Staking Claims
Thursday, March 27, 2008  by Gary VanderVen
Category: , ,

What we say about a product - any claim we make about features, benefits, or performance - is more than just marketing.   It's a matter of the reputation of our products, business, and IBOs.  Because of this, we take claims very seriously.
 
Before a product is launched, there are dozens of people at Quixtar and Alticor who work on determining what can be said about a product that's accurate, factual, and representative of most people's experience with that product.  Claims substantiation typically involves marketing, research and development, quality assurance, and legal, among other departments.

Rules gets involved when someone is making claims about a product which fall outside of what we've published or provided for use. 

As many of you may know, Quixtar is planning to launch Perfect Empowered Drinking WaterTM, which is being sourced from an outside vendor.   Because this product is manufactured by another company, we rely on the vendor for claims information and substantiation.  But our commitment to ensuring only approved and appropriate claims are used to promote our products remains the same, regardless of the manufacturer. 

Quixtar recently communicated to its IBOs about the need to make only approved and published claims about this product, and outlined that any IBO making exaggerated claims about the product's effectiveness or implying that it can be used for medicinal purposes would be in violation of Quixtar's Rules of Conduct.

IBOs must only use claims and demonstrations which have been approved by Quixtar to promote this product.  This list of approved claims is available at www.drinkperfectwater.com or in the "What's New" section at www.quixtar.com.   We currently are working with the manufacturer on demonstrations and claims and will update the list of claims as we are able to substantiate them. 

As our rules state, if an IBO is found to be making claims that aren't supported in authorized product literature, Quixtar requires the IBO to correct the misinformation and may apply sanctions up to an immediate six month suspension. We also have a Zero Tolerance Policy against unauthorized websites or advertising.

If you would like to promote Perfect Water, but aren't sure if you are doing so correctly, please contact Rules Administration at qbcr.department@quixtar.com or 616-787-6712.  Or, if you become aware of anyone making unauthorized claims about this or any other product offered by Quixtar, please contact Rules at the above e-mail address or phone number.


Comments

Curious said:
March 27, 2008 5:19 PM | #

Just Curious, does this mean you should now be held liable for the dozons of vidoes posted by the current IBOAI president and others currently on youtube? I mean a company like this should have a standard right? If you as a company diagree, does that mean you will be withdrawing your lawsuit against Monavie for  the relatively few "claims" you found on them?

Diamond Bound said:
March 27, 2008 5:45 PM | #

I just got in this business and am excited Perfect Water as well as the other products I have been exposed to.

I've seen the video stuff on the web about Perfect Water and read the www.drinkperfectwater.com website.  It's amazing to me that many of the critics, obviously haven't seen the product and yet are self- appointed experts.  I was told the only product in the market place was what the Diamonds brought home from Diamond Club in Hawaii.  How did these people who haven't even seen it get so smart?

Also, if anyone makes a claim that this product will cure medical ills, that is a horrible thing to do.  

Everything I've seen so far seems to be done with the utmost integrity and I am going to judge everything I experience on it's merits.  

I am not hung up on what someone who has quit this business, been involved in lawsuits or smear campaigns says on the obviously slanted blogs I have read out there.

Go ahead Quixtar/Amway Global, keep bringing more exciting products like Perfect Water!  I can't wait until the product is actually shipping.  I plan on drinking and selling tons of it!

ibofightback said:
March 27, 2008 6:39 PM | #

Gary, the following statement worries me enormously -

Because this product is manufactured by another company, we rely on the vendor for claims information and substantiation.

You are relying on the company who is trying to sell you something to be responsible for associated claims?

That is absurd! This particular product continues to have some quite scientifically absurd claims about it, but for the last several weeks IBOs have been making fools of themselves with even more ridiculous ones - that were all provided for them on "approved website"

People should be able to trust the corp. to check out products *before* they are brought to the table. They shouldn't have to check a website regularly to see which "claim" is OK today which wasn't yesterday or vice versa.

Anyone with even a modicum of scientific training could see the initial claims being made *on the official vendor website* were absurd, and that some that remain still are. Given the enormous invesment in giving scientific backing to the Artistry and Nutrilite brands, how can this happen?

I'd be hopeful a lesson has been learned, but given you appear to be fine with IBOs promoting "microstructured" water - a bunk concept - and "molecularly bound oxygen" (gee try H2O - it's got oxygen bound to hydrogen!) - well, given you're still happy to have folk promoting that, it appears the lesson hasn't been learned at all.

This business did not grow in the past, and will not grow in future, based on introducing some "fad" product with BS marketing every year or two. I seriously hope that's not the plan for the future.

rocket said:
March 28, 2008 12:01 PM | #

Uh, there is no magic elixir out there that will instantaneously give you better balance.

It's quite obvious this was a (poorly done) slight of hand promotional idea gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Diamond Bound, whether you like it or not, it made Amway ABO's look really really bad.  

Unfortunately in this case, one does not have to have drank the magic water to know that it can't do what the "leaders" were purporting it to do.  It's biologically impossible.

No need to get hung up on the quitters, but you may want to hear what they have to say.  Most of them were at the point where you are now, and felt the exact same way as you do now.

The corporation was right to try and stop it.  I think if someone does get caught putting on this little carnival again that they should be immediately suspended, and every ABO should know it happened.

Bob H said:
March 28, 2008 8:41 PM | #

It is just a little hypocritical to make allegations against MonaVie while at the very same time Quixtar IBOs are engaging in one of the most hucksterish displays ever witnessed in modern times.  Huckster pointing wands must me going on sale right next to the easel, board and markers.  

As for the legal action against MonaVie, the Quixtar Pot is calling the MonaVie kettle black.  Obviously Ada-tudes is going to shift the blame on supposedly errant IBOs to protect the corporate rear side.  (...)

Editor's note:
This post has been edited to remove a portion that violated our comments policy against personal attack. -- Kate Pearsall, editor

Ben said:
March 28, 2008 11:38 PM | #

Uh, it's quite obvious as Diamond Bound already stated that some people have never tried the product yet are self appointed "experts". It is not a sleight of hand promotion. If you try the demo with another brand of oxygenated water that retails for $2.39/bottle, their product doesn't give you the same results.

Diamond Bound, as Zig Ziglar says, just don't be "snioped". Susceptible to the negative influence of other people.

The Big Apple said:
March 30, 2008 12:29 AM | #

Very interesting.  Here’s a great example of where the Company (Quixtar/Amway) is being very strict about the Perfect Water claims, while the IBO leadership comes up with these “biologically impossible” demonstrations, then posts them on YouTube.  (Good description, “Rocket.”)

For the IBO leadership, a new product like this is still about using it to generate excitement in order to get people to meetings, rather than selling the product to a customer in order to make profit for the IBO.  The leadership still promotes PV as the reason to buy the product instead of valid features and benefits.

When IBOs buy products for PV, they don’t continue buying them after leaving the business.  After all, do you need PV if you aren’t in the business?

It’s not against the rules, but it shows we have a long way to go.

rocket said:
March 30, 2008 3:47 PM | #

Good on Big Apple for identifying this as a leadership issue.

Nobody is saying that they are water experts, but anybody with half a clue about human anatomy would be disgusted with the claims being made.

It's not a lack of belief, nor innuendo that the water is not the best.

It just can't do what the "leaders" purported it to do.

It's a shame that the criticism by the corp. is not being taken seriously by some ABO's, and I am assuming Ben is an ABO.

This is a prime example of why I think the adage praise in public, criticize in private should be ignored.

Until an example is made out of hucksters like those leaders, it will simply continue.

As Big Apple said, there is still a long way to go.

Sometimes, public discipline is the answer.

ibofightback said:
March 31, 2008 3:10 PM | #

Big Apple, these demonstrations did not come from IBO leadership. They came from the www.drinkperfectwater.com website. They were removed a few days ago.

It's a little disappointing that the corp. appears to be spinning this as the IBOs fault. As outlined above, www.drinkperfectwater.com is the officially approved site, and that's where the demos came from.

ibofightback said:
March 31, 2008 3:40 PM | #

Ben,

I tried the demonstrations on multiple people with water straight out I've my eSpring. I got the exact same results as claimed for the perfect water. One person on my website says he got the same results using a "magic" ham sandwich.

From my understanding of what's going on (I have multiple health science degrees), it wouldn't matter *what* you used. Give 'em a Mars bar and tell 'em it's magic and you'll get the same results.

Chuck Lia said:
March 31, 2008 3:58 PM | #

Very well said "Big Apple."  The PV excitement is sadly often directed toward the wrong goals and founded in faulty principles.

TWS said:
March 31, 2008 7:52 PM | #

I can understand peoples skepticism. I was there myself, not too mention thinking these tests were a little on the dorky/corny side. But until you've had an opportunity to try the water and demos personally, you're just spouting negative opinion (the reality of blogs)

I have personally performed 20+ demos with the 2 bottles of water I recieved from my upline diamond. Although everybody will not respond the same, I have found 98% of the time the demos have had very positive (unbelievable) results. If you NEED the science to back it up, its my understanding a third party company is in the process of researching it to provide further documentation and proof.

This post is not referring to the demos that the "IBO Leadership" came up with. Perfect Water MAY enhance strength, flexibilty and balance as stated on their website. The claims in question were more medical exaggerations that can't be tolerated.

Of course this product will generate excitiement and sponsoring potential, but I also think this will be a product that non-IBOs will want which will  enhance the ability for all IBOs to be profitable with a balance business.

General_W said:
March 31, 2008 9:07 PM | #

Hey Rocket and Big Apple – have you actually had a chance to have a tip or flexibility test preformed on you? I'm guessing not! Like you I was really skeptical till I actually experienced it and saw it work on (most) everyone around me. In my case, the Perfect Water and been poured into a different generic bottle, and they attempted the tip test with normal water first, then the perfect water without telling me which was which – or even what was supposed to happen. I don't see how it could have been "slight of hand" or "all in my head" since I didn't know what was going on and nothing happened with regular water.  

Still – some of the "got out of my wheel chair and walked" stuff is clearly ridiculous, and it's nice to see Quixtar/Amway getting out in-front of that and forbid it. We all benefit when there's a clear condemnation of nonsense.

However, to me, those claims are clearly in a separate category from the tip/flexibility tests…  and I sincerely hope this simply but powerful demonstration will still be allowed.

I posted this also on the IBOAI blog, for an example: I know that Gatorade was in wide use before anything even approaching rigorous scientific testing was applied to its benefits. The teams that drank the stuff simply out-preformed the teams that didn't drink it. This kind of "non-scientific" anecdotal experience propelled Gatorade to fame. I did some reading up on it on Wikipedia and was amazed to see that Hank Stram, head coach of the Kansas City Chiefs attributed his Super Bowl win in '69 to Gatorade! (Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatoraide#History) I wonder where Gatorade would be today if the company had told the Coach to keep his mouth shut because the effects of Gatorade hadn't been properly studied?

Anyway – bottom line for me: Hooray for stomping on nonsense claims – but I hope we're not going so far the other way that we disallow the obvious effects of personal experience.

JaHn3tiC said:
March 31, 2008 9:28 PM | #

rocket: I’m going to have to call you out on this one. Have you done the tip test? No? Then why should I trust what you have to say? And what are you’re credentials to determine what is and isn’t biological possible?

I have personally done the tip test many times and it works extremely well for me. And no, it’s not psychological; it’s physiological, big difference. And please don’t insult my intelligence by claiming that I’m just “brainwashed” or “hypnotized” or seized by “group think.” I’m as big a skeptic as any but I know there is no doubt that the “tip test” works because I’ve personally experienced it numerous times. Therefore, I am disappointed that you jump to conclusions without researching the facts. I’d love to do the “tip test” on you and then you’d realize for yourself the truth.

Now, that being said, the real question in my mind is what is the real value of the “tip test” and how well does the increase in strength/balance relate to more real world situations. I mean, it’s great to drink this water and become very strong so someone can’t push you over, but what performance does the water provide when say, bench pressing 200 pounds or running the 100 meter?

Anyway, rocket & The Big Apple, as one thinking and rational human being to another, I’d ask you both to please not claim to be experts on “biological impossibility” when you actually have no first-hand experience. That is all.

IBO_TO_GO said:
April 1, 2008 12:59 PM | #

According to the Perfect Water website Their water has the "Fluoride filtered out." Fluoride is added to TAP WATER! Huh?

Filtered tap water: $2 a bottle.

Fraud: Priceless.

JaHn3tiC said:
April 1, 2008 5:41 PM | #

IBO_TO_GO: I’m not entirely sure what you’re point is. Fluoride is added to certain water supplies around the country, but even with it there is great debate as to its long-term safety. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation#Controversy. Perfect Water has a 15 step filtration process so naturally it filters out foreign substances like Fluoride. Whether you personally choose to add Fluoride back in is your choice, but if you are insinuating that tap water is better than Perfect Water due to Fluoride content, you are gravely mistaken.

More importantly, you’re allegation of fraud is unfortunate. The internet allows you to make such bold claims but in a legal setting you could get into serious trouble for alleging fraud without any proof. What exactly is fraudulent here? The “tip test” works, period. Whether this “tip test” helps your health is unknown at this time. But it is not fraud. I find it unfortunate that you make such serious allegations without any apparent facts. If you’d like to provide facts in a rational and respectful manner I’d gladly listen to you. Thank you.

rocket said:
April 1, 2008 6:01 PM | #

JaHn3tiC, with respect,

I am a trained paramedic.  Granted, I have moved on to another career.

Unless human the anatomy and physiology of digestion and diffusion has changed dramatically in the past few years, I'm quite certain I know what I'm talking about.

I don't think I ever said you were brainwashed or hypnotized.  If I did, please accept my abject apologies.

I have never claimed to be an expert, I have just stated that I feel it's biologically impossible.  If you have proof of otherwise, touche.  

Any medical journal explaining the exchange of Carbon Dioxide and Oxygen in the lungs, as well as the digestion process will support the point I'm trying to make.

I have no first hand experience with a lot of things, but a lot of my experiences have taught me what is and what is not possible.

Just do as you're told by Amway, and stop making these claims.  There's a reason they are telling you to stop.

I doubt it's because the claims being made are true.

JaHn3tiC said:
April 1, 2008 6:04 PM | #

ibofightback: That’s weird that you say your eSpring water works, because I’ve tried it with eSpring water several times and the “tip test” has never worked. So I’m going to have to question the accuracy of your statement. You’re saying that I could, for example, go fill my Styrofoam cup with eSpring water and after drinking it I couldn’t be tipper over with the tip test? That’s never worked for me…

As for Ham sandwiches, I’m not sure I can trust “one person on your website.” I think that person was speaking what I like to call “lies.” Now, Turkey sandwiches on the other hand…

Bridgett said:
April 1, 2008 7:13 PM | #

Wow, all this hubub over a product that hasn't been released yet...

Maybe it has nothing to do with the product, and everything to do with everyone's personal agenda to express what they feel are the faults "the biz" (critics, ex-IBOs, and current IBOs).

Just a thought.

Bridgett said:
April 1, 2008 7:30 PM | #

IBOFB said, "From my understanding of what's going on (I have multiple health science degrees), it wouldn't matter *what* you used."

Science degrees mean nothing to me. "Scientists" are supressing truth AND discrediting other scientists who are trying to communicate and further investigate those truths.

I'm excited about Ben Stein's new movie.... http://www.expelledthemovie.com/playground.php

which investigates this supression of the truth.

Ben said:
April 1, 2008 9:23 PM | #

IBO Fightback, interesting post.

As TWS, General W, and JaHn3tiC has said the demos work.

I also saw (the same as General_W) the test work in a blind testing. The subjects actually thought they were getting the Perfect Water but subsequently, didn't have any differences in flexibility or balance. Only when they got the PW did they show any positive results.

IBO_TO_GO

If you have no sensible comments, please don't leave any.

JaHn3tiC said:
April 2, 2008 3:20 PM | #

rocket: Thank you for your respectful comment. I do appreciate your opinion and I’m definitely not here to dismiss your background and scientific education. And you did not say I was brainwashed, so I meant no offense to you. My comments were more geared toward many people who have said the “tip test” is sleight of hand or a similar deception.

The real truth is I just find the “tip test” very fascinating. I fully admit I can’t explain why the “tip test” works, but I’m faced with the strange truth that after drinking this water I become much more able to resist someone pushing me over. I wish I could experiment with you because I can tell you are a very smart person, and I think we’d both find it intellectually fascinating.

Anyway, if Amway says to stop the “tip test” I think that’s too bad because it is a very powerful demonstration that *something* does happen when you drink this water, something that doesn’t happen with other water products.

In conclusion, I do believe there are many things we don’t understand about how the body works, so I would be careful to say so definitively that the “tip test” can’t work in spite of verifiable and repeatable proof to the contrary. Anyway, soon enough once you can get the water you can try the test for yourself if you haven’t already, and you can decide for yourself. Talk to you later.

rdknyvr said:
April 3, 2008 9:14 AM | #

By the way, IBO-TO-GO's comment is worth reflecting on...

If the fluoride is being filtered out, he/she is correct... the source of this product is tap water. Doesn't mean it isn't good water, but it's still sourced from a municipal supply.

Jeffrey said:
April 3, 2008 2:40 PM | #

Does the company really think that customers are going to pay $50 for water?

JaHn3tiC said:
April 3, 2008 2:52 PM | #

rdknyvr: Actually, fluoride is often naturally occurring in the environment and in water supplies. Wikipedia says, “Fluoride is found naturally in low concentration in drinking water and foods.” Therefore, it is not true that Perfect Water *must* come from tap water.

That being said, the Perfect Water FAQ is a bit cagey about the water source. This is unfortunate. My belief is that the water very well may come from a common water source, such as tap water. But we shouldn’t be afraid of this at all. Once the water goes through the 15 step filtration process (including reverse osmosis and others), the water is quite pure.

The point is even “spring” or “glacial” water can be contaminated with numerous “natural occurring” elements that are in fact harmful. But I personally know that after the 15 step filtration process, Perfect Water is very pure.

So truth is rdknyvr is right, Perfect Water I think comes from a very common water source but is transformed into an awesomely pure and superior water product. It’s like a rags to riches story; it’s the Cinderella of water products. ;)

rocket said:
April 3, 2008 7:47 PM | #

JaHn3tiC

Thanks for your apology, I truly do appreciate it.

I'm glad that after you drink the water you become much more able to resist someone pushing you over.

Drink Lots!  The good Lord hates a pushover:0)

Ben said:
April 3, 2008 9:14 PM | #

rdknyvr,

I don't believe that the source of the water is very important, as long as its not from a nuclear plant :)

For example, if I filter water from Los Angeles or Honolulu with my Espring filter, isn't the result the same?

Also, isn't Seattle going to be recycling their sewer water into drinking water? I guess that proves it REALLY doesn't matter where you get your water from. LOL

rdknyvr said:
April 4, 2008 9:59 AM | #

JaHn3tiC, Ben (JaHn3tiC, your handle is even harder to pronounce than mine!!! I'm actually "RDK in Vancouver", for what it's worth.)

You're both right as to the validity of the source, as long as it's gone through the process. I agree that some natural sources of spring water may have naturally occurring fluoride, and that LA or Seattle or Vancouver water is just as good coming out of an eSpring filter. I was born in Seattle, but I'm glad I'm not living there, at least not where metro Seattle water is distributed!!!

See my other post above, just put up, as to motivation for blogging about this water.

With appreciation to you both,

JoeS said:
April 5, 2008 3:41 AM | #

I find it interesting that Corp. will not make a statement about the "Tip test" and the claims of improved balance, strength, and flexibility.  I mean on one hand they have told IBOs to remove the videos, but on the other hand have not said if the information is false or not.   As long as the Corp continues to not publicly denounce the "tip test" and these claims then the IBO rumor mill will continue to promote them.   I find it interesting that in all the years the Nutrilite products have been marketed that they never had such outlandish claims made about the products.   Here we have only water, and it can make you stronger, more flexible and give you improved balance.   Here you have some sort of increased dissolved oxygen, which people assume your stomach can process much faster than your lungs, which are infinitely more suited for oxygen exchange than your stomach.  One extra breath of air contains more oxygen then you will ever absorb from the water.

Bridgett said:
April 5, 2008 5:06 PM | #

Jeffrey,

The right customers will. The bottled water industry in the U.S. is a $16 Billion industry.

And bottled water is the #1 SKU at Whole Foods Market--the largest natural foods grocery store in the country (maybe the world, don't know).

You may not pay 2 bucks for a bottle of water, but the Penta, Smart Water, Fuji, Evian, and on and on and on CURRENT customers will.

I'm learning to not project my consuming habits on the rest of the population.

Bridgett said:
April 5, 2008 5:08 PM | #

rdknyvr et al,

I agree that I need science if I'm going to be making medical claims about the water. But if I'm going to sell this water, as water, just like all the other bottled water companies, and all their pretty pictures, cute tag lines, and marketing attention-getters then I do not need any science.

I think that's where the difference lies.

We have plenty of products that have zero science behind it, because we aren't making any medical claims about them.

Do we have any double-blind placebo tests on the Trim protein bars? Or the SA8 laundry soap? How about the Dish Drops?

Yes this water can be "controversial", but I'm glad that Quixtar/Amway is willing to look at what the market is asking for, without "selling out", which is what it feels like some IBOs are acting like they are doing—selling out.

Crikey! When XS Energy Drink came out, everyone went on this insane tirade about Ace-K and sucralose and the "evil" taurine.

And we have sucralose in our Twist Tubes. Holy Organic Muffins, Batman!! How could the Corp. put the pristine Nutrilite name on something "artificial"?

What is the world coming to? Is there nothing sacred anymore! :-)

Just to reel myself back in, I DO very much agree that medical claims are not just WRONG to make, but also bad for business. It really won’t help with profits in the long run if the product is taken away because we IBOs acted like complete morons. Yes?

The Big Apple said:
April 7, 2008 12:15 AM | #

IBOFB, I didn't know the demos came from the vendor's website. Quixtar wasn't on top of this one.  But still, the leadership is smart enough to know what is hucksterism  and what isn't.  A little common sense would have been in order.

As for the water itself, I drank it last summer at Quixtar HQ, and was unimpressed.  Of course, I wasn't given any preconceptions as to what it might do for my lateral muscle control!  To tell truth, I switched back to the bottled eSpring water they had.  I liked the taste better.

The power of suggestion is very powerful, which I believe speaks to IBOFB's "Give 'em a Mars bar" example.

And Bridgett, you crack me up!  "Holy Organic Muffins, Batman" indeed!  

I do think we may be on the wrong side of the environmental issue regarding plastic bottles.

JaHn3tiC said:
April 7, 2008 2:32 PM | #

rdknyvr: it’s great to finally know what your name means; before it was gibberish to me. But the “y” in your name still confuses me. Anyway! My name is perhaps hard, but it’s pronounced just like “genetic” but with more of a “jah” in the front. :)

Anyway your point about reputation is a good one. That is why I maintain IBOs should do the demos of the water without making any claims except the obvious balance/flexibility benefit.

Let the demo speak for itself and be honest and tell prospects that so far there is no hard science to explain the effects of the water. And if the water makes them feel better or work out harder, great. But if it has no perceivable effects on them, that’s ok too because they need to drink pure water anyway.

Bridgett said:
April 7, 2008 5:31 PM | #

The Big Apple,

Here's an article about the water industry. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/117/features-message-in-a-bottle.html

The moral issue of bottle water is definitely discussed throughout the article.

Mackey, the CEO of earthy, granola, wind credits, no plastic shopping bags, Whole Foods Market, is quoted in this article as well, since bottled water is the #1 selling unit item in their stores.

How one reconciles this moral issue, should it be left up to Amway Global or to each IBO?

Is it 'cause it's water? Is it okay that the protien shakes, which were originally offered in cans, and are now offered in bottles, acceptable?

****************************************

By the way, on a totally unrelated note, hey Corp., is there a reason why these new protein shakes (SKU#s 106531,-32,-33) are the same price even though you reformulated them and cut 10 grams of the protein?

We've gone from 35 grams to 25 grams. The PROTEIN shakes have 28% less PROTEIN and you want me to charge my customers that same price?

This is a mistake, right?

rdknyvr said:
April 7, 2008 9:20 PM | #

JaHn3tiC, the "y" is from YVR, the three letter airport designation for Vancouver.

As for the P-water balance, flexibility, that's been blogged about a lot elsewhere... basically both are hoaxes and have nothing to do with the water. Your flexibility is ALWAYS better on the second "rep" for anything. And the balance is a hoax -- on the first "pull," you'll note that the direction of pull is slightly "out" from the body. The second one, after drinking the water, is "in" and thus does not put the body off balance at all, and further more, the subject now knows what to expect and will subconsciously be prepared.

And then the explanations given at the vendor's site directly contradict what we DO know about the biology of absorbtion in the gut, and O2 absorbtion in the lungs vs. the gut. I won't repeat it all here, but the water on those points is a hoax. It may be very pure water on its merits, but the other so called differentiating factors don't exist and thus, I would suggest, sufficient reason for the premium price.

If I want pure water, I'm very happy with what comes out of my eSpring at about $0.20 per litre... and I can always "dose" it with the Simply Nutrilite Twist Tubes if I want additional antioxidant or balanced electrolyte replentishment.

Thanks for respecting my point of view on this, and understanding that my main concern, along with others, is maintaining the integrity of the Corp's reputation. :)

Canadian IBO 2 said:
April 8, 2008 12:52 PM | #

So does the value of the P-water equal or exceed the $2.00+ that we are going to ask people to spend?

The Big Apple said:
April 8, 2008 8:12 PM | #

Bridgett,

Very interesting article on water.  Thanks.  

I noted how the author kept saying or inferring that bottled and tap water is good, and one can’t tell the difference from another.  But on the last web page, he mentions how “silky” Fiji water tastes, and I agree.  I sure can taste the difference between waters.

And, as usual, good point on the protein shake containers.  I think we drink more bottled beverages because we’re on the go more.  We don’t stay home after 5 p.m. like in “Ozzie & Harriett” and “Leave it to Beaver.”

I also tend to think the Perfect Water may be a good replacement for the many-times excessive consumption of XS Energy drinks by IBOs.  It’s almost cult like when “you’re not one of us” unless you have an XS in your hand.  Too many stimulants are not good for one’s health.  

But the other side of that is how many IBOs will change from re-filling empty bottles of eSpring water to grabbing a bottle of Perfect Water?  It won’t decrease the replacement time for eSpring filter cartridges, but it will add to the number of plastic bottles used, as well as adding PV/BV and cost to everyone, as well as revenue and profit to Amway.  

The fact that there’s PV/BV in it will drive the organizations to push it, and likely cause an increase in the use of plastic bottles.  But, maybe not.  Who knows what the statistics are.

JaHn3tiC said:
April 10, 2008 2:18 PM | #

rdknyvr: Now I finally understand your name. But why does the Vancouver airport have a “Y” in the designation? :)

I know the P-water demos are controversial, and I can see why you might think the demos are hoaxes. However, I must say that the demos are not hoaxes. I like you but I’m going to have to ask you like I asked rocket, have you actually experienced the demos firsthand? Or are you basing your opinion on some video you saw?

I’ve done the demo many times, and I tell people exactly what I’m going to do so no one can say they were tricked. I don’t want to deceive anyone and I respect my audience enough to be completely honest with them. And as for your explanation about pulling “out” vs “in” I have to say that is just false, sorry. I push down on the person’s arm the EXACT same way both times, and once again, I tell them exactly what I’m going to do.

The simple truth is that the P-water does “something” to people that makes them be very resistant to being pushed over. It’s not a placebo, it’s not psychological, it’s not subconscious. I know what I’m saying might blow your mind, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the proof of the tip test is in the obvious results. Like I told rocket, I’d love to do the tip test on you because then you’d convert and become a true believer. :)

Bridgett said:
April 11, 2008 1:17 AM | #

Big Apple,

LOL! Yes, I think the XS Can has replaced the blue suits-white shirt-red tie "uniform" which identifies a "fired up" IBO. :)

************************

I cannot see Perfect Water replacing eSpring users.

I think they are two different markets.

If I like the Perfect Water, I'll drink it, but probaby not four bottles a day! So, that means that I've got to have some other water consumption. That's where eSpring will come in for me.

I have no problem filling up a water bottle (or two) from my eSpring (actually from my eSpring pitcher in the fridge so it's nice and cold) and being on my merry way for the rest of the day.

*************************************

As far as the protein shakes go...I have to try them. They better taste pretty dang good for me to pay $3 for only 25 grams of protein.

I can get 22 grams in the "old" protein bars for $2.39.

AND, I can carry a bar around with me in my bag all day. I do that will a shake and, trust me, warm shakes are yimey.

Or, I can be a "fired up" IBO with my XS Cooler and store my shake and samples in there! :)

But, I know that some people prefer to drink than chew, so good for the Corp for offering choices.

*************************************

Speaking of chewing, has everyone tried the new (and less expensive than the previous versions of the energy bars I might add) bars.

WOW! The Vanilla Pretzel and the Peanut Butter Pretzel Nutrilite Energy Bars are soooo good.

They're like Snickers bars with the caramel and nouget (sp.?) topped with two mini pretzels and then coated with vanilla (like a yogurt-covered pretzel coating) or peanut butter.

Sweet, salty, chewy, crunchy all in one bar. Yum!

Oh, and you can wash it down with the Perfect Water, the topic of this post.

:)

Utah said:
April 11, 2008 1:33 PM | #

Instead of Perfect water, what about the sports drinks?  I was wondering why there is Sucralose is so many of the corporation's products, including ones that have sucrose/sugar. Many people have problems or fears with "fake" sugar. I can understand why for sugar free products, but every time my wife picks up a product with Sucralose, or any of the other fake sugars, it gets put back down. You would think you could buy something from Q/A that was real. If you look at the sports drinks, some are sugar free, but the rest still have sucralose. If the were get rid of that, then why get perfect water anyway?

ibofightback said:
April 13, 2008 11:10 AM | #

JaHn3tiC, I believe the "tip test" works because of a phenomenon known as the "ideomotor effect". Essentially the folk doing the pushing are changing what they're doing. The only way to test that one properly is what's called a double-blind study. Even the tester can't know what they're testing.

I'd note that the drinkperfectwater.com website has now removed the claims about it helping strength, flexibility, and balance. It appears perhaps the "third party" testing the water has come up with the exact same results I did.

Oh, and Bridget, April 1 post, just for you - http://www.expelledexposed.com

ajgannon said:
April 14, 2008 12:36 AM | #

Hi Utah,

You're pretty concerned about artificial sweeteners.  I've seen you're post on multiple OZ blogs.  I've come across about 3 people out of a hundred who don't like the taste of sucralose or ace-K, or are simply opposed to anything artificial.  Personally I think these sweeteners mimic real sugar a whole lot better than saccharin or Nutra-sweet.  I've never liked diet drinks, but I love the XS drinks and the Nutrilite Sports drinks.

The sad fact is that real, natural sugar is killing people in America.  Diabetes and obesity are at epidemic levels.  Adult-onset diabetes is on the rise amonst children.  People love the sweet taste.  Isn't it better to fool the brain into thinking it enjoyed a sweet treat by substituting a safe, artificial sweetener that isn't ultilized by the body?  

Utah said:
April 14, 2008 12:07 PM | #

ajgannon,

Why, put sucralose in something that already has natural sugar?

Yes, I know several people that can not have Nutra-sweet. Some work fine with sucralose, others do not. The point is if the corporation is going to have Perfect Water, and a Sports Drink, that the sports drink should have the choice - between no sugar and no sucralose or Ace-K, etc.

JaHn3tiC said:
April 16, 2008 1:55 PM | #

ibofightback: I read about the ideomotor effect. It’s an interesting concept but not a correct diagnosis in this case. A key way the ideomotor effect works is because people know what to expect and want “it” to work and then that expectation somehow physiologically affects them.

I’ve tested several people who did not want it to work and thought it was 100% nonsense. However, they had to admit it worked after the obvious results.

The larger truth we can take away here is people will always find a way to believe what they want to believe, despite the evidence or lack thereof.

But anyway, Amway has needed a great demo product for years since the original LOC. Demo products sell. And the Perfect Water demos do the selling for you.

Bridgett said:
April 17, 2008 6:37 PM | #

JaHn3tiC,

I don't believe the "demos" are "allowed" to shown right now.

They've been taken off the PW website for a reason....

Tex said:
April 26, 2008 4:20 PM | #

I think the best part of the Perfect Water disaster is IBO's used blogs to identify unsupportable claims and caused these claims to be withdrawn, even though one of the ridiculous videos came from the IBOAI Board Chairman himself.

Now THAT'S the power of the blogs, and a clear message to the IBOAI Board the IBO's are taking back our businesses from those interested in maximizing their tool profits, not helping their IBO's make a net profit.

Nothing short of a full public apology from the IBOAI is in order for the Perfect Water video demos.

Bridgett said:
April 28, 2008 11:31 AM | #

Tex,

Do you think IBOs came up with those claims and those demos themselves?

Before you go crucifiying people, you may want to ask who AT THE CORP showed IBOs those demos and made those claims FIRST.

And then decide who owes who an apology.

Bridgett said:
April 28, 2008 12:47 PM | #

For clarity,

Let me state that my last post was NOT about pointing fingers or assigning blame.

The point that I was trying to make is the arrogance we can have, thinking that we know the full story, that we see the full picture, that we have all the pieces to the puzzle--when in fact, we don't.

And the danger that can occur when we draw conclusions based, not on ALL the facts, but only the facts that we allow to be filtered it through our own PREconceived notions.

To use blogs as one's only source of information, or as one's main source of information (particularly those blogs whose purpose is destroy this business), is misguided at best and foolish at worst.

Tex said:
April 29, 2008 4:48 PM | #

Bridgett,

No, as far as I know, they copied the demos off the Perfect Water site, which have since been taken down. However, this raises other concerns:

1. The intelligence (common sense, actually) of our upline. If such dramatic improvements occurred, don't YOU think someone with deep pockets, like Jerry Jones (Dallas Cowboys football), George Steinbrenner (New York Yankees baseball), or Rich DeVos (Orlando Magic basketball) would have gotten an exclusive on this "magic water" (no pun intended) and won their League championships for the next few decades?

2. The openness of our communications. Many in the downline are doctors, biomedical engineers, etc., and would tell the upline in a heartbeat this is nonsense, IF the communication path was not top down only.  The push back came from IBO's on blogs. You know, the sewage that's the internet, the source of "World Wide Whiners", etc?

I have no proof someone "AT THE CORP" showed them these demos,  but I do know there are many knowledgable scientists, researchers, etc., with Nutrilite who could have given input, and apparently weren't consulted. If Quixtar wants to apologize as well, I'm open to it.

It's Public Relations 101 that it is much better to "fall on your sword" over these matters than remain silent, or simply remove the false claims. Just say you screwed up and move on. Simple stuff.

Until this happens, the "crucifixions" will continue.

JaHn3tiC said:
April 29, 2008 8:34 PM | #

Tex (...). The PF demos were not created by so called tool scammers. The PF demos would help everyone sell the product and seems to me to be an equalizer among IBOs and the exact opposite of some elitist tool scam.

I'd suggest Tex drink some PF to get more balance and perspective, but I guess I can't say that anymore. So...uh, drink PF because...because humans need water. How's that for brilliant marketing?

editor's note
This post has been edited in order to adhere to our civil discourse policy. -Katie Pearsall

Bridgett said:
April 30, 2008 2:02 PM | #

Tex said, "as far as I know...."

Exactly.

Just because we live in a world where we can lay everything out there for millions to see in an instant through the Internet, does not mean that we *should* lay everything out there for millions to see in an instant.

And just because some people choose not to lay everything out there for millions to see in an instant through the Internet, does not mean that they are deceitful nor fearful (lying or cowardly).

Some choose to exercise attributes called discernment and wisdom.

(pause)

Just here to add a little balance to the "sewage" and the "whiners" here on the Internet.

Tex said:
April 30, 2008 7:05 PM | #

JaHn3tiC (...). (whatever that means),

I didn't say the tool scammers created PF demos.  By the way, shouldn't it be PW? Unless you're in the Navy, but even then it would be PFW!

The main problem with the demos is they had no scientific basis, and the same results were achieved using a ham sandwich. Just like the tool scam, which  has no ethical or moral basis.

Anyway, I said above the upline made their own demos similar to the demos that were on the PW site and both have since been taken down.  At least most of them have, there's still a few on youtube (Editor?).

Why should I give up my eSpring "The World's Best Source of Water" (a statement which was reviewed by the Quixtar legal department, by the way) that costs me pennies a gallon, for a relatively small $2 bottle of water? Personally, I think this should be an IQ test, terminate those IBO's who have an eSpring and also buy the "Perfect Water." Or anyone who buys the PW but not the eSpring.

You really need to address my 2 concerns above, and stop kidding yourself. Of course, if the dream is big enough, the facts don't count. Right?

Bridgett said:
May 2, 2008 7:18 PM | #

Tex said, "Personally, I think this should be an IQ test, terminate those IBO's who have an eSpring and also buy the "Perfect Water." Well, good thing Tex has no authority. Otherwise I'd no longer be allowed to be an IBO. Oh, and let’s not forget another category of IBOs, “Or anyone who buys the PW but not the eSpring.” With Tex's business model, I wonder just how many people would pass his morality test (we all know his disdain for System leaders and their supporters) and his IQ test (we now know that anyone who allows their lips to touch PW is an idiot in his mind). (...)

Editor's Note
Edited in order to adhere to our civil discourse policy. - Katie Pearsall

InspireWithGrace said:
May 5, 2008 4:12 AM | #

Tex, I love your comment about the IQ test for those would buy the Perfect Water and not the eSpring! How could someone who is concerned with their intake of water enough to purchase reasonably priced premium water not also want the best in-home filtration system available? Maybe they want to use only Perfect Water for all their water needs? I personally think termination is a bit drastic for those who would choose the more expensive and perhaps lazy route of using the pre-bottled Perfect Water instead of eSpring. But I hear you on the questionable thought processes we can all have at times.

There are thoughts I would have to add to those comments as well. To say those who would own an eSpring such as myself to use for cooking, at home drinking water, coffee, etc. would be foolish to carry with them outside the home bottled water that is not eSpring just doesn't seem to be in line with the thinking that was used in the purchase of the eSpring in the first place. The purchase of the eSpring was to filter as many of the bacteria and microorganisms, etc out of the existing tap water (regardless of source) as can be done with the carbon and UV light filtration processes used by the eSpring, right? So how could one so concerned with using filtered water possibly be against using Perfect Water knowing that it is the most highly filtered water on the market today? (The most filtered other premium water is filtered 13x as opposed to the 15x filtration process of Perfect Water.) We know that there will be some form of liquid purchased for consumption at some point in any consumer's day (or week or month) whether they are carrying eSpring or purchasing it elsewhere. Water is necessary for human survival. For ease of use it only makes sense that Perfect Water be the natural choice of the eSpring user on-the-go.

Of course, I am looking at it from the standpoint of one who will market it to those clients who want the best in home and out. I think the current almost frenzied promotion of the Perfect Water should really lead to dramatic increased sales of the eSpring unit as those interested in the purification process will always love the eSpring system!

Perhaps this merits some quick calculation to see if the savings of using the eSpring in a typical family who purchase bottled water for their home use would also cover the cost of the 2- 4 cases per month of Perfect Water.

I am inspired now....  

JaHn3tiC said:
May 5, 2008 2:15 PM | #

Tex,

Ha, you are right, I meant PW, not PF. 

I still highly doubt this “ham sandwich” actually worked in the tip test, but if so, then perhaps Quixtar should start selling such ham sandwiches methinks.

The problem with comparing eSpring to PW is that they are two different products. eSpring provides very pure water. PW does that too but its main benefit is the molecularly bound oxygen. PW is water enhanced with oxygen rather than merely purified water, as I’m sure you know.

So for instance, when at home, use eSpring for drinking and cooking. However, when you go work out, go for a hike, or are out in another stressful situation, drink PW for its oxygen benefit. So both products have place and a purpose.

Your statements on IQ show how your intolerance and rage has blinded you on these issues. But it’s ok, I still like you…your unique and dedicated and at least that is to be commended.

Bridgett said:
May 6, 2008 1:48 AM | #

JaHn3tiC,

What exactly is Tex, an inactive IBO, "dedicated" to?

"Unique"?

"Commended"?

You've been readin' those PMA books, haven't you? :)

*************************************

Katie P., Don't know what I said that got me "bleeped". I see that others have said what I originally said, so that's good enough for me. As long as someone says it. :)

Tex said:
May 31, 2008 2:58 PM | #

Bridgett said:

April 30, 2008 2:02 PM,

Good job ignoring all of the other points I made.

InspireWithGrace said:

May 5, 2008 4:12 AM,

Thanks for your comments. Obviously, there are advantages in convenience, packaging, etc., that make PW an option. And it is good Quixtar responded to the ridiculous claims being made. After the initial purchase, it costs about 10 cents per gallon for the eSpring, and about $2 for a small bottle of PW. It's not rocket science. I'm doubtful how much better filtering something the 14th and 15th time is, compared to filtering it 13 times, or even 5 times, for that matter. Think of the air pollution you breath in compared to the stuff you filter out of the water, and decide what the benefit may be.

JaHn3tiC said:

May 5, 2008 2:15 PM,

The problem is there is zero scientific evidence that "molecularly bound oxygen" produces ANY benefit. Sounds like pure marketing to me, with nothing to back it up. Haven't you noticed how much the claims have been withdrawn?

Bridgett said:

May 6, 2008 1:48 AM,

How do YOU know how active/inactive I am?  You should read your April 30th post again, and consider how it applies to your comment above.

Ben said:
June 3, 2008 4:52 PM | #

Tex,

The original post to this is all you need. As long as IBO's aren't misrepresenting the product then its fine.

The PW has been selling extremely well even with the backorders and if people are willing to spend the money on it then that's their business.

Penta sells for an even higher per bottle cost and if customers walk into a health food store to buy it that's again, their decision.

If you want to just drink Espring water and never buy PW, then go ahead.

Once again, read the original post.

Tex said:
June 6, 2008 1:00 AM | #

Ben,

What the original post ignores is the fact the PW site had demonstrations on it that were similar to "snake oil", and were repeated by many high level IBO's, even the IBOAI Chairman, on youtube.

The videos mostly been removed, but several are still there.

Other claims were also removed from the PW site.

Quixtar has sued Mona Vie over unsupported claims, and needs to do MUCH more with the PW videos still on youtube to not be guilty of similar issues.

Once again, the original post does NOT tell the whole story.

Ben said:
June 6, 2008 7:56 PM | #

Tex,

The demonstrations were repeated because it was okay to do at the time. Once Q changed their stance on the issue, it was removed. That's when the original post came out, after the demonstrations were taken off.

I agree that Q has to do more to remove the videos but I believe they are working on it.

Also, the demonstrations are not "snake oil" as you put it.

j4.1776 said:
June 8, 2008 1:51 PM | #

when you see a video, send it to your upline platinum to forward the link to thier sales advisor and/or legal department.

there are some vids that will be dificult to take down if they are not IBO's and have actually ripped the vids from the internet before it is too late.

regards to snake-oil.

i keep seeing it refferred to snake-oil on a few blogs.

funny thing is, you need venum to create an anti-toxin to a pesky bite from those particular snakes, so if the success of this "snake-oil" as they put it continues as it has already been doing, then there is a strong possiblity that thier bites will not affect as many people terminally.

;)

ibofightback said:
June 9, 2008 7:08 PM | #

I hate to do a post in support of Tex, but he's right. The demonstrations are snake oil.

I'm already encountering negative reports on the internet from "joe public" about the snake oil demos . Not exactly what you want in a year of transformation and reputation building

Tex said:
June 9, 2008 10:12 PM | #

Ben,

As I told Bridgett,

"No, as far as I know, they copied the demos off the Perfect Water site, which have since been taken down. However, this raises other concerns:

1. The intelligence (common sense, actually) of our upline. If such dramatic improvements occurred, don't YOU think someone with deep pockets, like Jerry Jones (Dallas Cowboys football), George Steinbrenner (New York Yankees baseball), or Rich DeVos (Orlando Magic basketball) would have gotten an exclusive on this "magic water" (no pun intended) and won their League championships for the next few decades?

2. The openness of our communications. Many in the downline are doctors, biomedical engineers, etc., and would tell the upline in a heartbeat this is nonsense, IF the communication path was not top down only.  The push back came from IBO's on blogs. You know, the sewage that's the internet, the source of "World Wide Whiners", etc?

I have no proof someone "AT THE CORP" showed them these demos,  but I do know there are many knowledgable scientists, researchers, etc., with Nutrilite who could have given input, and apparently weren't consulted. If Quixtar wants to apologize as well, I'm open to it.

It's Public Relations 101 that it is much better to "fall on your sword" over these matters than remain silent, or simply remove the false claims. Just say you screwed up and move on. Simple stuff."

Also, many of the remaining videos are easy to find, but have been there for several weeks. The demos are "snake oil" until proven otherwise, which I believe there is very little chance of happening.

Ben said:
June 10, 2008 8:09 PM | #

Tex,

I guess you don't believe Q has deep pockets?

Let's get back to the basics. However you may believe that it was handled badly or not, the result is that the PW is still selling very well.

As long as IBO's are not making any medical claims about the product then we really don't have a problem.

To go on and on about what happened or didn't happen really doesn't help, and the problem seems to be that you don't want to let go of that.

From your posts it seems that your not just against the demonstrations but also the product itself.

Let's just move forward and let people make their own decisions if they want to sell and purchase the product.

Bridgett said:
June 10, 2008 8:56 PM | #

For those who've actually consumed the Perfect Water and think it is snake oil...please raise your hand.

Bueller...Bueller...anyone...Bueller?

Tex said:
June 11, 2008 9:53 AM | #

j4.1776,

It's far too easy for Quixtar to find these videos on youtube, without our help.

ibofb,

You shouldn't "hate to do a post in support of Tex", you should do as I do, view the facts and provide your input.

As I've said several times before, the two of us agree on many things regarding this business, with the tool scam being an exception.

An extremely critical and significant exception.

Tex said:
June 12, 2008 5:06 PM | #

Ben said:

June 10, 2008 8:09 PM | #

Why would you ask whether I believe Q has deep pockets?

The problem is IBO's ARE still making medical claims regarding PW. I saw it at an Open less than a month ago. I still see IBO videos on youtube making medical claims. I'm not talking about JUST the past, but the current scenario as well. Where were the "dozens of people at Quixtar and Alticor" referred to in the original post, when this problem blew up?

I'm okay with the product, just not the snake oil claims that are STILL being made.

Tex said:
June 12, 2008 5:36 PM | #

Bridgett said:

June 10, 2008 8:56 PM

I don't have to consume the water to believe the snake oil claims that were being made are highly unlikely to be true.

Which is precisely why they have been removed from all official sources.

Ben said:
June 13, 2008 5:33 PM | #

Tex,

I guess I just choose to believe that Q is working to correct the situation the best that they can.

They can only control IBO's actions to a certain degree.

Tex said:
June 16, 2008 12:57 PM | #

Ben said:

June 13, 2008 5:33 PM

Are you saying I have more ability to find youtube videos that have been posted for months? It was a simple "Perfect Water" word search. It's NOT rocket science.

Quixtar can, and should, do better than this. After all, they are suing Mona Vie for similar claims with their juice drink.

Ben said:
June 17, 2008 3:11 PM | #

Tex,

You can find the videos, getting IBO's and negative skeptics to comply is totally different. Are you saying Q should sue its own IBO's and all the negative skeptics that are also posting it?

Tex said:
June 18, 2008 8:18 AM | #

Ben said:

June 17, 2008 3:11 PM

No, I'm not saying Q should sue its own IBO's. I'm saying they should be able to get the videos taken down more quickly, and should get the word out MUCH more effectively that such videos are prohibited, along with the potential consequences of posting these types of videos, up to and including termination.

Obviously, they have less control over the "negative skeptics", but a lawsuit or two would probably help in that area as well.

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