I just wish people would quit lumping everyone into one category.

visioneer said: June 6, 2008 7:31 PM | #

Tex,

If the majority of income comes from A/Q then the question was answered.

visioneer said: June 6, 2008 7:36 PM | #

Tex,

You are also missing the concept that people do think for themselves and if they feel they are deriving a value from the function they will keep going. If they aren't they won't.

Bridgett said: June 8, 2008 4:46 PM | #

visioneer,

With all due respect, some Systems, mine included, do state that in order to be successful, an IBO has to do XYZ.

And I am of the opinion that all the bells and whistles my particular system offers in not necessary for all IBOs, at all levels of their career with this business opportunity (in other words, they may need something now, but not later; and visa versa).

As an example, I do think that having a new IBO attend a "major function" is beneficial to:

--get the big picture

--have a sense of belonging

--to see that they are not the only ones who are attracted to this opportunity

--to check out the leaders of the organization and see if they are worth listening to.

But, I also see a danger in "plugging them in" and requiring them to partake in all the offerings of a System (functions, CDs, voicemail, books) IF they are unwilling to do the work to make a profit--such as retail products and expose the business opportunity to others.

One can get lost in a system, and can lie to themselves, thinking that they are "doing the business" when they aren't. The above-mentioned offerings are helpful for personal growth. But it is my opinion that attending functions month after month, year after year, without making money, is dangerous to one's self-image.

I find that an IBO making money is far more “fired up” than any major function. And an IBO not making money, yet attending meetings and listening to their CDs, gets really bummed out and discouraged after awhile.

Selling a product is the fastest and easiest way for an IBO to make immediate income. And having them keep some of the profit, rather than rolling it all in to their System, is a smart thing to do for their self-image and for their belief in this wonderful business opportunity.

You get an IBO making a NET profit, even just a few hundred bucks a month, they will:

A) be motivated to move more volume through personal use and through retailing.

B) have belief that this a viable business opportunity, which will make them WANT to share the opportunity with others.

And I believe it's the job of the Sponsor and/or Platinum to help an IBO make money that they KEEP as soon as possible. Just like I've been taught to expose the business opportunity for a new IBO's sphere of influence, I feel it's my responsibility to expose the products for a new IBO's sphere of influence.

It's MY responsibility. Not my Diamond's.

And, I am not of the opinion that the most successful way to get customers is the “leftovers” of those who don’t want the business opportunity when you show the Plan. That has not been my experience, and maybe that’s why IBOs don’t have the amount of customer volume that they could.

TWS said: June 9, 2008 4:25 PM | #

Tex,

It seems to me that the contracts were designed more to help eliminate the legal issues between some IBO leaders, not to make them "transparent" to the world. Even Q/AG is using a third party to handle the contracts to protect privacy. I personally don't think its necessary to make privately held companies share their comp plans and inner workings with the general public.

TWS said: June 9, 2008 5:45 PM | #

Tex said:

"net losses, typically until the Platinum level has been reached." This has'nt been my experience at all!! Its comments like this that convince me that the view or perspective you have on this business is in no way universal.

Its been my experience that if an IBO has a solid, balanced business with some retail clients they will net profit well before 1000pv. In some cases, an IBO can cover ALL their expenses ($200-300) with just retailing to clients. Granted, this hasn't been as common, but thats where this biz is heading.

Thanks for the invite to your site. I think I'll stay on opportunityzone for now. But I'll keep it in mind.

Tex said: June 9, 2008 9:52 PM | #

TWS said:

June 6, 2008 7:18 PM | #

You and many others have been misled by their smiling faces. How much does your upline charge for various parts of the system? Where are they, because all I see is all of them hiding in the shadows.

I'm also "sick and tired" of literally millions of current and former IBO's/Distributors getting ripped off over the past several decades for billions to tens of billions of dollars.

Tex said: June 9, 2008 9:55 PM | #

visioneer,

The fact is the vast majority of income is from the tool profits, not A/Q.

I get the concept of value. I've seen several "generations" of IBO's come and go, after they were drained of their finances. Including me, except I haven't left.

j4.1776 said: June 10, 2008 11:46 AM | #

come on tex, youre a big boy (or girl)

let me know if any of this sounds familiar:

please read carefully the Disclosues and Arbitration Agreement that follow before signing. The Disclosures section contains important inforamtion about buying or selling independently produced Business Support Materials, and the Agreeement section affects your legal rights.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BUY BUSINESS SUPPORT MATERIALS TO BE AN INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNER ("IBO").

...

PURCHASE OF BUSINESS SUPPORT MATERIALS AND SERVICES IS STRICTLY VOLUNTARY. NO ONE MAY REQUIRE, OR IN ANY WAY PRESSURE YOU TO BUY OR USE SUCH ITEMS.

this is the Business Support Materials Arbgitration Agreement ("BSMAA") documentation. and there are 10 points to it that explain everything that you and all the others who complain about the tools what they are and how they can be used, but are always to the descretion of the ibo themself.

now, before you pull out your super torch and start trying to blaze me about how no one ever reads it, that is the challenge of the individuals who do not read it, but sign....

...right under...

I HAVE CAREFULLY READ AND UNDERSTAND THE BUSINESS SUPPORT MATERIALS ARBITRATION AGREEREMENT, AND IN EXCHANGE FOR THE RIGHT AS AN IBO TO BUY, SELL, DISTRIBUTE, RECIEVE, AND USE BUSINESS SUPPORT MATERIALS, I AGREE TO ABIDE AND BE BOUND BY THE TERMS SET FORTH HERIN AND TO ARBITRATE ANY DISPUTES UNDER THE IBO ARBITRATION RULES.

no one can make you purchase tools.

there are profits in the tools, and that is different among LOA's

if you complain because you are not part of it, then grow your business to qualify for them.

personally, i have never had my upline call me and ask why i did not purchase every/any cd/dvd/book this week

people do what they want to with thier own monies. as adults, we make it, and we spend it. this is an expensive hobby, just like all hobbies, but in comparison to the business norm...if you were to go and open a store, it is extremely inexpensive to start and keep opperating.

if they dont like the tool thing, they do not have to buy them, they are optional.

the "system" or LOA that they sign under cannot mandate they buy thier tools, but are suggested because they have been proven to work according to what that particular LOA's success.

if they choose not to use them or even choose to become an independent, that is thier option. of course, soon after, they will be hiring in motivational speakers without the experience in this industry to teach who sell "thier" tools of success and motivation.

so there you have it. leave the people who cut thier own cd's, etc. based on thier success in this business who are teaching in this business out of it and go after all the other guys who dont even offer a success plan in thier own industry where they are going to teach "you" how to do what they have done.

there is also a dvd...*uh oh, a toooooool* that you can "voluntarily" purchase should you choose to, actually from Quixtar, called ""facts about quixtar" where the tools are compared to another great speaker.

*quickly reaching for the kevlar vest and fire jacket*

TWS said: June 10, 2008 3:31 PM | #

Tex,

I obviously have a lot closer, trusting relationship with my upline diamond than others, which I’m grateful for. But your tone is always of US (“regular” IBOs) vs. THEM (cowardly kingpins). Truth be known, I would consider myself one of “them” instead of one of you. No, I’m not a diamond yet, but I’m higher than a platinum. Just because most IBO leadership doesn’t participate in blogs doesn’t mean their hiding in the shadows. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes than most realize. Some even question how effective debating with critics in this forum really is. Which I question myself at times. But if nothing else, at least BOTH sides of the conversation will be read by others. And I believe some of your views/concerns are shared by others so its good to dialogue.

TWS said: June 10, 2008 3:43 PM | #

Ada-tude Moderator,

I apologize if this thread seems to be going off topic but I think its of value. Would it be possible to evaluate/modify the frequency of posting comments? I think it would be beneficial to have quicker responses for the bloggers, in order to have more "real-time" dialogue. Thanks for your help and all that you do.

Editor's Note: We appreciate the robust dialog in Ada-tudes and are doing our best to publish comments as quickly as possible. The staff member who most closely managed the Opportunity Zone has moved on to another position within Quixtar so we are currently down one staffer. It all comes down to resources! We hope to refill her position as soon as possible.

visioneer said: June 10, 2008 4:46 PM | #

Tex,

It seems kind of pointless to keep talking to you as you are going to believe what you want to believe vs. what other people are saying.

You seem to believe that no one else can tell the truth but you.

Bridgett, thanks for your comments! I think you were referring to my post on June 6. My point was simply that people are not robots and can think for themselves.

All, please read IBOFB's comment at New online courses prepare you for selling on June 8.

Once again, thanks to Amway Global/Quixtar for these courses that will help all of us!!

TWS said: June 10, 2008 4:56 PM | #

Bridgett,

I just had a great conversation with my upline diamond about being proactive with a new IBO and setting goals based on their time commitment and finances. Explaining to them what its going to take from a product (retailing) standpoint, the importance of taking advantage of the various training, and being in constant communication with you the upline and/or platinum. And after 6-8 weeks evaluating the progress and making necessary adjustments. And let them know that you’re there to help them, but if they are unwilling/unable to stick to the game plan, for what ever reason, that you don’t want the business to become a negative (financially, emotionally, or otherwise) Having this conversation upfront will allow you to meet them where they’re at. Applying gentle pressure where needed. Giving them space where needed. All the while developing the relationship and eliminating frustration for yourself. (Not counting on someone who isn’t ready to build it) I think most IBOs are more focused on “getting people in” versus truly leading and mentoring people.

Tex said: June 11, 2008 3:28 PM | #

Bridgett said:

June 8, 2008 4:46 PM

I agree with what you are saying, the problem is your upline (not just yours personally, but also generically) don't teach in this manner. Therefore, your bright little part of the universe isn't changing the overall scenario.

However, the internet is exposing the common upline practice of pushing the entire tool system HARD, and is where we all need to be focused, or else your little spot of sunshine will no longer have products to allow your existance.

TWS said:

June 9, 2008 4:25 PM

If they want MY money, want to refer to me as their "teammate" and "business partner", and make most of their lifestyle from tools instead of A/Q (whether they brag about their lifestyle or not), they most certainly MUST disclose at least a rough estimate of tool profit versus A/Q profit. I don't need "inner workings" of their tool profit plans, and don't consider the above rough estimates to be close to that.

What has changed about morality and ethics since Rich DeVos' 1983 "Directly Speaking" recordings? NOTHING, in my book.

TWS said:

June 9, 2008 5:45 PM

Maybe you need to get out more. I've seen several former Platinum IBO's indicate this is normal. I never said it was universal, and even you agreed the actual level of retailing doesn't support your theoretical situation.

Bridgett said: June 12, 2008 1:42 PM | #

Visioneer (6/10),

I agree with you. I used your comment as a launching pad for the "lurkers" of the Internet.

TWS (6/10)

Yep. When we sponsor people, we are making a commitment to help them. And in the manner in which you described is a dandy way to do that.

Tex (6/11)

My upline doesn't teach in this manner? LOL.

Yes, my part of the universe is bright--quite bright in fact.

TWS said: June 12, 2008 3:11 PM | #

Tex said:

June 11, 2008 3:28 PM

"they most certainly MUST disclose at least a rough estimate of tool profit versus A/Q profit." --- Fair enough. Considering the fact you've experienced IBO leaders lie about ANY tool profit, I can see where you're coming from. But, like I mentioned, I was aware of profit centers built into the system well before I ever reached platinum. And once I was platinum, the tool profit enabled me to pay for some travel expenses for distant groups, buy small inventory of "hot" products to provide quick access for my downline, and have common tools and materials readily available. And knowing the additional profits available at emerald/diamond (including speaking fees) the vast majority of profit is not from the system. Is it pausible for the largest pins to make 51% from tools, by default, yes. But that is in no way the norm.

Tex said: June 12, 2008 4:48 PM | #

j4.1776 said:

June 10, 2008 11:46 AM

You don't know how many times I have seen that tired answer. The truth is most uplines view the rules as "details" that don't need to be followed, and all you have to do is listen to them, as they know how to help the new IBO become successful. After all, the upline says, we don't make money unless YOU do, which is a bald-faced lie, as they make BIG bucks from tools, especially the IBO's they convince to "tool up." Sound familiar? Reality is a far cry from theory. The sentences you repeated are NEVER used or referred to after signing up, and the entire culture is the IBO's who aren't involved with tools are ignored. You may be able to identify an exception, but an exception doesn't mean it's normal. I've read and talked with MANY current and former IBO's back up my personal experience.

Tex said: June 12, 2008 4:51 PM | #

TWS said:

June 10, 2008 3:31 PM | #

I used to have what I thought was a lot closer, trusting relationship with my upline diamond than others, which I found out was an act on their part. If your relationship is so close, how much money do you and do they make via the tools? Let's see how "close and trusting" they are when you provide this information and ask them this question.

Tex said: June 12, 2008 4:54 PM | #

visioneer said:

June 10, 2008 4:46 PM | #

It seems kind of pointless to keep talking to you as you are going to believe what you want to believe vs. what the facts are saying.

You seem to believe that no one else can tell the truth but you.

TWS said: June 12, 2008 6:53 PM | #

Tex,

I never doubted that you've seen several former Platinums indicate that net losses until Platinum is normal (in their LOA). And that's probably one of the reasons they're FORMER Platinums.

My statement about your perspective not being universal was to simply illustrate that we're both describing the same business within our own reality. It just appears that you're convinced that no other reality exists but your own, tool scams and all.

I have never seen an IBO in my LOA that is a solid 1000pv pin not net a profit (running 1000 pv consistantly). That usually includes a balance of personal use, retail, and a few downline. The theoretical situation I was referring to was an IBO doing "above average" retailing and maiking a profit, even after their expenses from the system, without sponsoring any downline. Which will likely be the norm in the next 18-24 months.

Bridgett said: June 13, 2008 2:35 PM | #

Tex said, "The truth is most uplines view the rules as "details" that don't need to be followed, and all you have to do is listen to them, as they know how to help the new IBO become successful."

I agree with you. Is it a good thing that people (myself included) have cheapened this business opportunity and have treated the contract with the same weight as a Costco/Sam's Club membership application. No.

Here's the deal though, Tex. There is zero power in blaming other people and not taking responsibility for one's life.

I speak from experience. I've done it both ways. And I've found that though it may be painful at first to realize how I've more than contributed to the results of my life (the fruits), there is great freedom and empowerment in doing so.

So I would urge IBOs to take responsibility in ALL aspects of their lives, rather than tell them that it's their Upline's fault, it's Amway's fault, it's the Systems' fault, it's their parents', their spouse's, their church's/temple's, God's, satan's,the government's, the economy's fault, their boss's fault, their neighbor's fault, their family's, their brother's, their sister's.

I have such great respect for men and women who say, "Ya know what? I really messed up. This is how I messed up and I'd like to tell you about what *I* did to make a mess of my life so that you don't make the same mistakes that I've made."

visioneer said: June 15, 2008 7:43 PM | #

Tex,

I think if you read your own posts you would see how your last statement to me really applies to yourself.

I think you're "me" vs. "they" mentality ultimately works against yourself as you now are working at dividing this business instead of unifying it.

I understand your position, but as I see it, your constant "tool scam" comments only serves to help our detractors. When you make these sweeping comments that doesn't apply to every system, you make it seem like you'd be making a mistake to buy a tool.

In the system that I'm in, the tools have been very helpful in building an organization as well as retailing to customers. They are also very reasonably priced.

Tex said: June 16, 2008 12:45 PM | #

Bridgett said:

June 13, 2008 2:35 PM

The suggestion at the end of your post is EXACTLY what I chose to do, to point out the tool scam to other IBO's and prospects. If all we do is put our head down and only pay attention to our personal business, we could soon find ourselves in the same position as the UK IBO's did, essentially shut down by the government. If we don't stand up and tell the tool scammers to knock it off (as the UK government has mandated), the scam will continue until the U.S. government takes action. I'm not willing to allow hundreds of thousands of other prospects/IBO's to experience what I experienced, getting ripped off by tool scammers, hoping the U.S. government will eventually get a clue and do the right thing.

If you were standing at a train station and got stabbed, would the jury accept the excuse from the attacker that it wasn't his/her fault, but that you were "standing in the wrong place?" Would you return to the train station and allow the same person to stab someone else?

Have you never heard of righteous indignation? Get a clue.

visioneer said:

June 15, 2008 7:43 PM

I think if you read your own posts you would see how your last statement demonstrates you don't have a clue.

I think your "what, me worry?" mentality ultimately works against you as you now are working at destroying this business instead of unifying it. I'm not interested in dividing the business, just taking away the tool scam. If some of the scammers quit as a result, I'll hold the door wide open for them as they leave.

I don't understand your position, as I see it, my constant "tool scam" comments only serves to help prospects/IBO's. I couldn't care less about the "detractors", I care about the IBO's getting ripped off. When I make sweeping comments that doesn't apply to every system, any system can prove my comments don't apply to them. After 3 YEARS, there has been ONE taker (iteamusa.com, have you read their site?) It IS a mistake to buy a tool at current prices. What are YOUR system's prices for the tools?

Tools are NOT "reasonably priced" if the profit made from them is the vast majority of profit, and the profit is kept secret from IBO's. Chances are VERY good your organization hasn't had much growth in the past dozen years or so. Take a look at the size of the business. It has been flat or shrinking in North America for this period. For every smiling face you see in the Achieve magazine, there is another one with a shrinking business, or the growth would be positive. Don't you get it?

visioneer said: June 17, 2008 8:23 PM | #

Tex,

I don't have our "what, me worry" attitude as you put it, if I did, I wouldn't be commenting here.

I know you've heard this from several other IBO's who comment here, that we have knowledge that tells us that our LOA's tool profits are not the majority of their income.

Also, the corporation as a whole hasn't grown that much over the last few years. In fact, there aren't very many businesses and industries that have grown a lot over that time period. I am not in favor of just maintaining, but in light of the airline, mortgage, automobile industries, etc. I think we've done fairly well.

It's only a mistake to buy a tool because you say its a mistake. I purchase the tools because I derive a good value from them.

Finally Tex, I've written in another post that I would like to thank you for the times when you've defended the corp. I'd like to believe that you and I are on the same side. However, you do have a very antagonistic attitude against anyone that doesn't share your same beliefs.

I wish you the best, and I hope you will start to build your business again.

Bruce Williams said: June 24, 2008 6:07 AM | #

graniteman,

A diamond in the WWDB group stated in a prospecting training tape, that if you are asked whether or not this is Amway the only answer to give is, "Yes this is what do you know about it?" I know this for a fact, as I heard the recording.

My only comment about the person who denied that the Quixtar opportunity was in fact the Amway opportunity, is that this was a person who didn't know how to handle questions or objections and got scared and denied the relationship. Personally, I was a little irritated when Amway was repackaged as Quixtar as I am very loyal to the product brand that Amway (now Alticor) created.

Also, I like WWDB and enjoy going to the functions and listening to the tapes. However, I do agree with what Bridgett said, "First Circle--making your circle, your business, profitable, so that you have something worth duplicating."

Tex said: June 30, 2008 2:21 PM | #

visioneer said:

June 17, 2008 8:23 PM,

If you're so confident how much your upline makes on tools, and is less than their Amway profit, why not ask them directly and see what answer you get. Make sure you include ALL tool income, books, CD's, web sites, voice mail, Open, Seminar, and Major Function profits.

I'm not on anyone's side, I'm on the side of the facts and the truth. If that's what you're interested in, then we're on the same side.

rocket said: July 4, 2008 11:42 AM | #

Not so fast there Steve.

Looks like you might have some more stick handling to do yet.

Anyone going to update your sites advising of the appeal? I'm sure if it was the other way around, and you were appealing, it would be plastered all over everywhere...

Andrew MLM Novice said: September 23, 2009 10:14 AM | #

Hey everybody, How do I become a distributor for Amway.

Hi Andrew, you can go to the following url to learn how to join the business:

http://www.amway.com/en/start-a-business/getting-started

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