New online courses prepare you for selling

Monday, April 14, 2008  by Alison Hague
Category: Announcements, Products, Balanced Business, Business Support Materials, Training, selling skills, sales, learning

Have you seen the latest Quixtar University offerings? The Artistry Time Defiance online course launched just last week, highlighting the age-defying benefits of Artistry Time Defiance products and how to help your customers select the right products for them.   

Also new is the Sports Nutrition course. Learn how to identify the three types of customers most likely to buy sports nutrition products, as well as which products to recommend to these customers.

In general, the product expertise courses on Quixtar University strive to do one of two things. Some courses focus primarily on preparing you for selling products. You learn key benefits of the products, how to match these products with actual customer needs, and see some selling dialog that you can model in your own selling conversations.  Both the Artistry Time Defiance and Sports Nutrition courses fall into this group.

Other available courses focus more on selling and follow-up skills. The Artistry Purse-to-Purse course is one of these. You learn a method for selling conversational or experiential products in your everyday interactions with others. You can easily transfer the skills learned in the Purse-to-Purse course to other experiential products, such as XS Energy Drinks.

Let us know what you think of these two new courses, as well as any others available in the Product Expertise group. What features were especially helpful?  What information wasn't necessary? What do you need more of?  

Comments

David Edmondson said:
April 15, 2008 10:43 AM | #

Allison,

I took the Sports Nutrition course. It was very informative and really fine tuned my retail skills. The info and how Q segmented it was very helpful. I have taken several of the courses, I really got good value from them all. Send a thanks from me to them. It has truly gotten better and better.

Sam Percopia said:
April 16, 2008 11:19 PM | #

I would  listen to Quixtar University but my upline says I shouldnt listen to you guys. I dont understand why my diamond doesnt want me to. He told me all the info is on the cds and the books he sells me. Is that true???? I am totally confused..

Enjoying the Journey said:
April 17, 2008 2:08 PM | #

TO: Sam Percopia

Hey Sam, You should listen to both Quixtar University and the CD's and Books.  I'm from a great system that has there own CD's, books, and Functions and openly support QU and everything they do.  Don't just listen to just the QU because they have little to no field experience but great at product knowledge and generic sales techniques. While the Books, CD's and Conferences will show you more taylored techniques and how to market products and grow large and successful business.  There are pros and cons to listening to just one source of information both from the corporate (QU) and System side. You have to be able to listen to both and find the information that works best for you and your team. There is nothing that I have seen that contradicts the Business Support System. QU is only product and sales knowledge nothing more.  It’s up to you to make that decision.  LTD going to 100k strong

Utah said:
April 17, 2008 5:01 PM | #

Sam Percopia, by your 2 previous posts here, you are obviously being sarcastic.

You have promoted QU and have told the corporation that they need to be the only source of training. Perhaps it was just someone else using the same name.

rdknyvr said:
April 18, 2008 1:05 PM | #

Enjoying the Journey,

.

The Quixtar University courses are developed and "field tested" with the input of experienced IBOs who have demonstrated success with the product lines in the relevant courses. They are designed for people who are beginners with little so called "selling skills" that they are aware of (actually, we all are selling something every day of our lives). And as someone with 17+ years of success in sales and sales management outside this business, I find the QU courses to be excellent, subtle in how they present potentially complex selling skills, and totally above and beyond any sales training offered by the Systems. And it's free, which is more than any of the Systems can say about their training.

.

And QU is also about PEOPLE SKILLS, if you listen carefully with an open mind and apply what they are teaching. :)

rdknyvr said:
April 18, 2008 1:15 PM | #

Utah,

Perhaps Quixtar SHOULD be the only source of training on how to retail, sell products and build strong First Circles, ie. Personal Profit Centres. For all the money that the Systems charge for their motivational training activities, they do precious little of value in the area of product knowledge, Customer development and sales, and Customer Service, including customer service to one's network.

QU is demonstrating a far more in-depth and professional approach to training, especially with the hiring of Alison Hague and the excellent support that's also coming through on the product sales kits from the people in Quixtar Communications.

Utah said:
April 19, 2008 11:27 AM | #

rdknyvr,

In the past 16 years, Q/A has done little to provide product or retail training, in my opinion. That has traditionally been left to upline direct or platinum distributors/IBOs. That has occurred at no charge and has been encouraged by both the corporation and the Systems. The corporation has had written information to back it up, but that has been about all.

The concept of providing more info from the Corporation is good. It should be two sources: one product knowledge from the corp., and two retail training from the field from those with success. Bringing in outside sales experts, with no real experience moving Amway or Quixtar products will not have as good of success, and will further create a gap between the field and the corporation, in my opinion.

The purpose of the systems is to build people, not products. It took 5 years of "system" for me to quit my job and become self-employed in the filed I was working. For almost 12 years, I haven't had a "job". And that was from knowledge, not system money or corporation bonuses.

graniteman said:
April 21, 2008 11:25 AM | #

Allison,

'Why didn't you post my response. I think it was on the 16th or 17th. Have the moderators decided not to post anything derogatory about systems.  

LIke I said in my comment you won't post, while QU is a step in the right direction, if Amway really wants to help IBO's sell, the reputaion and the reason it has gotten so bad needs to be dealt with. The general public and former IBO's which there are many, aren't going to buy from us until they know the system abuses have been STOPPED.

Amway needs to get rid of accreditation and take over all the tools so number one, they really are affective, and number two, the temptation for system abuse is removed. Also, if there is no money being made off tools then there will once again be credabilty to the various pin levels. With stacking etc no one is  impressed with what we see in the Achieve.

editor's note:
graniteman -- we have no record of an earlier comment from you.
If anyone has submitted a comment to the Opportunity Zone that has not been published, and you have not received an email from us explaining how it violated our comment policy, please email us at help@opportunityzone.com or resubmit your comment. -- Katie Pearsall, editor

rdknyvr said:
April 21, 2008 12:00 PM | #

Utah, I'm mostly in agreement with you, except that the "outside sales experts" are experts at building training courses. They are bringing in, consulting and field testing with IBOs who have a proven track record of excellence in retail sales, AND IBOs who are new and have NO experience. The first group helps inform the proper development of the courses, and the second group helps pilot or field test them for effectiveness.

Based on the 3.4% of "traceable" retail sales that has existed in the past, there would seem to be not too much expertise in the Systems around driving retail sales or ANY sales to non-IBO Customers.

If you're following the current discussion threads at IBOFIGHTBACK's site and SPEAKING OF AMWAY, over the weekend and today, the ability of the Systems to effectively get the training job done right is the subject of some very intelligent starter posts by both hosts.

Quixtar can't wait forever for the Systems to get over their self-interest and blind spots, and KUDOs to Alison in TRAINING, and the Sales Kits developers and writers in COMMUNICATIONS for doing the job right. :)

Bridgett said:
April 21, 2008 1:46 PM | #

Lately, I've learned a lot about retailing from my system.

We have weekly conference calls on how to market, how to follow up, how to grow a client and expand them in to other products and product lines. And, then how to help others do the same. We (our Platinum team) learn from each other's successes and failures.

It's one thing to have the knowledge, like QU offers. It's a whole other ball of wax to implement that knowledge and to be CONSISTANT in the effort it takes to be successful. The Corp isn't going to hold me accountable, encourage me, and coach me (to tweak the little things that I may be off on). That's where the systems come in.

*********************

And Utah, thanks for "outing" Sam. This is the danger of the Inernet. We really don't know the character of who's writing, do we?

Bridgett said:
April 22, 2008 2:14 AM | #

graniteman said, "The general public and former IBO's which there are many, aren't going to buy from us until they know the system abuses have been STOPPED. "

Today I got a brand new customer from "the general public", and systems and system abuses didn't seem to come up in the conversation.

Over the last five or six days, I gave her samples, gave her product info, gave her a wonderful PDF that came out years ago entitled, "Nutrilte Urges Customers of Supplements to Ask the Right Questions", and she ordered all four products that I sampled out to her. Products that she will order on a monthly basis--supplements and Edibles.

Why would a CUSTOMER care about system abuses?

NormaConnlly said:
April 22, 2008 8:10 AM | #

I am happy about the info provides re protein shakes VERY helpful I really appreciate learning when to use the products i have been doing Yoga and realize i was ignorant as to how to use the cla etc.  Proverbs 3;13 Thanks

graniteman said:
April 22, 2008 12:49 PM | #

Bridgett, (April 22)

I've been around this business for over 30 years and I can't count all the times I have had to apologize for the bad name the systems have given Amway. You and I are veteran IBO's that can handle objections and turn things around to get the new customers etc, but the new folks may not have the same results.

What I'm really getting at is that we don't need another UK situation right here in the US.

Just recently I prospected someone who turned out to be a new IBO already in the busienss. This person went on say that he is not in the A/Q business, but is in, I won't name the system. Doesn't Amway still pay the bonus, make the prodcuts and set the rules etc.  To the customer it's deceptive to say we're not in A/Q. You're right Bridgett, customers don't care about systems , but they do care about honesty and integrity.

Of course this is just one example of the many misleading things that are being said out in the field. The new IBO's aren't making this stuff up on their own, they are still hearing it from the leadership.

Just last week, I got my hands on a communication from a system leader that said that stacking is still the correct way to structure the business.

Amway is trying so hard to turn things around for all of us yet the systems just can't let go of their hunger for power and tool profits.

Here's the good news. As we get more great programs like QU, IBO's will see the superiority and real value of the info coming from Amway versus the systems. After all, how much personal growth and leadership training does one need to get someone to try our prioducts and convince a few people to become IBO's to do the same. It cerainly isn't worth the hundred if not thousand of dollars IBO spend on sytsem tools, especially when you can get all kind of personal growth stullf for much less on line. Also, the day may come when Amway will "again", make available cd's and dvd's of IBO stories of sucess for a fraction of the cost, available on a need basis rather than system standing order. Plus, these will  be IBO's with a real business!

Keep up the great work Alison and Amway. You are making a difference! However, more needs to be done to stop the continuing exagerations and deceptions of systems.

Utah said:
April 22, 2008 4:08 PM | #

graniteman,

Interesting. You mean that Q/A tossed out TEAM and still has the same problems? They tossed out Jerry and Mandy and group in the UK and still have the same problems?

I would not be self-employed if it wasn't what I learned from the "system".

While I would agree there are problems on several fronts, I think you are blaming too much on the system.

That said, QU is a good idea. I am also glad Bridgett is getting more training from her "system".

graniteman said:
April 23, 2008 3:44 PM | #

Utah, 4/22

Unless you were around in the 70's or early 80's you haven't had the opportunity to use the great tools and go to meeting's Amway provided at that time. The tools were far superior to system generated stuff and the meeting created a feeling of being part of the Amway family. Everyone got along and was excited no matter what the line of sponsorship we were all actually proud to be in Amway. I can tell you this from experience. The interesting thing is that the flat growth in the US parallels the surge in systems, the use of the curiousity approach, and virtual end of Amway support. It took Amway over 30 years to finally do what  should have been done years ago. Get back to teachinhg what really gets results in building the business as well as recreate the pride of being in Amway.

Many might be in denial, but this is the biggest reason for the transformation back to Amway and more Amway support.  I has become very clear that "leadership development" is over rated. It is a great way though, to sell  tons of tools. The road to becoming a leader is endless. How convient, and oh, how profitable for the system leadership. Hey, if it makes someone feel good to listen to an upline go on and on month after month about whatever, thats fine. It's your money, but it has become quite obvious to the corp that all this leadership stuff doen't translate to increased sales of Amway manufatured products. The numbers don't lie.

Keep the support coming Amway!

Bridgett said:
April 23, 2008 10:58 PM | #

graniteman,

For the record:

*It's my System that has ACTIVELY promoted First Circle for over a year and a half now.

*It's my System that paid for an extravagant expo and training and breakout sessions with co-teaching of Corp employees and Diamonds.---taking the initiative and not waiting several months for the Corp to put together their National Spotlight Tour.

*It's my System that's come out with attractive retail/marketing tools. So neat, that they were taken back to the Corp by some employees who attended our Expo/Training, to duplicate for all IBOs

*It’s my System that has an official game plan for new IBOs (and old ones) to EFFECTIVELY and EFFICIENTLY get customers, service them, follow up with them, and expand them in to other product lines.

*It's my System that has the QBOB as part of the presentation for its Opens

*It’s my System that posted the press release on their website AND sent a voicemail to the entire organization, announcing the name change to Amway the day after the Corp announced it, in JUNE 2007

*It’s my System that has stuck around, making changes with the Transformation, and not bailing like others have.

*It's my System that takes flack from not just the "bad" System IBOs, but all you anti-System IBOs who like to make blanket statements that all Systems are crap, all Diamonds are greedy little buggers, all System IBOs are deceitful, and all Systems should be banned.

Graniteman said:
April 24, 2008 10:56 AM | #

Bridgett,

Glad to hear some systems have come around even if it did take all this time. The same things you talk about that your "system" is doing is not new. Years ago many talented IBO's would share their ideas with the corp which in turn were shared with everyone. A high tide lifts all the boats.

We can still have line of sponsorship support with proven IBO ideas and tools that come through the corp. This way everyone benifits and it take away the profit motive from uplines so there is much less chance of abuse etc. This company can't afford to take any more hits like the UK or another group of expelled diamonds. We are under a microscope.

I'm sure glad Rich and Jay shared their wisdom and expertice with everyone for the good of the entire Amway family, not just a few groups. It's exciting see the corp heading in that direction again.

Bridgett, which system are you in. Sounds like your very proud.

Utah said:
April 24, 2008 11:44 AM | #

Bridgett,

Thanks. I didn't get involved until 1991, so I don't know whether Graniteman has a point or not.

I didn't find out about the name change until Aug. 10th, of 2007. My upline platinum had heard a comment from someone that said they would do all they could to stop it. I wasn't aware of all the blogs, and didn't go to the Amway blog to find out earlier, nor had I searched the web.

It is my opinion, (again), that if Q/A had given us the choice we had in 1999, none of the things that happened on Aug. 9th, would have happened. They could have been solved. That single mistake, with others than followed blew out tens of thousands of Ibos, and my entire LOS, between my sponsor and Dexter. The only System I have left is Team, and they no longer provide anything re: Q/A.

graniteman said:
April 25, 2008 12:01 PM | #

Utah,

don't you think you could build the business without a system. Thousand of IBO's built solid "real"  businesses before there were systems. As long as Amway steps up and gives us the meetings and tools we need, which they are now starting to do again, you can do it too. Just think how great it would be to not have some upline pushiing on you to go to another expensive function or buy more repetitious tools. You Can Do It!

Amway will always be there and will always act in our best interest. You never know for sure about a system. Look whats happened in the UK and other countries. The US could be next. Systems are under a microscope. The FTC is watching very closely.

Jeffrey said:
April 25, 2008 2:03 PM | #

Amen, graniteman, you are absolutely right on target! Everything you say is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Keep it coming!

Bridgett said:
April 26, 2008 5:08 AM | #

Graniteman,

I've posted many times here at OZ and have never mentioned my LOA. My point is not to bring attention to my specific LOA. My point is to point out that not all "systems" are evil.

********************************

Utah,

There seems to have been a lot of things not communicated to IBOs in your LOA. In hindsight, I look at things, like the latest--the icing on the cake, the final straw I think--was an email that was issued to all Platinums back in July about the no "stacking" policy. I didn't think anything of it, 'cause it didn't make any sense to me.

But I DO understand how "sheltered" an LOA can be. The name change in June is what brought me to OZ. I had no idea of this world.

In regards to Dex being your personal sponsor, that's just plain ridiculous. I mean, obviously the Corp underestimated the loyalty IBOs have to the Upline. Totally not prepared for many to resign. And then to leave "orphaned" IBOs. Ug.

I think the orphaned IBOs need to have some special concessions made for them--maybe the six months/two years waiting period to transfer should be readdressed for those IBOs who haven't resigned?

Tex said:
April 26, 2008 12:40 PM | #

Bridgett,

Everything the upline (...) is doing is window dressing, if they are still making most of their profit from the tool system (audios, books, web sites, voice mail, the various functions, etc.). In fact, unless they drastically reduce tool prices, the net effect of First Circle will be increased IBO retail profit that can be scooped up by the upline, as a higher percentage of IBO's will be able to afford the above tools. In other words, the carrot without the stick will not work. We need both.

editor's note:
This comment has been edited in order to adhere to our civil discourse policy.
-Katie Pearsall

Tex said:
April 29, 2008 4:31 PM | #

Bridgett,

The problem is the pricing of the various systems is very similar, so unless the "un-evil" systems are MUCH less efficient at delivering the tools, the tool profits are similar to the "evil" systems. Do you agree or disagree?

Also, A/Q has had mass resignations before, and should be able to tell me who my upline Platinum is, but it's been 8 MONTHS now and I still don't know. I think something else is going on, I just don't know what it is.

Bridgett said:
April 29, 2008 7:12 PM | #

Back to the topic of this blog post:

I like the QU lessons when they DON'T have people role-playing. So this latest one, the Sport Nutrition one, I could throughly focus on the info, rather than being distracted by the less-than-stellar acting.

Very good info. Very helpful. Thank you Alison. :)

Tex said:
April 30, 2008 6:39 PM | #

Bridgett,

Yes, let's get back on topic, since you couldn't "sell" (notice the tie-in to the thread topic?) your "good vs. evil" tool profit idea.

I like the role playing, I don't look at the role playing as tryouts for a Shakespearean play or an Oscar nomination, but as a means of teaching. In fact, it is also useful to role play within your own organization and practice before going out with the "civilians." By the way, while checking the spelling of "Shakespearean", I came across a hilarious site: http://www.mainstrike.com/mstservices/handy/insult.html

Jeffrey said:
May 2, 2008 12:52 AM | #

Tex, there is no such thing as an "un-evil" system. They all charge hundreds, even thousands, of dollars for information stretched out over a period of several years that could be given to the new IBO in 2 to 3 hours on the first night of them being in the business.

Bridgett said:
May 2, 2008 1:17 PM | #

regarding Jeffrey's May 2nd comment:

This is not my experience in my System.

I believe in a partnership, not an either/or proposition.

I am very pleased and have gleaned great value from both what my System offers and what the Corp offers, specifically Quixtar University, which is the topic of this post. :)

Emet said:
May 3, 2008 6:02 PM | #

Funny, I've been in the business since 1970 and while I remember some cute new product kit stuff, like an inflatable can of Deter deodorant, and mimeographed plans for leadership training, I don't recall the

wonderful educational stuff from the company in the seventies and eighties.

The best product training tool that we got from the company was a white softcover book that was in the kit and which had product demonstrations for many products.  Each week we'd order another new product and practice the demonstration.  Better yet, we tried  it in comparison to the competing product(s) that we owned or that we borrowed from our friends and family.  We involved everyone in our experiments and had a great time. And we did the arithmetic ourselves to determine the cost of Amway products versus Brand X -- a practice I've continued.

We sold ourselves FIRST, and then told other people about the products we liked.

Every time I read about product training, I am reminded of Charlie Marsh. "This is a tooth brush.  You put the tooth paste on the tooth brush." At that time, the tube came with a key so that you could roll up the tube and squeeze out all of the paste.  That probably needed another training class. As Charlie said, read the label and you'll get excited.

What comes through to me in these exchanges is not a lack of product TRAINING but a lack of product USE.

Complaints about "systems"? I like systems. I use systems on my job.  We have checklists to insure that nothing important is overlooked. I have systems for doing Su Doku puzzles. I have a system for brushing my teeth, and for almost everything else that I do routinely.

If we didn't agree that a red traffic light meant "stop", we'd have to stop and wait at every intersection.  

When I taught economics, I had a system for conveying information and knowledge to my students, and tests to insure that my students were learning.  If they didn't, it reflected in their grade. And they paid for the course, whether they got an A or a C.

However, if you don't like your upline's system for building the business, do it your way. They won't put an F on your report card, especially if you are doing more than 7500 PV each month.  They won't send some muscular guys to break your legs because you are not on Tape of the Week, nor withhold your bonus because you didn't come to the rally.

The Pimsleur System for learning a language uses spaced repetition. You could get a cheaper version that tells you vocabulary and grammar once -- but few people would learn the language.  Certainly my children and grandchildren would never have learned English without repetition.

So why should explaining something to someone once suffice in meeting your requirements to train your IBOs?  

Bridgett said:
May 5, 2008 1:33 PM | #

Emet said, "What comes through to me in these exchanges is not a lack of product TRAINING but a lack of product USE."

Emet, I appreciate your *entire* comment. I would like to pull out this one part though and say that I disagree. :)

I did a quick calculation and see that in our household, we use about 52 products from quixtar/amway global every day.

I've been excellent at personal use. The skill I've missed, not focused on, was then transferring that knowledge, that enthusiasm, to CUSTOMERS. I've been great at transferring to other IBOs. But now with the First Circle focus, we have many IBOs who like the products, believe in the products, but lack "selling" skills.

Things like:

1) Knowing the target audience for a product

2) Knowing how to start a "sales conversation" and LISTENING to people's needs

3) Using samples properly and effectively

4) Knowing two or three key benefits of a product and effectively communicating those benefits and features

5) Knowing how to "close" the sale--actually asking for the order

6) Following up, and continuing to follow up--KEY*KEY*KEY!!!!!!

7) Giving great customer service

8) Growing the customer (expanding them in to other products and product lines)

9) Asking and getting referrals

10) Offerring the business opportunity to those customers wh show interest.

I'm sure I've missed stuff, but that's just off the top of my head. :)

But like you said, everything is based on a system. Organization and a plan and the  *continual* action behind that plan.

graniteman said:
May 5, 2008 11:15 PM | #

Emet,

Charlie March became a crown.  The  simple demos must have been pretty effective! We didn't need thousands of dollars worth of tapes and meetings to learn these things either.  If being on the treadmill of personal growth etc turns someones crank, no one is going to try and keep them from spending their  money on the same things they heard and saw last month. Amway is finding that the number of people willing  to continue to spend that kind of money is shrinking big time. Enter QU, the FREEEE National Spot Light Meetings etc.

You're right. We should not confuse a system with motivational and training groups that didn't get the job done over the last 20 plus years.

Amway is going through this very expensive and painful Transition because they have found that so called leadership/ personal growth didn't translate into more products being sold. It's really that simple!

Keep the support coming Amway. I love the new film clip under "Manage My Business > Opportunity Overview> second video clip. This should be on the front page of the Quixtar/Amway site. Seeing this kind in support makes me proud to be part of this business.

Emet said:
May 10, 2008 1:25 AM | #

I love the free enterprise system. It allows Graniteman to have one point of view and me to have a different point of view.

Apparently Graniteman went to monthly meetings where he heard exactly the same thing month after month. If that were the case, I would agree -- stay home. Or better yet, draw circles and sell products.

I didn't have that experience. I loved the meetings.  I enjoyed traveling to different cities each month.  I loved driving to Charlotte four times a year.  Seeing the sun come up over the mountains while driving  I81 through the Shenandoah Valley was among the most awe-inspiring times in my life.  Driving long distances to meetings, talking with my kids and grandkids, or with my upline or downline, or listening to new tapes and CDs -- or old favorites -- I loved every moment.  Visiting with friends.  Hearing new stories from new pins. Being on stage to be recognized for our new pins.  Seeing our downline being recognized for their new pins. Hearing about new products.  Seeing new videos. Listening to our sponsors and our upline share insights drawn from their own experiences -- especially from Dex and Birdie -- was, to me, the high point of the trip .

I look forward to the next meeting, to sharing the excitement and the insights and the friendships. I go because I want to be there.  And I encourage others to be there as well -- but I've never made it a requirement.

The same with audios, videos, and books. I read constantly, and listen constantly to gain more insights. about the world, about people, and about myself.  And most of what I read and listen to is from outside of the Business.

I especially like the rally stories, about why people got into the business.  I only know about my own life experiences and so I welcome the opportunity to hear about the experiences and ideas of others.

We didn't get into The Business because we had a burning desire to sell soap or lipstick or echinecea.  Nor did we get in to get rich.  We saw the circles and thought we understood them and how somebody else could get rich -- just not us. We got in to buy great products at wholesale, to develop new skills and talents, to go to new places and meet new people.

It is interesting to me that the public agency that employs me also uses meetings and audio/video material for training and for the sharing of information.  I will even bet that the employees of the government agencies that are "investigating" the businesses in UK and India have received training through meetings and CDs and books and -- if they were lucky -- coaching.  And the people who led those meetings and provided those books, etc., were PAID.

As has been said -- those who can, do; those who can't, teach. And those who can do neither, regulate.

I wonder if they believe in free enterprise?

To Bridgett -- I loved to retail because I visited with a purpose.  That worked very well with cleaning and personal care products.  I'm a guy and I love makeup on women so I make a great audience, but as for knowledge about the stuff -- nope. Supplements -- love em, use em, have read books and newsletters and receive the BLI e-mails.  Enjoyed the product training from the company folks, and the shakes Doyle whipped up in Baltimore. You'll note that I haven't said much about selling the stuff because I still haven't gotten the hang of it.

You will also note that most of what I wrote is in the past tense, both because people have been referring to the good old days in the business, and because in the recent past I have focused on my family and my job, and not the business. But that is changing as I begin to bring my job into the retirement phase.  The things that I learned in the business helped to fuel my rise on the job -- but now is the time to revise my priorities.

I appreciate the support that the company is providing, and that my sponsors and my upline are providing.  I don't see it as an "either/or" but as a "together" as in "TOGETHER WE BUILD"

God bless...

visioneer said:
May 10, 2008 10:01 PM | #

graniteman,

While I agree that you don't necessarily need a training system to build a large business. I do believe it is necessary to hold it together. I've been involved in the business for 14 years in various stages of activity and inactivity, but I've always been profitable.

I have a core group of loyal IBO's who believe as I do that the system helps them to stay motivated and provides a part of the "glue" that keeps them in the business.

For myself, I've grown tremendously as a person because of what I've learned from our system and I'm still learning from it. My upline is constantly on the grow themselves and work hard at adding value to all of their downline. This is all because of what they've learned from the "system".

I was also in the business once before in the 70's and I remember a couple of meetings and some tapes, but nothing on the scale of what we have now through our system.

I believe Amway Global is on the right track with new products, new bonuses, more training, and an increased emphasis on the first circle. The partnership with our system has been excellent and I believe will continue to grow!

TWS said:
May 12, 2008 2:01 PM | #

I'm excited about the Sport nutrition training available on Quixtar University. The initial courses have been good, but its obvious by the improvements that QU is going to be a great asset for IBOs and generating customers.

I encourage all IBOs to take the time and take this course. It only takes about 20min and is well worth it. I have gone back several times just to reread through some of the points.

graniteman said:
May 12, 2008 2:28 PM | #

Emet and other like minded IBO's.

As I have said and as you yourself have agreed with, the motivation and so called personal growth programs offered by various LOA's have not translated into created the real skills needed to teach people how to better sell the products. Amway is a selling business first and somehow there is this image created by the supposed leadership developement groups that non-system people are in the soap business etc. I remember what Rcih Devos once said. We are in the soap business because people buy soap. This doesn't mean you can't specialize in certain products, but I wouldn't put down selling SA8 etc. When the economy is tight and customers are watching every penny, they will continue to buy the necessities rather than XS, or other non-essentials. Selling is required to make this business legal. The transition back to Amway and more focus on selling is most likely brought on by the pressure coming from the FTC as well as the UK issue.

There are too many people who get into this business, try it for a while and discover that it takes guts and drive to really make it work. Without those ingredients all the personal growth in the world won't help. Amway doesn't need anymore wholesale (personal use) IBO's. It makes the numbers look bad. These folks can be a wholesale customer and still continue to be motivation and leadership groupies!

Over 25 years of flat growth in the US, thousands of law suits, hundreds of platinums and above that have quit (which they wouldn't do if they were really making money) prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the motivational and leadership programs haven't worked for the most part.

I contend, that people that have built a legitmate profitable Amway business probably would have done so without spending thousand of $$ on tools as long as Amway was providing the same. At one time the company did, and it has taken all these years to realize they need to once again make available the tools that really make a diiference.

What Amway is producing now is far superior to what was availble years ago. But I can tell you that in there day the tapes, videos and company meetings were tools we could all be proud of and we didn't have to worry about the content giving Amway a bad reputation or misleading someone about this business.

30 years ago when there were still Amway tools and meetings available, I became a platinum in 9 mo's, a Ruby 6 mo's later and the next year borke 3 platinums and still maintained Ruby volume. We were a whisker from going diamond. For over 25 years we didn't miss a company sponsored travel seminar or Achievers.

My up line is also the upline of some very large systerm leaders. Yes, these people have uplines, and we know what their real Amway business looks like. It's amazing what tools profits can buy and the false picture these same profits can portray. If you don't have this info you wouldn't have a clue what is really going on behind the scenes. Some people are willing to do anything to make a buck. This facade can make a lot of high pins look alot better than they really are.

Thank god  Amway is getting back to the business of being a sales centered opportunity. Thank you Allison for all your hard work on QU. I would like to see more video clips  from IBO's and how they are approaching new potential customers and IBO's! What are they saying. What is really working out in the field etc.

Jeffrey said:
May 13, 2008 6:56 PM | #

Graniteman, you are so right on target. My upline Diamond has had absolutely no growth for many, many years and is still doing it the old way. He has 5 major functions a year with tickets @ $120 a pop and the numbers have been declining for years. He is now in the process of getting accredited and I know that NOTHING is going to change. The biggest problem with most of the systems is that they charge thousands of dollars, but do everything but tell you exactly what you need to do to make the business work. I contend--as always--that acceditation is a band aid on a car accident victim. It simply won't solve the problem and management is still looking the other way.

I love this business and am totally committed to building it. Every day I do something to move my business forward. I cannot tell you how many horror stories I have heard about system abuses and outright lies. That hurts my business. There is a fairly new Diamondship in my town and I have already heard horror stories.

When the company finally steps up to the plate and says to the Diamonds: " You have one year to shut down your system" is when the growth will take off again. To the Diamonds that won't shut down their system: Buh-bye.

Does that mean that there will be no training? Nope. It means that the leaders will share their business building expertise with the company, and the company will release it in various media forms online and offline to everybody and we will all benefit. Then, and only then, will there be an unlimited future to this business.

Bridgett said:
May 13, 2008 8:12 PM | #

Graniteman,

No matter how tough times get, women will always use their Artistry (or whatever line they use) products. In fact, these "small items", just like XS, give people that feeling of luxury, as they can't afford a down payment on a house in tough economic times.

And when the world is falling apart around them, people start to look at what really matters, like their health, and start to invest in that, rather than their keep-up-with-the-Jones cars.

What got Amway to it's first 50 years of success (home care) will NOT be what will continue its success for the next 50 years.

Health & Beauty is where it's at and I am THRILLED that the Corporation recognizes this.

In terms of profit, one's food budget is far bigger than their home care budget. I eat every day--about five times a day. So does my husband, so do my two kids. That's 20 small meals.

I do laundry every two weeks. Six loads.

I clean my kitchen and my bath every two weeks as well.

We go through 3 SA8s a year, a green LOC every year, and a pink LOC every year.

We each have a least one of the bars for one of our "meals" per day. That's 162 BOXES a year.

Not to mention the 24 Perfect Packs (Double X, Balanced Health, Concentrated Fruits and Veggies), 16 bottles of Kids Vitamins, 24 bottles of Chewable Fruits and Veggies, and 8 bottles of Balanced Health (for the kids).

Haven't even mentioned our XS consumption. :)

While your customer (a family of four) is working on their box of SA8, I'll have sold my customer (a family of four) 54 BOXES of bars.

Singles, particularly guys, do not clean like families. Same with married no kids people. So that's a whole market that the Home Care line is just not a great fit. And there are a TON of singles, and married no kids, out there that I'd like to get some of their business.

I have no problem selling someone SA8 if they want it, but my time is very limited. So I'm going to go after the Health & Beauty customer. And sell 'em some soap after I get them hooked on the H&B products.

So thank you QU for helping us identify our target audiences for these Health & Beauty products and for helping us know and communicate the product benefits of the different products.

visioneer said:
May 13, 2008 8:24 PM | #

graniteman,

First of all, thanks for the insight you have in this business. I know that when you're writing a post it can be difficult to not generalize with "systems".

However, I would contend that you are generalizing on a number of topics.

1. System people are putting down selling SA8. This is not the case, its more a matter of using edible products as a lead in because the usage rate is faster and most people are already spending this money on similar products.

2. I have some wholesale IBO's who do not attend one meeting. They love the products and want to keep getting them. I think they are an important part to anyone's volume. I have never pushed them to go to any meetings.

You said it takes guts and drive to make this work, and that's definitely true. However the training by my system has helped many people develop that within themselves.

3. I think its a stretch to say that the flat sales you talk about are solely because of 'systems". There are many factors which contribute to the sales of any company.

4. My LOA has been very active in promoting retail selling and have held many contests at their own expense to promote prizes/recognition parties, etc.

Finally, I agree with you that Amway Global has to get back to being a sales centered business. Selling is very important to profitability and I'm glad for the training that QU is providing.

TWS said:
May 14, 2008 4:20 PM | #

Jeffrey said:

"The biggest problem with most of the systems is that they charge thousands of dollars, but do everything but tell you exactly what you need to do to make the business work."

I obviously don't know everything about every "system", but the leadership training I've recieved from my LOA have bent over backwards to layout *exactly* what needs to be done to make the business work. The problem is the vast majority don't DO what they're taught. (Myself included at times.)

I would be as bold to say my LOA (no I'm not trying to put down other LOAs) has blazed the trail in the First Circle Initiative and have for some time. At least in the 8 years my wife and I have been in the business.

graniteman said:
May 15, 2008 11:08 AM | #

visioneer

you raise some good points. Yes, there may have been some other factors as to the flat growth, but the motivational/leadership groups were far and away the biggest reason for Q/A's flat growth and I might add the biggest reason for the terrible reputation which developed over the last 20 to 30 years. Other network maketing companies during the same time periord had explosive growth. Check the internet blogs relating to the same period and read for yourself why people even stopped buying Amways great products. It sure wasn't price!

As far as "lead-in" products, there isn't a better procduct than the laundry and personal care. It is something that people know they need everyday and when we show them the quility and saving it's a done deal. They know they are spending "anyway money". Money they would spend anyway! Re-orders are not a problem if you have a ton of customers as we do. Figure out what the profit is with 5o customers doing 5o pv every month. We have more than 5o. It doens't take many IBO's doing that to have a great business where you are making $$$ not losing it! Too many IBO are taught the 2 or 3 leg stacking method where they don't make the kind of profit they should. Thats the reason for the high tunrover. Of course the reason systems like to promote this kind of business is there is more opportunity to get more people on tools. Most of these IBO's are nothing more than wholesale user being convinced that more tools and meetings will mean a sure life style like the rich and famous diamonds that look richer than they really are because of the profits from tools.

Jim Payne said himself not long ago that the new profile of IBO's will be one that has many more customers than IBO's. With on line ordering, the business is perfect for this kind of model and it's obvious from what the company is doing right now they a slowly but surely going to wean IBO's off there dependency on systems and  possible corrupt uplines like some of the leaders that have been terminated.

Enter QU, National Spotlight etc, etc! It's all freeeee!Amway is starting to get it right!

Bridgett said:
May 15, 2008 2:45 PM | #

graniteman,

You have customers ordering 50 PV EVERY MONTH with the Home & Personal Care products?

My experience is my customers order Home Care and Personal Care products every 3 months, at the earliest. And their orders do not total anywhere near 50 PV (more like 20-30 PV).

And these are family customers. Single people, it's more like every 6 months, if that.

But I can get SINGLES ordering 50 PV (initially 25 PV) of edibles every month.

visioneer said:
May 15, 2008 8:50 PM | #

graniteman,

I think we definitely do agree on various points, the most important is we both want this business to work for everybody.

We are also not going to agree on if systems have been to blame or not. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding 'lead in' products. I think it's is really up to the new IBO on what they want to promote. I've told potential prospects about our edibles, let them sample them, and they wanted to promote the laundry/home care line. I encouraged them and told them that's great!

Finally, our LOA/system has never endorsed stacking. In fact, I didn't even know what that was until last year and I've been around almost 14 years. Again, I think you are generalizing too much in your opinion of systems.

That said, I'd like to thank you for your loyalty and the belief you have in this business!

graniteman said:
May 21, 2008 2:53 PM | #

Visoneer and Bridgett,

SA8 and some fo the other home and personal care products are a very unique to Amway for the most part. Edible aren't for the most part. Time will tell who is right. Also, I'm willing to bet that in the very near future, we will be going the way of Amway Uk. A totally new business motel. It's gonna happen!

You better get good at selling!

TWS said:
May 22, 2008 3:25 PM | #

Just because some systems have done a pathetic job teaching their IBOs to retail and spend more time whining about the price of one product vs. focusing on what they can retail, doesn't mean all systems don't teach retail.

Since the day I got into the business my LOA has been a champion teaching the first circle, before "First Circle" was cool. And with the transformation thats taking place, we are positioned perfectly to take advantage of the opportunity.

Bridgett said:
May 22, 2008 10:31 PM | #

Alison,

I wanted to thank you for no longer using "actors" for the most recent QU courses.

I think the pictures and printed dialogue work just fine. It gets the message across without the potential distractions of not-so-stellar acting. :)

Also, this way is much more efficient and economical. And you are able to make changes (like when the whole Artistry Essentials replaced the three skin care systems) quickly and at virtually no additional cost (other than a voice over person, if there is one).

Great, great, great. Thanks again!

Tex said:
May 31, 2008 2:40 PM | #

Jeffrey said:

May 2, 2008 12:52 AM,

The only "unevil" system I'm aware of is iteamusa. Go to http://www.iteamusa.com/iteamusa/visitors4.cfm?visitor3=Learn+more...  and check out what they believe in.

Jeffrey said:
June 3, 2008 7:15 PM | #

I met and talked briefly to Brad Doyle, founder of iTeam, last year at convention. While I admire him for what he is trying to do, I still stand by what I've said before about systems. This business is so simple, everything you need to know to get started can be learned in one evening. Yes, ongoing training and motivation is nice, and sometimes, like with the Ribbon program, or Artistry Skin Care, ongoing training is critical. Much of that training can be gotten from QU and from the literature from each respective product line. Most systems don't tell IBOs what they REALLY need to do to become profitable in the business. Instead, they insinuate that "you cannot become successful without being on the system" and they promote everyone getting on standing order CDs and selling tickets to major functions. They try to get people to believe that the more tickets you move, the more successful you will be in the business. While that may be true to a point, most people reach burnout with the ongoing system way before they ever become profitable in the business. Consequently, many of them quit, so you have to keep bringing in more people to get on the system than you have going out the other end. That is partly where the bad reputation comes from. Most of the people in my group that were on my upline's system have quit. The ones that were most committed to product self-usage and getting customers are still around. I've been around for a long time. I know what I'm talking about.

Bridgett said:
June 3, 2008 9:06 PM | #

Tex,

You ARE kidding, right?

This iTeam in not LOS specific.

They are tapping in to the ENTIRE pool of Quixtar IBOs and charging them $25 a month.

For what?

Is the founder an IBO? The website goes in to how he's a professional speaker and a sales trainer.

He's a master at selling stuff to NWM/MLMers.

And some of the information on that website (on the Founding Principles page you link), that they claim as facts is out right wrong.

Brilliant marketing on his part--making a Quixtar-specific website to sell his wares.

TWS said:
June 4, 2008 6:42 PM | #

Jeffrey,

I appreciate your point of view. And hopefully with the transformation, the "First Circle" initiative, new products, etc. it will encourage ALL IBOs to put proper emphasis on individual profitability. Having a solid retail component to your business.

I also appreciate you stating MOST systems, instead of ALL systems. But in all do respect, I think your view on a good, quality training system is a little naive. Granted, this business truly is simple. Create volume and teach others how to create volume. But even that can prove to be a challenge.  In my opinion, "ongoing training and motivation" isn't just nice, its essential. Until someone's had a very large organization, its hard to comprehend all the dynamics that can take place with this business. If this business was only about products, yes, Q/AG would probably be able to support all the IBOs needs. But this is a business with PEOPLE moving PRODUCT using technology. The PEOPLE part is what takes the "ongoing training and motivation". :-)

TWS said:
June 4, 2008 7:21 PM | #

There have been a number of companies that have developed and marketed tools, websites and other resources for IBOs with no LOS affiliation. This could be a good option for those that are dissatisfied with past/present systems. Which is fine.

But this seems to compare apples to oranges. How can a third party company teach me how to accomplish something they've never done? Providing resources is one thing, but to help me achieve my specific goals in this business is a whole different ball game. It seems a little too convenient, their "founding principles" seem to mirror all the ISSUES anit-system IBOs have.

But like I said, if there's an IBO thats looking for support, this could be a perfect match. They could build this business and show us all how its done, and end the system controversy once and for all.

Tex said:
June 6, 2008 12:19 AM | #

Jeffrey said:

June 3, 2008 7:15 PM | #

If the system isn't costing much, it can't do the IBO much financial harm. I think you are overestimating the importance of retailing and underestimating the importance of a system. Both are needed in moderation, the amount of each being different levels for different IBO's.

I've been around a while as well.

Tex said:
June 6, 2008 12:50 AM | #

Bridgett said:

June 3, 2008 9:06 PM | #

You ARE kidding, right? They are tapping in to the ENTIRE pool of Quixtar IBOs and charging them $25 a month. ---- "This" iTeam in not LOS specific, but I believe most of the IBO's using it are in Brad Doyle's group. Many IBO's plug into systems that are not directly related to their upline. I do.

For what? ---- You ARE kidding, right? I don't know, why don't you sign up and find out?

Is the founder an IBO? ---- You ARE kidding, right?

The founder, Brad Doyle, is a Diamond IBO. You really should do some simple googling prior to asking simple questions.

The website goes in to how he's a professional speaker and a sales trainer. ---- You ARE kidding, right? Of course he's a professional speaker and sales trainer, plus he owns several non-A/Q related businesses, which have allowed him the option of not being concerned about maintaining his lifestyle via the tool scam. I have talked with Brad on several occasions, and know what I'm talking about, unlike you and Jeffrey.

He's a master at selling stuff to NWM/MLMers. ---- You ARE kidding, right? You haven't read his principles very well, have you, Bridgett?

And some of the information on that website (on the Founding Principles page you link), that they claim as facts is out right wrong. ---- You ARE kidding, right?

List what you think is "out right wrong", Bridgett. We can't discuss generalities, get specific.

Brilliant marketing on his part--making a Quixtar-specific website to sell his wares. ---- You ARE kidding, right? You don't even know what's being offered, yet you judge him as "selling his wares." If you had a similar questioning attitude about your own upline, Ron Puryear, then we would be getting somewhere. Why don't you send Ron the iteamusa Founding Principles, and see which ones Ron supports?

Jeffrey said:
June 6, 2008 4:52 PM | #

Tex, quit being so caustic and accusatory. You ramble on ad nauseam condescendingly like nobody knows anything but you. All I'm saying is that from my experience with my upline's system, it is VERY expensive and it does not even give IBOs the basic fundamentals of how to get started and get profitable in this business and MANY if not MOST other systems are just like it.  If your upline's system trains people how to get started and how to get profitable , then fine. Pay for it and get over it. All that most systems (my upline's included) do is to train people to get on the system, get others on the system, move CDs and sell tickets to major functions. The worst part is that it is in the process of getting accredited and I don't see anything changing. Most of the systems ruin the business. Period. Being on most systems is like smoking: If you like doing something that is killing you (or your business) and paying for it, be my guest.

Bridgett said:
June 7, 2008 2:36 AM | #

No Tex. I'm not kidding.

Why doesn't Brad state that he's a Diamond IBO on his webiste, Tex? Have you thought about that? You know that I'm a Queen of Googlers, so please...

For $25 a month I'll learn how to make money in the first 90 days (and beyond) by retailing?

The title of this post is "New Online Courses Prepare You for Selling".

Let's make it clear that it is FOR FREE, no cost, not one slim dime.

Thanks Quixtar/Amway Global. :)

j4.1776 said:
June 8, 2008 1:46 PM | #

i like it...  lol

bridgett = queen of google

and

pointing out the fact that FREE means you dont have to pay for it for those who have thier racing horse blinders on to only view what they piont thier heads to.

free < $25 and is not leeching off other IBO's businesses.

ibofightback said:
June 8, 2008 10:11 PM | #

Early in this thread some points were made about systems being more for *maintaining* Amway businesses rather than initial growth. I'd agree. There mostly about building sustainable depth.

A question for the anti-system folk, one I've asked elsewhere and never got an answer.

How many "non-system" folk have qualified at Founder's level for their highest achieved pin level?

For Diamonds and above, I can't find a single one. Anyone?

Tex said:
June 9, 2008 10:00 PM | #

Jefrey,

Haven't you ever heard of righteous indignation? There's no better example of a reason for it than the tool scam.

I know your system is expensive, all of them that I'm aware of are, except for iteamusa.com. That's my point, if the systems cost less, IBO's could be in a net profit scenario sooner. The scam has been shut down in the UK, and it's past time it should be done here in the U.S. as well.

Editor's Note: This comment has been slightly edited to comply with our comments policy.

Tex said:
June 9, 2008 10:07 PM | #

Bridgett,

No Tex. I'm not kidding.

Why doesn't Brad state that he's a Diamond IBO on his webiste, Tex? ---- I don't know, why don't you ask him?

Have you thought about that? ---- Yes, I figured the reputation of the business has been hurt so bad by the tool scammers, he doesn't want to make that a big issue.

You know that I'm a Queen of Googlers, so please...---- Well, you didn't google that one very well, your "excellency."

For $25 a month I'll learn how to make money in the first 90 days (and beyond) by retailing? ---- As I said before, I don't know what you get for $25/month, and apparently neither do you.

The title of this post is "New Online Courses Prepare You for Selling". ---- As if the title of a post has anything to do with the thread discussion after the first couple of comments.

Let's make it clear that it is FOR FREE, no cost, not one slim dime. ---- Let's make it clear you often get what you pay for, and the site may not be confined to retailing only.

Thanks Quixtar/Amway Global. :) ---- Yes, I've received value from the QU courses I've taken, but that is only one aspect of the business. There are MANY others.

Bridgett said:
June 10, 2008 11:36 AM | #

IBOFB,

I too would like some stats regarding success rates.

Can a person build a Diamondship AND maintain a Diamondship without a system which includes things like meetings, audio info, voicemails, and books?

I'm not saying that everyone's goal or desire is to build a business of that size. But if it were, could they do it without some sort of a system AND maintain it?

I'd love to know Diamonds, in this market (N.A.) who've done that.

Anyone have info on that?

Tex said:
June 11, 2008 3:34 PM | #

ibofightback said:

June 8, 2008 10:11 PM

How many "non-system" folk have qualified at Founder's level for their highest achieved pin level? For Diamonds and above, I can't find a single one. Anyone? ---- Although I am not "anti-system", just anti-system scam, anyone who qualified at these levels in the first half of the 60's did it without a system, at least without the tool scam systems we are using today.

Bridgett said:
June 12, 2008 1:47 PM | #

(regarding tex, 6/11, 3:34 comment)

Okay.

Thank you.

Any examples more recent than the Beatles Era?

Tex said:
June 12, 2008 4:59 PM | #

Bridgett said:

June 10, 2008 11:36 AM

My opinion is a system makes it easier for the owner of ANY type of business, including this one. Even if it were possible to maintain a Diamondship without a system, why wouldn't someone take advantage of a system? An analogy would be using a hammer instead of a nail gun. Sure, houses have been built using hammers, but why wouldn't you use a nail gun if one was available? The only reason I can think of is the source of nail guns is too expensive for the carpenter to make a profit, at least until they have recruited enough other carpenters to sell the nail guns to as well. Sound familiar?

graniteman said:
June 12, 2008 8:02 PM | #

Bridget and IBOFB, June 10th

All one has to do is look at all the Amagrams and Achieve magazines to see how many diamonds have left the business over the years. Almost all of them were in one system or another.

I know many IBO's of different levels that have never missed a travel seminar or achievers invitation and they are not in any BSM group. I personally made it to 28 straight travel seminars and achievers. There are, as you should know, lots of IBO's below diamond that make much more (PV income) than many diamonds do. If the truth could be exposed, it would show that most of the system leadership relies on tool money to sustain their lifetsyles and claim it's the system that has helped build the busimess. How can 2 or 3 legged platinums make any (pv money). The promise of tool money of course. History is very revealing! New IBO's are oblivious to all this. Systems are well orchestrated scams as was proved in the UK and other countries. In those countries the truth has been exposed and in many cases the business is thriving with the new non- system business models.

Like I've said before, I have been around the business for over 30 years and still have most of the old Amagrams and all of the achieves. It would take you a little time but going through all these will prove how many system daimonds ( and especially platinums)have come and gone. If they were really making solid (pv income) they never would have quit.

When the old Amway was providing  tools and the meetings, this business was exploding and it was a lot more fun for everyone. Additionally, we didn't have to lie about what business we are in. Systems, the curiosity invitation and overstating income along with proclaiming the busiess can't be built without a system are the reasons A/Q has developed such a bad reputation and had so much legal trouble. Should we list all the lawsuits against the various systems and system leaders! The internet is full of this!

Nothing wrong with support groups as long as Amway provides all the tools. Amway had available to order years ago great videos, tapes of diamonds and crowns success stories from all over the world. We had some of the best tapes on how to legally approach and invite prospects. We had exceptional tapes on retailing from people that actually were doing it big time. We had slides that explained the business like "More than Just A Living." We had great follow up videos like " The Best Is Yet To Come."

Why don't we have these things today. One reason! The systems don't want the competition. It would cut into their tool profits. It's that simple.

The FTC is watching closely and knows what happened in the UK. I hope we have the same restrictions as soon as possible! It would ---- me off to no end if we were shut down or got the same bad press as the UK because this company can't  control  what systems are doing out in the field.  It's Amways responsibility to protect their name and integrity. All IBO's deserve no less. Therefore, it's Amways business to run.

If you have a John Deere dealership and you don't tow the line, you done. It should be the same here! Zero tolerance for any activity that could put Amways or my business at risk!

YankeeIBO said:
June 12, 2008 10:09 PM | #

For all of you stuck on whether it is possible to build a successful business, today--not 5, 15, or 20 years ago--without a "system", you have to look at what a  system offers. That would be a "method", product training, mentorship and motivation.  Bridgett pointed out in a  post on TTAA that an IBO making money doesn't require the "motivation" of three major conventions a year. Cash flow is a pretty good motivator. Does the "system" show the new IBO how to make a profit quickly by selling product at retail cost--or is that done by the upline sponsor/mentor--and now QU? What about product training and sampling--between QU and the Spotlight tours, and trying these for yourself, where does the "system" come into play? What about meetings and opens? The internet can accomodate these so much easier than brick and mortar venues--and at little or no cost. Have any of you checked out the Ning.com community sites that were highlighted in the May Achieve? You can create a closed community for your downline, and post anything they need to know on that site. There is constant interaction on blogs and forums--and groups can be set up for specific purposes--like Artistry sales or Nutrilite sales. There is also a multi-media chat capability that can handle up to 20 people live at one time--you can use audio video and text, as well as share files and photos. The possibilities for keeping your downline organization motivated and up-to-date on all the news they need to know are incredible. Diamonds can create YouTube videos to post in their Ning sites, as well as audio files--AND THIS IS ALL FREE!!!

That was then, this is now--tell me why we need systems for today's Amway business?? BTW--I do belong to a system, and only because it offered me some business advantages I wouldn't have had without it--but those are quickly dwindling, along with the value I receive from my membership and function dollars. Systems are not well suited to deal with downlines that are scattered over a wide geographical area--the internet is. As soon as Q/A makes a sanctioned online plan presentation available to us through the main site, I don't need my system anymore. I've got enough CD's to last me a lifetime, and the money I would have spent on majors and monthly fees can go to the bottom line--and might even create one!

graniteman said:
June 13, 2008 1:55 PM | #

Well said YankeeIBO June 12th.

It's time systems stop being so narcissistic and start being a total Amway team player and do whats good for all IBO's. With high gas prices etc I can't imagine IBO,s continuing to buy non-essential things like system tool when, as you say YankeeIBO, so much could be done for all IBO,s for almost no cost and probably be more effective than systems as well.

Systems had 30 years to prove their value and after all that time there is still huge turnover and the average IBO income continues to be very low. That is why the corp stepped in and promoted first circle.

So called leadership and personal developement is no substitute for great product knowledge and excitment about superior products. It's just refreshing to see Amway once again take the leadership role in running this business!

After all, like the Judge said at UK trail, at the end of the day, Amway is repsonsible for the behavior of it's IBO's. I think from now on the corp is going to take that to heart. They really can't afford another UK in the U.S.

Accreditation will become meaningless when more and more IBO's find  they are getting  more help in building their business from Amway for free and additionally is availably to all IBO's everywhere.

Tex said:
June 13, 2008 4:56 PM | #

Bridgett said:

June 12, 2008 1:47 PM

As these types of groups are the exception rather than the norm, and by definition are less visible, I can only think of examples such as The Big Apple.

Tex said:
June 13, 2008 4:58 PM | #

YankeeIBO/graniteman,

Agreed. The only part about the UK judgment I don't care for is zero profit from tools. I believe the profit motive would create better tools, as long as the LEVEL of profit was transparent and reasonable.

Bridgett said:
June 13, 2008 11:25 PM | #

graniteman said (6/13), "So called leadership and personal developement is no substitute for great product knowledge and excitment about superior products. "

Absolutely. And I believe that Amway is getting better and better, particularly with Quixtar University and the National Spotlights, regarding product knowledge and product excitement.

So I guess I wonder if Amway is doing a great job at this, then it would be redundant for Systems to do this.

So I prefer to use my System and my Upline for things that the Corporation can't/doesn't/won't offer.

As an example, I just listened to a CD from a CURRENTLY QUALIFIED Double Diamond in our System (we only recognize current pins, not highest achieved) do an amazing talk on the art of conflict resolution. Seeing that he has a few Diamonds in his organization, an EDC, dozens of Emeralds, and hundreds of Platinums, I’m pretty confident that there have been relational conflicts in his organization over the years. That’s life on planet Earth.

I want to hear what he has to say about THAT, not products.

Yes, we make money moving products. But to build AND HOLD TOGETHER an organization of people requires more than product knowledge, IMO.

If I'm going to spend time with leaders of leaders--Emerald, Diamonds, EDCs, Doubles, Triples (which I have in large gatherings and very small gatherings) I would prefer to get their take on other matters than how to demo toothpaste and SA8.

Personally, I think that's the Platinum's responsibility. An Emerald has duplicated himself. Let the Platinums take on that role, and leave the organizational-building and maintaining to the higher pins.

I’m aware that there have been horrible atrocious unethical borderline wicked abuses with some LOAs. Personally, I have not experienced such things with my upline nor my LOA. And I appreciate and value what they have offered and continue to offer me. And it’s MY choice of what I choose to take advantage of their offerings.

Tex said:
June 16, 2008 12:53 PM | #

Bridgett said:

June 13, 2008 11:25 PM

Sure it's your choice whether to take advantage of the uplines' offerings. But most other IBO's have never owned a business and the upline promotes themselves as having all the answers, such as conflict resolution. It doesn't make sense for an IBO not to take advantage of this information. What the IBO doesn't realize is how much of their uplines' profit is from the tools versus A/Q. How much did that CD cost you?

Have your upline resolve this conflict for me: How can your upline make MUCH more money from tools, on the backs of your IBO's (and keeping them in a net loss until a high level of PV is reached), not admit it, and get to sleep at night?

visioneer said:
June 17, 2008 12:39 AM | #

graniteman,

The question that IBOFB posed was how many non-system Diamonds have qualified at the Founders level. I think you would agree that an IBO with a Founders pin most likely has a very well structured business. I don't know the numbers on that, but I think it raises a good point. That is, systems are extremely helpful in keeping a business together.

My personal testimony is that the IBO's in my organization who have stayed loyal to this business through many years and are still active have either attended a major function, or were a part of the system in one way or another. I don't believe that they would have stayed that way had they not taken advantage of the conventions, and other things available to them through our system.

Please remember, not all systems were created equal. As I wrote in an earlier post, the system I am a part of has very helpful tools that are extremely reasonable in price.

I also agree with Bridgett, if you believe that Diamond and above is a goal that everyone can shoot for, I would want to know HOW that person thinks versus how to do an SA8 demo.

YankeeIBO

The internet cannot substitute for the motivation and inspiration you get from a major function. The number of major functions a year may be up for debate, but you cannot deny that major decisions are made at major functions.

What has a greater impact on someone? Going to an NBA game and sitting courtside? Or sitting at home and watching it on your computer monitor?

Bridgett said:
June 17, 2008 12:54 PM | #

Tes said: "Have your upline resolve this conflict for me:How can your upline make MUCH more money from tools, on the backs of your IBO's (and keeping them in a net loss until a high level of PV is reached), not admit it, and get to sleep at night?

My Upline doesn't make MUCH more money from tools, on the back of my IBOs and yada yada yada, Tex.

I have said this to you for over a YEAR now--online and to your handsome face.

The bigger question I'd encourage you to ask is: Have YOU resolved YOUR conflict within YOU?

Peace brother.

graniteman said:
June 18, 2008 1:55 AM | #

Bridget... conflict resolution would be a good topic to cover at system function. Have you read or heard about all the law suits between the different leaders within the various systems.

Visoneer...At  one time Amway made available for all IBO's everything you are now getting from your system. At one time Amway ( Corp) was the system and had their best and fastest growth in the US at that time. Many, many IBO's qualified as founders and above, althought there was no award by that name then.  You have only been involved with a system so you only have that perspective, which is unfortunate for you.  You should know that there are hundreds if not thousands of IBO's that have discoverd that there are other options for building the business besides being part of an expensive system.

Keep your eyes  and ears open as things are in the process of changing. System function numbers are down and the Corp knows why. Amways knows that as the sytsems are drying up, the company needs to fill the void. In other words, if you haven't noticed, Amway is returning to the responsibilty of running the business again.  They aren't going to take any chances of a UK in the USA.  

Other  then tool profits, systems have a terrible track record for teaching IBO's how to make PV income. These are facts. The reason speakers at function talk about things like " Conflict Resolution" is because so many IBO's are upset about all the money they have lost!

Tex said:
June 18, 2008 8:12 AM | #

visioneer said:

June 17, 2008 12:39 AM

Another good question is how many system diamonds are founders. Not many, meaning the systems are as effective as you think they are, and what your upline would like you to believe they are. The reason they LOOK effective is because of the MA$$IVE tool profits that prop them up.

Are your IBO's more loyal than the 40% of the IBOAI that quit last year, and the many other higher pins downline from them that quit? I doubt it.

What are your system's prices? Do tell.

You're supposed to learn how to think as a business owner AND do the demos. It's not either/or. As A/Q by rule is responsible for product information, it makes sense they are responsible for product training. As the upline is in the field, it makes sense to teach the business ownership concepts. The difference is one side produces training for free, the other makes most of their profit from the training itself.

I agree attending in person is much better than watching something remotely, but that isn't the issue. The issue is how much is charged and what is the resulting profit from the tools. Don't you get it?

Bridgett said:

June 17, 2008 12:54 PM

If true, then your upline should be shouting this from the mountaintops. Instead, Ron charges amounts similar to the other groups and hides in the shadows. Unless his production costs are MUCH greater, he is generating similar tool profits. He may be keeping more for himself or sharing more of it, but the "take" is simliar. Saying something doesn't make it true, actions (or in this case inaction) and facts speak louder than words.  

I don't have any conflict within me, all I'm doing is demanding transparency regarding tool profits with my "teammates" and "business partners." Why is that such a hard concept to understand? Do you understand what happened in the UK regarding ZERO tool profits? I don't agree with making tool profits zero, but it sure is transparent!

U.S. IBO's should be LIVID about this issue, but I know from experience most IBO's either quit and allow the scam to continue, or bend over and take it. Quite sad, really.

Tex said:
June 18, 2008 9:42 AM | #

Bridgett said:

June 17, 2008 12:54 PM

P.S. Not that longevity has anything to do with it, I've been at this for over THREE years, online and to you and other faces; handsome, pretty, and otherwise (not that the appearance of someone's face changes the facts).

Bridgett said:
June 18, 2008 6:13 PM | #

graniteman (6/18) said, "... conflict resolution would be a good topic to cover at system function. Have you read or heard about all the law suits between the different leaders within the various systems."

Yes I have. And the last "conflict" my system had was 13 YEARS ago, when a Double Diamond (at the time) couple, broke away and started their own system, because they were teaching their people to, in so many words, buy pins.

They were secretly teaching their downline to stockpile high PV/high ticket items, and then figure out later how to sell them. So there were false Direct Distributors being created, and false Diamonds being created--and a false Double Diamond being created.

Not only that, in their "new and improved system" they were charging more for tapes, books, etc., and three times what my system was charging for meetings.

The breaking away was the end of the conflict and a great thing to have happened for my system to be rid of that cancer.

I am 100% in favor of cutting the cancers out of the systems. I am not of the opinion that systems ARE the cancer.

visioneer said:
June 19, 2008 5:59 PM | #

Tex, sorry,I meant to say that every Private Company needs to disclose their profits, not Public Companies.

j4.1776 said:
June 20, 2008 8:40 PM | #

well put bridgett.

i agree, and this has been my ongoing work in trying to get some people to understand that you cannot generalize thier oppionion because "thier" upline wasnt really all that duplicatable.

graniteman said:
June 23, 2008 12:45 AM | #

Bridget June 18th

You have a right to your opinion. How long have you been in the business and did you know that there are lots of IBO's who have been very successfull without using a so called "system."

Removing the cancer from systems without changes that style of building the business isn't possible. You can't change the stripes on a zebra!

More and more, Amway is getting back to supporting  IBO's with tools that help generate real long term pv growth. The fact that the Amway name is back, against the wishes of the systems and the IBOAI, is a strong indications as to who is running this business again!

visioneer said:
June 29, 2008 10:19 PM | #

Tex,

The price I pay on tools is my business, its none of your business. If I determine that a tool has value to me, and is fairly priced then that's what really matters.

You have no idea how much I spend so you have no basis, no facts to backup your "argument".

Our Free Enterprise system is based on the buyer making the decision if something is worth spending the money for it. It's the buyers responsibility to decide if a tool is worth the price, its the buyers responsibility to decide if a function is worth the investment.

Following your logic should all private companies be required to disclose how much of a profit they make on all their products? Then who determines how much is too much profit? You? Congress? I know of a local small traditional business where I know for a fact that the owners get a $400,000 yearly bonus. Is that too much? Or too little?

I have a suggestion for you. I read in an earlier post you made somewhere here on the opp zone that you started your own system. Why don't you build your business and make your system the shining example of how a system should be run? Amway Global could then hold your system up as a model for the rest of the business to follow. (I am not speaking sarcastically here, I really mean this)

I also wrote in another post that I believe that we're really on the same side and I wish you the best.

visioneer said:
June 30, 2008 12:15 AM | #

graniteman, It seems to me that we just have to agree to disagree. The bigger picture is that I hope ALL of our businesses continue to grow and prosper. I definitely wish blessings on you and your family.

Tex said:
June 30, 2008 2:15 PM | #

visioneer said:

June 29, 2008 10:19 PM,

Don't worry about sharing your tool prices, I already have a pretty good idea. Close enough to conclude your upline makes several times more on tools than Amway.

The problem with your logic is there are no other examples where these other business owners claim to be our "business partners" and "teammates", whereas your upline does make this claim, then turns around and lies (lack of material facts are lies) to you regarding their primary source of success.

I have been putting my own system together for a while, but since the May '07 UK blowup/virtual shutdown for over a year, and several U.S. Federal courts ruling against the rules as "unconscionable", I decided I didn't want to put a lot of my time, effort, and money at risk, nor risk these things with sponsored IBO's, so your suggestion is a poor one (I am not speaking sarcastically here, I really mean this).

As long as there these major issues, we are NOT on the same side.

visioneer said:
June 30, 2008 8:40 PM | #

Tex,

Well I guess that's as good an excuse as any I've heard.

visioneer said:
June 30, 2008 8:47 PM | #

Tex,

You don't even know who my upline is so your "conclusion" once again has no basis in fact.

TWS said:
July 1, 2008 5:06 PM | #

Charging similar amounts for training/tools doesn’t prove that the percentage of tool profit is larger than Q/AG profit, let alone many times larger.

Two factors to consider:

1). Creating Q/AG volume

Its common knowledge today that certain Ex-IBO Leadership had been complaining for years about ALL the products being WAY overpriced for IBOs and that retailing to a client is “impossible”. (Makes you wonder how they ever satisfied the client rule J)  With this type of mindset, its hard to imagine the teaching to new IBOs had anything to do with first circle profitability. Its easy to conclude that the average pv/ibo was extremely low, resulting in very low Q/AG profit over-all.

2). Sponsoring

Another big contributor to extremely high tool profit vs Q/AG profit is the stacking approach. Stacking with 2-3 legs not only is horrible for Q/AG profit, but can also provide a very high sponsoring rate. A platinum in my LOS experienced some of the “TEAM” approach directly, and described it as a sponsoring machine. Some of the lingo he heard went like this: “Go ahead and get in, plug into the system, and we’ll build your business for you.” When you offer something for nothing you’re gonna have a high sponsor rate. And with an above average amount of bodies “plugging in” to the system, it can create above average tool profit.

Having below average Q/AG profit and above average sponsoring rate equals percentage of tool profit being higher than Q/AG profit.

Tex said:
July 2, 2008 10:01 AM | #

visioneer said:

June 30, 2008,

The real business model being mostly tools and a little A/Q profit is not an excuse. It is fact.

I don't need to know who your upline is, your fear of sharing tool prices says it all.

Jeffrey said:
July 2, 2008 4:46 PM | #

Maybe we all should be totally transparent here and post how many personally sponsored IBOs we each have, how many are in our group, what our personal use PV is, customer info: how many, total customer PV and total cost and retail, what the average PV is per IBO, our total group PV, the highest level we have ever hit, when we hit it, and how many times we have qualified at that level since. If we're not willing to do that for the entire world to see, maybe we shouldn't blog.

visioneer said:
July 2, 2008 5:33 PM | #

TWS,

Thanks for the insight, good stuff!

Tex,

Nice try!

visioneer said:
July 2, 2008 5:36 PM | #

Tex,

In YOUR business model with YOUR system it wouldn't be that way, correct? So it's still an excuse.

Tex said:
July 12, 2008 5:47 PM | #

Jeffrey, Maybe if we did as you suggest, it wouldn't change one single fact. The tool scam would remain the tool scam, regardless of doing what you suggest. Plus, how would we know folks were being honest?

TWS said:
July 14, 2008 3:06 PM | #

Jeffrey,

I appreciate your attempt for transparency, but I don't think all the details you suggest are necessary. Blogs don't require you to have any credibilty to post your thoughts and comments. Which can be a good thing, but it can also be frustrating at times, especially when someone looking from the outside in, is posting their opinions as facts.

But for the sake of playing along... I have 15+ personally sponsored IBOs, 100+ in group and have been a Q12 Platinum for 6 years with a good, profitable balance of retail. Looking forward to Octobers $20,000 bonus :-)

TWS said:
July 14, 2008 3:31 PM | #

Tex,

I was genuinely looking forward to some of your feedback on my July 1 comments. I believe there are some very substantial differences with various groups and the two factors I mentioned could be the start of some interesting dialogue. Or not.

Tex said:
July 15, 2008 3:33 PM | #

TWS,

I responded, it hasn't been posted. If you are really interested, and want to have a more real time discussion, ask me on my blog at http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/

graniteman said:
July 16, 2008 11:10 PM | #

Amway Business Owners must never charge you for books, tapes, CDs, website access or other types of published materials or services, and they are only permitted to promote Amway’s authorised materials.  You can obtain a list of available materials – and their cost – from Amway.

For all you tool scammers! The above comes from the "support and training" portion of the Amway UK Web site. Your days of tool and so called support ripoffs in the US are numbered...applause please!

Amway, when forced, has huge resources to support all IBO's and soon, more correctly, ABO's. 7.2 billion/year is a lot of BLING! They have already made system support  in other countries look like a dog and pony show! And best of all, Amway support is legal, inexpensive and geared to actually create a balanced profitable business. All we need to add is the work ethic!

Tex said:
July 17, 2008 6:55 PM | #

graniteman,

Let's hope that number is small.

I will applaud AFTER the changes are made in the U.S.

I would have preferred Amway taking action prior to being forced, but that's life on planet Earth. At least we can be sure Amway DOESN'T have our backside covered.

TWS said:
July 18, 2008 7:02 PM | #

Tex,

I am inerested in your thoughts on my July 1 comments, but I'm not iterested in participating on your blog at this time. If you want to respond via your blog than I can read it there, but I'll refrain from making any comments. Thanks.

graniteman,

Why do you say more correctly, ABO. I'm not a QBO, I'm an IBO. Maybe everyone will become IBOs once the Amway Global transformation is complete. Or maybe AGBOs. :-)

Tex said:
July 21, 2008 2:42 PM | #

TWS,

I'm not going to post something on my site if you're not going to commit to a conversation. That's the whole point of blogging, to have a back and forth discussion to clarify, explain, etc.

The reason graniteman used ABO is because his point applies ONLY to ABO's, not IBO's.  

Bridgett said:
July 23, 2008 10:35 AM | #

Tex,

Your blog is negative and nasty. As well as your newfound friend's. You both resort to name-calling with those who do not share your point of view 100% completely and wholeheartedly.

You like to personally attack and bash people.

The spirit with which you choose to "communicate" is not one of construction, but of destruction.

So while yes commenting on a blog can be about clarifying and explaining and such, it is also true that the environment in which one does it is not the same from one blog to the next.

You invite people to your BBQ (blog), luring them, to then beat them up and hurt them.

And, if they choose not to "commit to a conversation" you copy-and-paste bits and pieces of what they say from other blogs (out of context) and reply.

LOL.

To twist your friend's version of his twist on a song:

"Go ahead and hate your neighbor....Do it in the name of ending-the-tool-scam, you can justify in the end."

Tex said:
July 25, 2008 12:14 PM | #

"Bridgett",

My blog is accurate and honest. As well as my  newfound friend's. We both resort to accurate labels with those who scam others 100% completely and wholeheartedly.

I like to point out behaviors of tool scammers.

The spirit with which I choose to "communicate" is not one of construction, but of destruction. Specifically, destruction of the tool scam. What would be more approprite to do to a scam?

So while yes commenting on a blog can be about clarifying and explaining and such, it is also true that the environment in which one does it is not the same from one blog to the next.

I invite people to my steakhouse (http://texsquixtarblog.blogspot.com/2008/03/9-steps-of-truth.html) blog, luring them, to then educating them. If they get "beat up and hurt", it's their fault, not mine.

And, if they choose not to "commit to a conversation" I copy-and-paste bits and pieces of what they say from other blogs (in context) and reply.

LOL.

To twist my friend's version of his twist on a song:

"Go ahead and love your neighbor (even if it has to be "tough love")....Do it in the name of ending-the-tool-scam, you can justify in the end."

By the way, did you get my "you're forgiven" comment on your blog? I noticed it didn't get posted....yet.

. 

EDITOR'S NOTE:  This will be the end of this particular conversation at this blog. I didn't publish this comment over the weekend as I wanted to look at it again fresh when I came back into office. My hope is that you recognize the value of making your points in a way that people will want to have conversations with you, Tex. -- RL

tex said:
July 29, 2008 6:45 PM | #

RL,

All I did was invite TWS to my blog, so we wouldn't have to wait several days for the posts to show up.

Bridgett is the one who attacked me, I merely responded, and in a much "friendlier" tone than her post, you should note.

You need to get the sequencing of the posts and the tone of the posts straight, RL.

You also need to recognize there are precious few of us who know the tool scam is the biggest problem this business has, and are willing to speak up for the typical IBO. Also, A/Q has flat refused to engage me on this subject. As I said in Prague, your loss.  

I'm not inclined to talk about tool scammers in a "winsome" tone. Sorry. But not really.

.

EDITOR'S NOTE:  You misunderstood, Tex, it wasn't just your comment that was the last one I was going to post on this particular string.  If Bridgett had come back with a retort I would have left it in the moderator's bucket as well.  Also, please note that we have discussed tools with you in here (a long time ago, maybe) and aren't going to do so on a daily basis. Our daily efforts, instead, are devoted to working with IBOs on the business support materials themselves. I know that you don't believe we're moving fast enough, but I do know the many people involved in improving the experience for all IBOs on this front are working very hard and making good progress. Nobody wants you to be winsome, Tex, but to earn respect for your viewpoints you have to demonstrate respect that others may have different views.  Thanks!  -- RL

tex said:
July 30, 2008 4:40 PM | #

Glad to hear progress is being made.

When I see that the results provide tool profit transparency, I'll be quite satisfied with this issue.

I believe in running THROUGH the finish line, not letting up before getting there.

I know people have different views, but I refuse to respect someone who is ripping off other IBO's and distorting the business model such that it has little resemblance to the marketing plan.

My views are merely based on the facts. If someone doesn't want to respect the facts, that's their decision.

There's a huge gap between a simple disagreement and someone who is "gaming" the business.

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