Quixtar Ada-tudes: A View from the Top : Brief Responds to Lawsuit

Brief Responds to Lawsuit

Tuesday, September 04, 2007 by Beth Dornan
Category: Announcements, Quixtar Strategy, Transparency

Check out Quixtar's brief filed in California last week in response to a lawsuit filed by several IBO leaders.

brief filed in California last week in response to a lawsuit filed by several IBO leaders.

Comments

jthompson said: September 4, 2007 3:57 PM | #

Read pg 11 of 26 titled "C. The Genesis of This Litigation" and compare it to "Pastor Dickie" letter in freetheibo.com representing Orrins purposes.... they don't match!

Pg 11 is the most simple straight forward truth there is on the entire TEAM vs Quixtar.

Read this please.

In my opinion pg 11 does not describe a person of integrity.

Trevor said: September 4, 2007 4:07 PM | #

I find it humorous that the brief states, "But they never cite the one case that matters..." and then mention the 1979 FTC vs AMWAY case. Perhaps a bit more careful reading of the original lawsuit might help. If you were to read the lawsuit you will see that the 1979 case is mentioned multiple times and in fact the latter half of the document centers on it.

I've attempted to remain as neutral and non-condemning on these blogs as I could, but come on. Now you're straight up lying to people and hoping their ignorance of the facts will protect you? And in a court document no less.

You've put spin after spin on the facts in these blogs, and that's your right. It is your corporate property. The spin has ranged from minor to quite severe, bordering on lying...good to see you've finally taken the plunge and gone head-long into misrepresenting the facts.

It is also very telling when you start defending your legal position on a pending court case in a public forum. Very professional.

Also interesting that in the brief you state that you are being unfairly treated by having the case heard in California instead of Alticor-friendly Michigan, but skip the fact that the reason the California location was used is because that court holds jurisdiction over the 1979 case (which was never mentioned in the lawsuit, wink, wink) and this lawsuit ties directly into that.

So please, multi-billion dollar company of integrity defend yourself from a position of truth and honor rather than spin, factual misdirection, and now untruths. Show some class to the thousands of IBOs that will stay with your company regardless of the outcome.

jthompson said: September 4, 2007 4:14 PM | #

Read for yourself pg 11of26 that talks about (paraphrase) "you can't prepare 47 page lawsuit in 5min that has confidential iboai documents. The Aug9 meeting was an ambush with Orrins lawyer waiting outside with a lawsuit."

_______

"Pastor" Dickie's Letter -

"Orrin decided to make a godly appeal to the Corporation to allow those who saw fit to leave in a proper and negotiated way that would be satisfactory to all involved. These are the things that Orrin desired:

1. Peace. All Orrin wanted was to settle this disagreement in a gracious way."

--------------------------

Does this "Ambush" attack on Quixtar sound like a "Godly Appeal"???

There is nothing "christian" about using a lawsuit and threat of negative press as leverage to get your ways.

jthompson said: September 4, 2007 4:23 PM | #

Trevor, this is not "spin" - this is the attorneys of Quixtar responding to a Lawsuit.

SPIN is what a PR firm is hired to do like TEAM hiring ASHTON Partners. There is nothing wrong to me with what they do, but you would call in SPIN.

Ashton - hired by TEAM to "Position information to make look good" - go to freetheibo and ashton websites for more info.

DennisW said: September 4, 2007 4:52 PM | #

I read Pastor Dickie's letter on freetheibo.

I also read the lawsuit Brief about the August 9th infamous day (which corresponds to an Orrin/Dickie blog account of the August 9 meeting that I read).

I agree. (thought i do not agree with all jthompson posts). I do agree. Orrin Woodward and TEAM executives do not appear 100% congruent in their message.

I do not know Orrin and leaders of team - they may be great people but the way they have sought their goals of being independent of quixtar, is apalling at best.

Thank you Beth for making available this brief.

oldUNIONdog said: September 4, 2007 5:14 PM | #

Jthompson: Orrin says it best, to build something takes top dollar in knowledge, wisdom and money. To tear something down only takes minimum wage. You are a minimum wage thinker. It's obvious you have built nothing and have the fruit on the tree to show for it. You choose to tear down businesses and charcter as that is easy and requiers no skills. JUST LET US GO. Everyone on my team is close friends and relatives. quixtar didn't build this business, I did. Quixtar will loose even if they win in court. I will wait the six months and go with Orrin and so will most of my team. Not because of what I say, but of what I do. They follow leaders not mindless corps.

FOR THE RECORD: Orrin wanted 20 bench mark products to compete with the Wal-marts, not the entire catalog. Something we could be proud of, instead of hiding to the last possible moment. I don't know from where your bitterness of Orrin comes from, but it is obvious. Take a chill pill and build your own buisness, I mean Amway gives you everything you need. They even have an online university. An employee teaching another employee to build a business, what a concept.

Aron Gannon said: September 4, 2007 6:20 PM | #

jthompson,

Thanks for defending our businesses powered by Quixtar. When I referenced you in my comment in the Alticore blog under "Texas" I thought that you were an IBO. I originally thought that your wisdom could have more impact out in the marketplace. I appreciate what you're doing when you expose the weaknesses in Woodward's lawsuit. You've helped to reinforce my belief that I'm doing the right thing by pursuing my goals with a business powered by Quixtar.

Concerned IBO said: September 4, 2007 7:31 PM | #

Hey jthompson, do you have any kind of insurance? Bet you do. Why? In case something bad happens, right?

Now, the facts of the issue with Team and Orrin Woodward are these: Orrin and Chris (Brady) went to Quixtar to seek peace, believing that it COULD happen. Win-win is the concept. They hoped that Mike Mohr and Sharon Grider would also be willing to find common ground, after presenting their ideas FOR DISCUSSION, Quixtar left the room for 2 and 1/2 hours.

When they did return, they presented Orrin and Chris their termination papers. No discussion. So, who ambushed who here? Who fired the first shot?

Yes, Orrin and Chris had insurance, they had spoken to an attorney and were ready IF the worst case occurred. And it did. Their suit would have never been filed if Mike Mohr and Sharon Grider had been the people of integrity Orrin & Chris hoped they would be.

To me, that's just smart. You were smart enough to buy insurance; so were they. Will Durant said, "Pray for peace, but keep your powder dry." Ronald Regan said, "Trust, but verify." And a long time ago, Nehemiah rebuilt the wall, but always posted a guard.

It just smart business. Too bad it came down like it did. I wish it had never happened. Seems to me like both parties are suffering needlessly.

Peter M Burr MD said: September 4, 2007 9:05 PM | #

Trevor,

Gee, your sword had a double edge...oops!

I could not be more pleased than to see with my own eyes how straightforward the corporation's arguments in defense are. Not that I ever doubted it myself, but the web is full of spurious accusations that the corporation uses all kinds of illegitimate legalese to prevent the guys on their white horses from trumpeting the truth.

One thing you do NOT have to be to understand this brief is a fancy lawyer...it's plain on the face of it.

I'm proud to be a Quixtar and Amway IBO. I have had no hesitation about telling the story of this business to anyone, warts and all. Golly, does that mean there are people out there who are willing to listen to the plan and don't get blown out when they learn it's AMWAY online? You mean they want to get into a turn-key opportunity to sell great stuff? AMAZING, isn't it?

When you are truly honest and provide the personal interaction, teaching, and support that this business was founded on, people respect you and what you are doing....period.

rdknyvr said: September 4, 2007 11:09 PM | #

Peter M Burr, exactly!!!

And while we're handing out kudo's, hats off to Alticor for putting the muzzle on their Blog (so far) and recognizing a true professional -- BETH DORNAN -- to point us to the Legal Brief in a modest but confident manner. Occam's Razor applies -- simple and elegant is the best way to take and hold the honorable high ground of 'public' opinion. Lets hope this is the new tenor of the tone going forward.

makingadifference said: September 5, 2007 5:53 AM | #

WHAT? NO MENTION OF THE RULING TODAY IN TEXAS BY A FEDERAL COURT? HELLO...

Editor's Note by Katie Pearsall:
For information on this ruling, please see the post on the Alticor Media Blog.

jthompson said: September 5, 2007 10:42 AM | #

Concerned IBO said:

September 4, 2007 7:31 PM | #

Thanks for replying to this thread Concerned IBO.

By reading your others posts, i think you do care for all ibos/people... not just one group alone like TEAM>

reply:

A Lawsuit is not Insurance. a negative PR campaign is not insurance.

Calling Quixtar an Illegal Pyramid is NOT Insurance. That is deceit or ruthless business at best.

No wonder the intial "Go TEAM GO" was written with passion..... the audacity of Orrin is amazing in this event.

I work in software consulting business. We have a 2year non-compete agreement. If I decide to do what Orrin tried to do and ask for a meeting with my owner to ask to waive a contract that I signed... "seeking peace" and the owner said "No"... and then I file a Lawsuit and use the internet and media for a Negative PR campaign against my Company... that is not Insurance.... that is Revenge at best.

The non-compete has been around i think since 2002 (anyone asked Q/A yet about this rule?). Orrin has signed this agreement and agreed to non-compete for the last 4-5 years. He is a big IBO, he actually reads what he signs with a Lawyer. He has downline Lawyer named Matthew Abraham. Orrin said NOTHING about the non-compete for the last 5 years. It protected HIM and helped TEAM to grow to big size w/o worrying about people taking his downline to another mlm... which happens all the time in the industry (trust me i have previous mlm experience from 1998 to 2001 before quixtar)

TEAM - i remind you. I like you. You may be more refined than me right now.... but are goals and values are very similar... God, Family, Country, Free Enterprise. I love the mentorship in this business. I love the community and friends. I love the effect on our kids like you. Orrin may be a great guy.... loving, strong character, and amazing Leadership... BUT wake up to the fact that there was nothing "Godly" about how Orrin handled himself on Aug9 and the time around it.

ss3251 said: September 5, 2007 1:03 PM | #

Jthompson,

What you say proves an ambush does no such thing. It simply proves that Orrin and Chris thought ahead and were prepared for the worst case scenario if it were to happen. They were going to discuss a parting of ways with the company and stood to lose million dollar businesses. They would have been foolish to not have the suit prepared ahead of time if what happened were to have happened.

UplineDad said: September 5, 2007 2:15 PM | #

Alticor continues to claim ownership of my LOS. I didn't get my LOS from Quixtar. Quixtar got it from me. Quixtar didn't develop my team, I and my LOS did. My LOS includes my family and friends. Quixtar only knows about them from us. If anything our relationship is our proprietory information that we lent to Quixtar.

jthompson said: September 5, 2007 3:28 PM | #

TEAM lawsuits and TROs

TEAM wants Quixtar permanently declared an illegal pyramid and wants the 2 year non-compete waived for all their former Quixtar downline IBOSs.

Quit pretending like you have great victories - TEAM (Orrin...) still have to follow the 2 year non-compete and still a real business, unlike TEAM.

rdknyvr said: September 5, 2007 4:00 PM | #

UplineDad, sit back and sip a cool one (XS of course!), and read my reply to a similar misconception under Todd Krause's blog entry: http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/09/03/IBO-Independence.aspx#9650

With appreciation,

rdknyvr said: September 5, 2007 4:12 PM | #

UplineDad, ooops, my mistake. The actual stat that Chuck G was trying to construct was for FOUNDERS Emeralds or above... so not only is he cutting out all the "non-Anglo" groups achievers', but he's cutting out ALL the new Emeralds.

Should there be more? Yes.

Have others of us pointed out the relatively flat net growth profile of the past 6 years, long before TEAM leadership tried to grab the issue? Yes.

Has it in fact been a key point of concern and action on the part of Quixtar executives and leaders for the past two years YES, YES, YES. That's what the Transformation is all about, that you don't want to participate in.

jthompson said: September 5, 2007 4:47 PM | #

ss3251 said:

September 5, 2007 1:03 PM | #

"What you say proves an ambush does no such thing. It simply proves that Orrin and Chris thought ahead and were prepared for the worst case scenario if it were to happen."

analogy:

a Women in High School is caught cheating on Final Exam (breaks student rules of conduct). Her math teacher catches her about to expell her from school and fail her. She decides to hand out a (prepared) bogus Sexual Harassment lawsuit before the Teacher can make the news public. All attention is diverted from the student trying to be exempt from the rules of conduct that she agreed upon in the student honor code, instead teacher has to defend himself against TROs, lawsuits, etc... attempting to ruin his career forver.

All is prevented if She/Student would just follow the rules or drop out of the school quietly. NO. Instead she wants to take all the students with her... lieing about the teachers and school.....

same thing.

ss3251 said: September 5, 2007 6:05 PM | #

Yes jthompson, it is obviously the same thing. What was I thinking?

whatever... lol

Martina said: September 5, 2007 6:05 PM | #

jthompson, I think you may have misspoke.

First, the non-compete was added to Business Rules in 2003 or 2004. There was no notification to IBOs at all. In fact, a long-time member of the IBOAI board who sat out the year the non-compete was added DID NOT EVEN KNOW IT WAS THERE until two months ago.

The non-compete WAS NOT there in 1999 when I signed my registration form and received my Business Compendium. Quixtar has never sent me an updated one. Yes I can read it online, but who would have thought? And, after I have built a decent size business, am I supposed to walk away because they ADDED a non-compete to the contract?

Technically this would be like my mortgage company coming to me and saying, "I know we both agreed that the terms of our contract were ______, but our side decided to change that, which we can do at any time, without notice. Even though the contract said one thing when you signed it, you will be held to ANY changes we decide to make in the future.

Of course that won't fly well in court. However, the IBOs who joined after the non-compete was added will possibly encounter problems. Orrin is fighting so that those IBOs can have a choice too.

As for the non-compete you signed as a software consultant, you were probably aware of it at the time of signing. Also, it is pretty tough to find a judge who will enforce an employment non-compete. Most courts are reluctant to cut off an individual's income source.

The real issue is this: The Quixtar business model that we all joined is being significantly changed. Not just the name change to Amway, but all the other new rules that are being added. Would we have joined the business had these rules been in place before? Not likely. Quixtar is free to make any changes they want to their business model. But when the rules are changed so significantly, IBOs should really have a choice as to whether they wish to continue under the new rules. WITHOUT having to give up six months or two years of income.

Josh said: September 6, 2007 12:55 AM | #

Martina,

Unfortunately it is you who has mispoken. That rule, as you point out, went into effect in 2003-4. You have had, personally, 3 years to review the changes. If you haven't reviewd them, then shame on you as a business owner.

In my traditional business laws change every year and sometimes even sooner than that. It is my responsibility to read, understand, and question if need be, those laws and/or regulation changes. I can't hide behind the excuse, "well you never sent me those changes", in any court of law. You are no different. Ignorance is not an excuse.

The fact that you didn't know, for 3 years nonetheless, shows a weak business and business thought process. You need to know your business, both products and regulations. Which seems to GROSSLY absent from many of the TEAM crew. Sorry, you won't find sympathy with me with that excuse, nor will you find it IMO in a court of law.

jthompson said: September 6, 2007 9:38 AM | #

Martina said:

September 5, 2007 6:05 PM | #

So if the non-compete came out in 2004 - this means that Orrin signed, knew about, agreed... with the non-compete in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007.

When you have a business as big as Orrin and you have downline Business Law experts like M. Abraham, then you know what you are signing.

Bo Short in i believe 2003 - is the person as far as I know that made this non-compete rule needed. He failed at his Quixtar business with Team in Focus, then instead of doing the work again to build another mlm business, he decides do Dateline and weblinks to steal Quixtar IBOS.

Martina said: September 6, 2007 10:26 AM | #

Josh,

You are absolutely correct. I should have read the Rules of Conduct every single year. Ignorance is no excuse. And after I worked for four to five years building a team, and a new rule is added that I don't like, I am supposed to....?

Of course I wasn't going to walk away at that point. I never thought I would have to. I believed (silly, naive me!) that the corporation would have no reason to change it's business model. I believed that since Amway/Quixtar had been started to create an opportunity for average people to begin and build a long-term business, and they had continued with that for over forty years, there was no reason to think that would change in the future. And I believed the IBOAI was there to make sure the deal didn't change.

Now I know I was wrong. The bottom line is, as I said, they can change their company in any way they want. In fact, I think they are doing the right thing for their company by pursuing retail sales directly to customers and doind away with IBOs. Life will be much simpler for them. (If you don't think this is what they are planning, well, we'll see.)

But instead of being honest with everyone, admitting that is the direction they plan to go, and giving us the option to leave or continue as "sales representatives," they have devised changes and new rules just to make it impossible to build a business. They WANT the INDEPENDENT business owners to quit; and those who are happy just selling products will still be happy.

So if they WANT us to quit, why don't they just drop the 6-month non-compete? It's called pride.

Stayin w Q said: September 6, 2007 10:35 AM | #

TEAM is trying to take all the downline a huge one too, they gained from the Amway/Quixtar opportunity. What amazes me is all the TEAM ibos following instead of leading. It is clear TEAM makes more off the tools you buy then the products moved thru Q. So when the choice came TEAM decided to fight for their business(tools) TEAM is just another LOS gone greedy. Unfortunate I am part of that LOS, however I am staying with AMWAY/QUIXTAR. Afterall thats is where it all started for all of these IBOs remember guys? Quixtar Amway all the way !!!!!

rdknyvr said: September 6, 2007 10:41 AM | #

Josh, I'm with you on that.

Martina, et. al, actually the changes WERE posted via a notice at What's New on your Quixtar home page when you sign in. I saw, them, read them, I did feel that they were quite firmly worded, but after reflection decided th accept them and I continued with my auto renew. THEY WERE THERE FOR ALL TO SEE. It was in the form of a notice stating that the IBOAI Board -- with your boys on it and voting for them -- had approved the rule changes and stated what they were.

In subsequent years, there have been periodic notices to check the legal updates section. Even today, as an active business owner you should be periodically checking under the tab, "Build and Manage My Business" and then under "Updates to Business Rules, Laws and Legal Bulletins" on the right hand side of your screen.

It makes me wonder what kind of business leadership habits and practices TEAM was teaching, if you don't know this basic navigation and business management stuff.

Utah said: September 6, 2007 10:50 AM | #

Brief was better written...but...

Quixtar is still missing the point.

Even if they win the Calif. lawsuit, they won the battle but have lost the war. There is still time to end this whole thing.

1. Alticor should realize that the typical IBO feels lied to about changing the name back to Amway. If they wanted that option, they should have kept Amway alive in the US in 2000. Since the IBOs chose Quixtar and left Amway, it is unfair for the corporation to ignore the initial objection of the IBOAI and the IBOs generally to change the name back. Now if the corporation would announce that every IBO would have a choice, like back in 1999 this whole thing might end. (I for one still has not received any official notice, even after 16 years of being an IBO).

2. The corporation needs to offer Don & Nancy Wilson and Randy & Val Haugen back their IBO status and group, along with the others. There can be conditions, like dropping the lawsuits, etc. Quixtar violated their own rules, or the perception is there.

3. Put the group that stood up to Quixtar's attorney in a room with Rich Devos, Doug and Steve V. Leave out the attorneys. Fix this thing before the divorce finalizes.

Utah said: September 6, 2007 11:01 AM | #

Josh,

Martina's main point is correct. I get mad every time I get a notice in the mail that my agreement with a credit card company has changed, but I do get an notice.

Quixtar decided to make the change back to Amway, without providing a notice to ALL IBOs, nor an explanation as to why they have ignore many of the IBOAI boards concerns.

The first I knew of any of this, was August 10th. Yes, I understand contracts. I write and sign them all the time with my other business. If I changed the rules like this with one of my Clients, I would be out a client at best.

Alticor only has 20% of the volume from Quixtar - their numbers from their press. If they can hold on to even 1/2 of the Quixtar IBOs, they figure they still have 90%. They forget that the could have 10s of thousands of people in the US leaving with a bad taste in their mouth. They also need to realize that many of the IBOs in other countries respect the people they tossed. I really don't know Orrin very much, but Don & Nancy Wilson and Randy and Val Haugen have been great leaders. Lucky I haven't been made to choose sides yet.

jthompson said: September 6, 2007 2:36 PM | #

Martina, (Myths about Amway)

Before you solidify your new view of Quixtar and its changes, test it!

I have sent a list of myths that have originated and been spread from freetheibo.com to IBOAI by email.

Make a list of all the new things you have "learned" about Amway Transformation going on.... call Quixtar until you can talk to your Sales Advisor.... go through the list, then decide.

Martina said: September 6, 2007 5:18 PM | #

jthompson,

I'm not sure what myths you are talking about. I have read a good portion of freetheibo, and while there is some rather interesting commentary there, that is not where I go for information. I attended not only a Quixtar Platinum seminar, I also have been to every Achiever's trip since 2000. (Las Vegas was my first--the Bellagio--it was beautiful.) I attended every single business meeting at every single Achiever's trip, because my uplines Orrin and Laurie Woodward told me we all needed to get the info the corporation would share. (I wanted to go shopping. :)

When I registered with Quixtar, the Woodward's told me there were two ways to generate income. The first way was to sell products. Laurie spent a lot of time helping me to understand the Artistry line, and in fact she arranged for a large group of us to attend PEP's at the Artistry Institute on at least four different occasions. She also sponsored a seminar featuring the SAM machine to help us in promoting the Artistry line.

Artistry is not the only thing the Woodward's promoted. Every year we would put on a Product Fair for Team IBO's and their guests, and presentations were given on the Nutrilite line, cookware, gift incentive albums, eSpring/water filter, and all the core products.

I was told that the second way to build income was to build teams. This in fact is what will provide residual income. THAT is what made the business different from a job. (If I only wanted a sales job--not that there's anything wrong with that--I would have looked for something more lucrative to sell.) The beauty of the Quixtar model was that you have both! Great products, AND a way to generate residual income.

Philosophically, I have NO problem with selling the products. (In reality, well, let's just say there is room for improvement. I originally picked accounting for a career so I would not have to sell.) I LOVE the products! I am a faithful Nutrilite consumer and promoter; I will be lost without my Artistry skin care; there are eSprings in my house, my parents house, my aunt's house, my in-laws' house, .... I don't have to go on, do I?

I truly believe Quixtar/Amway is implementing these changes because they want to eliminate the business/team/group-building part of the business. They want to focus solely on product sales. How else can you explain the name change, the requirement that every Platinum provide documentation that at least 10% of their new IBOs (first four months) have a minimum in retail sales or the Platinum does not get their bonus? Or that if one IBO in a Platinum's team does something incorrectly, the entire Platinum's group is suspended from sponsoring until the whole team has been "re-educated." Or that if three IBOs in a Platinum's team do something wrong, the Platinum is terminated? Or that if someone in a Platinum's upline does something to anger the corporation management, their whole education system can be called "illegal" and no one gets any of those great new bonuses that are coming out?

jt, I like you. I really, really do. I think you are very articulate, and also compassionate. And, I think having a non-compete is fine, as long as the terms of the business don't change. But the company is changing the terms of our agreement. Substantially. That's okay, that's their right. Just don't hold me to it as if nothing had changed.

Josh said: September 6, 2007 5:19 PM | #

Martina said: "You are absolutely correct. And after I worked for four to five years building a team, and a new rule is added that I don't like, I am supposed to....?"

Josh says: Talk to your upline, the IBOAI board. If enough voices are heard they will change, barring it is not damaging to the corporation, their profits, or reputation.

Martina Says: I never thought I would have to. I believed (silly, naive me!) that the corporation would have no reason to change it's business model. I believed that since Amway/Quixtar had been started to create an opportunity for average people to begin and build a long-term business, and they had continued with that for over forty years, there was no reason to think that would change in the future.

Josh says: The model hasn't changed the regulations changed. Namely to protect the corporation from looting.

They also are not doing away with IBO's. They are pushing for a more balanced business, therefore the new IBO can make more money faster. Focusing and not hiding the fact that selling is required is part of it. Now this is no longer the door to door selling (although that is still fine to do), but rather a simple word of mouth, set up appointments etc.

Martina says: So if they WANT us to quit, why don't they just drop the 6-month non-compete? It's called pride.

Josh says: It is not pride, it is simple business. Every major corporation has this in-place with their sales people or recruiting people. Get with the times.

However, I think this not your issue directly. You want to keep whatever team you have built up to this point and be able to take them directly into another MLM with TEAM. Which, my dear, is why the rule is there! :)

Josh said: September 6, 2007 5:31 PM | #

Utah says: Quixtar decided to make the change back to Amway, without providing a notice to ALL IBOs, nor an explanation as to why they have ignore many of the IBOAI boards concerns.

Josh says: It is solely at their discretion to make these changes. Not only because it is truly their opportunity with you are partaking, but also because it is in the CONTRACT you signed. Which leads me to my next point.

If you "understand" contracts then you should zero beef with Quixtar. 1) Rules can and do get changed by the corporation as they see fit--end of discussion

You say you write and sign them all the time...great...do you read them? As I pointed out to Maria, if you have been an IBO before 2003, then shame on you for not knowing about the non-compete change. If you were registered inside of 2003, then shame on you for not reading the contract you signed.

As I said above, I don't believe the actual rule is what you are complaining about. You want to be able to leave with whatever team you have built, and move directly into a competing MLM, as to loot the downline from Quixtar. That is the very reason that rule is in place!

Utah, also know that you are NOT a client of Quixtar. Just like I am not a client of our local and state government with which I operate my business. It is solely on my shoulders to stay up to date on the rules and regulations. Even if I dislike a rule or regulation, doesn't mean I will cease to operate my business.

Josh said: September 6, 2007 5:41 PM | #

Maria,

With those changes you mentioned I don't see it as getting rid of IBOs. Wouldn't that be counter-productive?

What they are forcing is responsibility for your business and if you are a Platinum responsibility for your team. Which in my opinion, was severely lacking in many people's businesses. By forcing people to be responsible it will inevitably increase the reputation of both Quixtar and ultimately Amway.

The only people that would be uncomfortable with these rules changes are those who not compliant with them. For those that have built proper businesses it will be and is a non-issue.

Maria, I do appreciate your comments and thoughts as well. I also thank you for speaking your mind on these subjects and being open to a lively, yet diplomatic debate.

Aron Gannon said: September 6, 2007 8:05 PM | #

jthompson,

I can't remember which Quixtar blog it was where you last wrote back to me. Since you've posted here recently I'm guessing that you'll get this. You wrote that you were going to try to make it to a local TEAM open meeting. Does a pro-Quixtar TEAM downline from Orrin and Chris even exist? During the last few years I've heard some negative comments about Orrin and his system from my upline; but I like to create my own opinions from my own experiences, rather than adopt them from others. Anyways, Orrin's business has nothing to do with mine. However, earlier this summer one of my co-workers (I'll call him Bob) told me that he attended a business meeting where they served him a can of XS. I got this bad feeling in the pit of my stomach as I realized that I missed an opportunity. I overlooked this guy because he never showed any interest in the products that I was marketing. I offer almost everyone a sample of XS where I work, but he declined. He ended up getting in Chris Brady's downline. He asked me, "Are you in TEAM?" I responded, "I'm a part of a team. I have a Quixtar business. In other words, I get my products from Quixtar." I found it weird that he was convinced that he was not in the same business that I was in. It was as if he thought there was more than one company that distributed products like XS. Later on he told me that TEAM had a separate compensation plan from Quixtar. I thought maybe he was talking about a Business Support Material compensation plan. I didn't probe him about stacking, but he described how his upline was required to register new IBOs under him. We live in Michigan, and in a very short time he had someone from Arizona in his downline. That might have been fine. Maybe someone in his downline knew someone from Arizona. The thing that got me fired up (besides not talking to him before TEAM did) is that he began to try to steal my clients that I serve in my workplace. These are people who have purchased hundreds and even thousands of dollars of products from me. Bob visited one of my clients (whom I had previously contacted about the opportunity) with his upline and showed him their TEAM plan. When I talked to this client to explain that I was interested in continuing to service him as a customer and/or show him the opportunity, he had no idea that what Bob's TEAM showed him was the same business that I was in. Apparently they never mentioned Quixtar as the supplier or any of the products. I'm certain of this because I had previously given this client a variety of samples as well as a catalog. Bob is a great guy and we get along well with one another. I was wondering if he was taught to try to steal customers or prospects from other IBOs. Anyway, I don't have any animosity towards TEAM, but I've found that some of the accusations regarding their system and procedures are valid.

By the way, you've mentioned the Winter's organization. That's a phenomenal group. For the last year my support team has invited exclusively Winter's diamonds and emeralds to speak at our monthly functions. Many of them have been in the business a relatively short time. Some are in their twenties and they're retired from their original careers. That really builds belief.

Utah said: September 6, 2007 11:10 PM | #

Josh,

You obviously missed my main point. That being said, before Amway existed, they started the American Way Assoc. Rich and Jay didn't want to have what they had happen at Nutralite - the corporation change the deal, without any say from the field. That is just what is happening. 8 of the IBOAI or more, we don't know for sure, objected to the changes. Alticor said tuff. Jay V. would turn over in his grave to see this happen.

The ONLY fair thing, maybe not the only legal thing, would be to allow each IBO to choose to stay with Quixtar with the current business, or choose to go back to the name Amway, with the new changes. Alticor and Quixtar are not giving us this choice either, why because the super majority of all Quixtar IBOs would choice to stay with Quixtar as it was prior to June 1st of this year. With any flaws, it was better than the direction that Alticor has been posting on this an other blogs, but not telling the average IBO, or giving them a say. The reason this business exists, is the IBOAI board. You toss that, and you toss Rich and Jay's dream. That seems to be what the kids are doing.

Utah said: September 7, 2007 10:13 AM | #

Josh,

One other point. You have been bashing Martina about rules and contracts. The main point is Quixtar, in my opinion is in violation of its own rules.

"Upon final notification by the Corporation with respect to those changes presented to the IBOA International Board, such changes will be communicated to all IBOs in a timely manner in official Corporation literature, and shall become effective upon publication. In order to preserve the goals and purposes of the IBO Plan, the Corporation reserves to itself the sole right to adopt, amend, modify, supplement, or rescind any or all of these Rules, as necessary with respect to cases of Rules enforcement. In the event the Corporation deprives an IBO of a substantial and material property right through such adoption, amendment, modification, supplementation, or rescission, such IBO shall have the right to bring such matter to the attention of the IBOA International Board for further discussion, evaluation, and recommendation."

They have not notified all IBOs of the changes that have taken place as of Sep. 5. We are required to give out the new SA4400 Replacement, which is now available to order, but was not sent to all IBOs even before Sep. 5th. This new form mentions the name change on page 2. Quixtar still has not told all the current IBOs about the name change, as is requiring the current IBOs to notify prospects about the name change that they may not even know about. Not only is this not fair, it violates the contract Quixtar has with the IBOs in my opinion.

jthompson said: September 7, 2007 10:32 AM | #

Martina said:

September 6, 2007 5:18 PM | #

thanks for your long and thoughtful message

Aron Gannon said:

September 6, 2007 8:05 PM | #

My comments have only been based on what I know... i have not commented on TEAM methods of business... so thanks for this message.

Aron, the MANY blogs that have hundreds of pages of talking about Orrin, etc... and talking about TEAM TEAM TEAM supports your experience. They got into TEAM, not quixtar. They promote the TEAM word, so when people google, they find the blogs that edify TEAM and TEAM Leaders.

Other ibo teams do not do this.

jthompson said: September 7, 2007 10:35 AM | #

The ONLY IBOAI board members (elected only by TEAM downline, not Corporation, not non-team ibos) that caused trouble / disagreed with Quixtar changes... were TEAM associated ibo leaders.

The 10 other IBOS MegaLeaders on the IBOAI board do not support the actions of TEAM, Orrin, etc...

Lawyers are preventing IBOAI Leaders from putting their names all over the internet with supporting comments.... b/c if they do, TEAM/Orrin will SUE them also.

jthompson said: September 7, 2007 10:51 AM | #

TEAM spreading myths

Martina, thanks again for your msg - I spend lots of time on freetheibo... i have read every major writing on their website and forum (Ron, Chuck, Randy, letters, lawsuites, TROs, blog posts...)

Advice - VERIFY all you have "learned" about Amway new changes with Amway before you believe them. You know the bible proverb that says a story sounds true until you hear the otherside.

I have talked with my upline diamonds, iboai board, and read Alticor blogs..... and i believe your beliefs about the Quixtar changes are more myth, than fact.

Martina statement i was replying to....

"I truly believe Quixtar/Amway is implementing these changes because they want to eliminate the business/team/group-building part of the business. They want to focus solely on product sales....."

Martina, i write this sincerely. If you ar Q12 and have put much of your life into your TEAM/Quixtar business.... Make EFFORT to verify things before you quit business.....

Specifically,

GAMEPLAN FOR CONCERNED/MATURE TEAM IBOS

1. Call your Quixtar Sales Advisor for Platinums and up....

2. Send a Letter of your concerns respecfully like i know you would.

3. Setup an appointment. Fly to Michigan and have a meeting for couple hours with a Manager who can answer your questions.... shake the hand of Jim Payne or someone high up... have them give you their word about what they have said

4. Pray (after having heard both sides of story), and listen to your inner witness and receive wisdom from the one that IS The Truth ("God is not the author of confusion")

5. make a Decision and take action - Make your decision right by your actions.

Josh said: September 7, 2007 2:25 PM | #

Utah,

Perhaps you missed my point as well. I understand you are disappointed with the unilateral decision to change the name, I was against too (see some of the early posts by me on that decision).

I also agree it is ok to object to that decision. Once I understood what the corporation is trying to accomplish (which is FAR more than just a name change), I got on board with it.

You are always welcomed to quit, that is the choice you have. Return the last six months of products, if you so wish, wait 6 months and do what you want legally.

Remember being "fair" is a two way street my friend. Why would the corp allow you to A) Immediately leave with all your team B) To immediately start a competing MLM? How is that fair for the corporation?

It would be similar to the CEO of a global bank, to immediately leave and take the top leadership (that he may or may not have hired himself) and start a competing bank the next day. It doesn't happen and shouldn't happen.

Regards

That is "fair" way to do it.

Utah said: September 7, 2007 5:26 PM | #

Josh,

I have said nothing about the 6 month rule, or taking any group with me if I were to decide to quit. What I am saying is that the corporation is making a big mistake, not following their own rules re: notification to IBOs and that the obvious was to get all the IBOs on board is to give them the choice. Obviously most of the IBOs would not choose to change to Amway, but if the Corporation does do as good of job with future advertising and other moves, eventually they might win us over. Then we wouldn't feel like they are being jerks, which they are.

DRO said: September 7, 2007 7:17 PM | #

Not sure what this really means or what prompted it to be posted on the "Team Home, Independent Business Leaders Consortium" page on 9/6/2007 - http://www.the-team.biz/Articles/tabid/53/ID/678/Default.aspx - but it suggest that although TEAM may have grown out of it's founder's roots of being Quixtar IBOs and, perhaps even learning how to be an LDSP, its now officially become a business under its own steam. Without those IBOs who became IBOs under the former TEAM LOS who would their clients be?

"Each of us are called upon to be leaders at different times in our lives, whether at home, at church, in our communities, at work, or in a business. The TEAM is a leadership development service provider (LDSP) designed to help individuals learn leadership principles, grow in their personal leadership abilities, and develop other leaders. The TEAM is not affiliated with any particular company, business, opportunity or enterprise."

Aron Gannon said: September 7, 2007 11:38 PM | #

Doggone-it, the blog bug bit me again. Utah, You have a good point in your Sept. 7, 10:13 AM post. I found it weird that a friend/client of mine told me that he heard about the name change in the media somewhere. This was last spring. I figured, shouldn't I know about this before him? I told him I wouldn't believe it until I got confirmation from my team or from Quixtar. I never got the confirmation from either source until I searched for it in these blogs last month and asked my upline Diamond. Here's the positive spin I'm putting on it. First, I don't have anything else going for me, financially, but my dead-end job. I need to make this business work. I love the products. I've got satisfied customers. I love the organization (support team) that I'm a part of. These things over-power the negatives. Second, I like to think of the name-change as if Quixtar is merging with the global, multibillion-dollar Amway business opportunity. This way we're in a better position to take advantage of Amway's global resources. People are used to company mergers. It happens all the time in business. (Maybe the blog administrator could comment on whether or not this is an accurate representation of the name-change aspect of the business transformation.) Third, there's a large crop of young people in North America who want to be a part of something big and profitable, and they don't have any Amway baggage. I think that if we expect people to cringe at the Amway name, we'll probably get what we expect. Believe it or not (I'm risking my credibility here) I never heard of Amway before I registered in the Quixtar business. Yes, I'm in my early 30's and I've lived in Michigan for most of my life. You're wondering what cave I just crawled out of, but yes, I didn't have any Amway baggage. We'll just have to step forward when someone asks about Amway, rather than pull back.

Josh said: September 8, 2007 11:51 PM | #

Utah,

Understood about the notification business. I agree they should have told us IBOs before THEY leaked it to the papers.

That being said, it still doesn't excuse anyone from the contract they signed with Quixtar.

Here is some food for thought: Found in Business Rules PDF.

"....From time to time, the contents of these

documents are changed. Quixtar will, prior to final

action, submit to the IBOA International Board

for discussion, evaluation, and recommendation

changes within these documents which may

materially affect IBOs including, but not limited to,

changes to the IBO Plan, IBO agreements, and

modifications to the Rules of Conduct for IBOs;.."

So the way I see it, a "final" decision has not been made, even though the intent is there. We as IBOs have not yet received this "official" document(s).

But here is the kicker in that document:

"...Final decision-making authority

with respect to these matters rests with Quixtar..."

Notice how it doesn't say "rests with Quixtar and anyone who thinks they are entitled to make decisions".

It goes on further to say essentially that if you feel wronged by the changes made you can as an:

"IBO shall have the right to bring such matter to the attention of the IBOA International Board for further discussion, evaluation, and recommendation."

Utah, you do an avenue to pursue, if you so choose, whether it will be fruitful, I have no idea.

I will ride out this storm with Quixtar and see what is on the other side. If it is as bad as people say well then I can quit at that time.

You can always quit...so why quit now?

rdknyvr said: September 9, 2007 12:57 AM | #

Aron, if you want to get your business moving, and you're also a personal trainer, you should take a close look at the whole Personalized Health concept... the Gensona DNA tests, how they tie in with all the Nutrilite products, not just the IL-1 Heart Health supplement. Hope you've done your tests, input the data into the online Personalized Health Quextionnaire, and gotten your Lifestyle Recommendations Report, etc. It could be a great service add-on you provide for your training clients.

Here are a couple links within the Interleukin Genetics site that will give you more detail, if you're interested. Also note that they are coming out with two new tests next year -- predisposition for osteoporosis (if you have any Baby Boomer clients) and genetic predisposition for weight gain. http://www.ilgenetics.com/content/products-services/education.jsp

and scroll down to "Genetics of Inflammation" link to pdf file http://www.ilgenetics.com/content/products-services/gensona/heart-health.jsp

extra info for health care professionals http://www.ilgenetics.com/content/products-services/gensona/general-nutrition.jsp

and scroll down to the two links to pdf background files on B Vitamin Genes, and Oxidative Stress Genes.

If you "get" this stuff, it will rock your business!!! :)

Bridgett said: September 9, 2007 4:34 AM | #

Utah and Josh,

Regarding informing IBOs of the name change:

Quixtar did not tell me about the name change.

The day Quixtar told the media, is the day a voicemail was passed downline to our entire LOA (25+ QUALIFIED Diamondships) about the name change.

I'm wondering if there is a delicate balance that Quxitar must have, so that LOAs don't get all bent out of shape, if Quxtar "goes around them" and informs IBOs directly of major issues like this.

Maybe the Corp felt that the LOAs could break it to us gently. :)

Some STILL have not broken the news to their groups..which is kind of naive. Hmm, MAJOR piece of information and you want your group to find out from the media? Or the Internet? Or a neighbor? That's a fantastic way to lose someone's trust.

Or maybe they were naive in thinking that the Corp woud change their minds. Ya know, like maybe if we threatened them in some way, like with a lawsuit and bad publicity, they'd keep the Quixtar name, and then we'd never have to tell our groups of a name change 'cause we would prevent it from happening with our threats.

Just some late-night musings...

rdknyvr said: September 9, 2007 11:16 PM | #

Aron, mixed you up again with Anon IBO on Ray Alexander's thread... must have been getting late when I posted. But the ideas still apply, regardless of what you do... maybe you're also a personal trainer :)

Utah said: September 9, 2007 11:41 PM | #

Josh,

Why do you put words in my mouth? Where did I say I would quit? I didn't. I ,for one, have at least the rest of the year to decide.

Bridgett,

You have a point that some individuals upline knew before I did of the name change. I was wondering if the voicemail you received came from the corporation or the IBOAI, or a single IBO?

Aron Gannon said: September 10, 2007 12:06 AM | #

rdknyvr,

No, I'm not a personal trainer, but the health and wellness side of our business is my favorite part. Maybe some time I'll make some time to check out those web sites. By the way, I figured out I can just copy and paste your blog name when I want to write to you. (I only said that because earlier I wrote that I struggled with the spelling of your blog name.)

Bridgett said: September 10, 2007 1:00 AM | #

Hi Utah,

The voicemail came from our Founder's Crown. He passed it down to all his Diamonds, who then passed it down to all their Platinums, who then passed it down to all their individual IBOs.

And on June 19th (a few days later) the release "Brand New Day" (which was a Business Communication letter that went out to all "pin Diamonds and Qualified Emeralds") was posted on our LOA's website.

Beth over at Inside Quixtar posted that Biz Comm letter http://insidequixtar.opportunityzone.com/2007/06/14/Its-about-a-transformation.aspx#comments

Once I heard the voicemail (June 15th or 16th), I Googled “new Amway” and Beth’s post at OZ is what came up in the search.

That’s where I posted my very first comment at OZ on June 18th. My very angry comment. More like livid, raging comment.

I’ve become a bit more civil over the last 12 weeks—probably because of OZ bloggers’ incredible professionalism, kindness, and grace.

And that professionalism, kindness, and grace have also kept me commenting here at OZ all this time, which was not my intention when I first commented. :)

Utah said: September 10, 2007 12:32 PM | #

Bridgett,

Thanks for the response. Obviously someone in my upline didn't say anything. As far as professionalism, kindness.. http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/10/just-go-team/

It is pretty obvious that mistakes were made on both sides, but someone needs to read HTWFIP again...

Josh said: September 10, 2007 4:26 PM | #

Utah,

My intent was not to make you feel like I "was putting words in your mouth". The quote is reference to a book. My apologies.

Bridgett is one of my favorite posters here, and I am glad she decided to stick around.

Anyway, if you can take anything from my last post it is exactly what you are doing. Stay the course and see where things end up. Probably very smart on your behalf.

Regards

Bridgett said: September 11, 2007 1:21 AM | #

Utah,

Yeah...I was talkin' about OZ (Opportunity Zone). AMB is whole different animal. The only logical explanation I can think of for such inflamatory, sensational blogging is that the Alticor Media Blog is geared toward the media, which is attracted to that style.

One of the posts is actually addressed to reporters. http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/15/caveat-emptor/

Another thought is that Alticor would rather people trash-talk on THEIR site, than other ones. It's about control. They have complete control of what happens to that site AFTER all the comments are posted.

It's not very friendly over there. Different set of rules. Moderator allows things like name-calling (personal attacks) that wouldn't be acceptable here at OZ.

If you notice, there isn't a "comment policy" over at AMB. Hmm...

My views about "trash talking" can be found over at Robin's blog http://www.realquixtarblog.com/2007/08/29/Keep-it-real-keep-it-civil.aspx#comments

J Car said: September 12, 2007 9:30 PM | #

I actually live about 15 mins from both Quixtar corp, and Alticor corp.

We were notified about the name change, the advertising campaign that is coming, and the updated compensation plan by our upline diamond on June 13th. We were told about the release to the media ahead of time, and had conference calls about the changes before the media released anything to the public.

We were also told that after the ad campaign, people who had the wrong idea of what the Amway business was, and is now going to be; will no longer be confused. This is not going to be the Amway business that many people are mistakenly thinking of.

The same people who have given Quixtar a bad name, are the same type of people who gave Amway a bad name.

I am a second generation IBO/Distributor, and we as a family of now Quixtar, soon Amway IBO's, are very excited about the name change. We personally know the founding families, and have every faith in their leadership. And also in the plan they have for the future of our business' as a whole.

Utah said: September 13, 2007 2:02 AM | #

Bridgett,

Thanks. You are correct, Alticor is not being friendly.

See their new spin and my comment. I am obviously ticked at both sides. http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/09/12/smog-then-fresh-air/

Just Go Team? Who threw the coffee in Team’s face to start with? Woodward obviously gave Quixtar time to keep all of us out of this mess, and Quixtar wouldn't set down on Aug. 9th. Quixtar filed a Brief a week ago, why did they need more time to file a brief today?

If any of the things that Randy Haugen, Ron Simmons, Chuck G. are saying are true, Quixtar messed up. That being said, should Team have changed a couple of things, like not requiring BSM or products when signing up - yes. Were they willing to talk about changing this - yes.

Woodward’s affidavit does list several prices of items that are competitive per use. Unfortunately, if Quixtar wanted to set down and discuss this over coffee, it is a little late. I told you want to do a month ago..you ignored my suggestions. The whole bunch of IBO leaders have been telling Quixtar what needed to be fixed for years, particularly since June.

Alicor could tell the truth instead of spinning the news. Quixtar has lost lots of rulings the last couple of weeks.

You better figure out how to win this one or we are all toast.

#32 continued..Perhaps I should repeat what I suggested a month ago: Allow all IBOs, in an LOS to have the same choice that we had in 1999. Renew in the new direction Quixtar becoming Amway, or stay in the Quixtar that existed in June of this year. If the corporation really can solve the PR for the Amway name that they claim in US and Canada, IBOs will choose Amway, just like they choose Quixtar in 1999.

Quixtar can not ignore the IBOAI like they have done since June and before. Jody Victor for decades has told any LOS that had him speak that the Corporation could not change the rules without the IBOAI agreeing. It has been shown that that no longer applies. That has to be fixed.

The 3rd thing to do is allow all terminated IBOs, or those resigning since August 9th, to come back, same upline/downline, providing they drop any lawsuits. This would have to include allowing TEAM to be an approved BSM provider, along with allowing Team system. You need to toss the "staking" rule sent out in July and have Team change a couple of things, like not requiring BSM or products when signing up. They had already made sure that no one would be "stacked". See TEAM sign up packet that was in use in July.

4th, Pricing needs to be worked on further, and not just the token things. Nutilite did that with Daily vitamins. Quixtar needs to do that with everything, starting with the most popular items, including DoubleX, SA8, XS, etc...

5th, Simply Nutrilite can not be an open ordering website. They need an IBO number to order, or run them through the process of getting one just like Quixtar.com has for 8 years. I know you will assign one for Simply Nutrilite customers without an IBO, but the whole site, and all the posts from Alticor, lets the IBOs think you don't need us anymore.

This fight should never have started. Mistakes were made of both sides, but Alticor has been so mean and prideful in their moves that they need to fix this now. You have one week. I, for one hope you don't loose the LA lawsuit as Amway and Quixtar will either be finished in the US or the Court will require you to do what I have just posted just to survive.

Both sides have been acting Junior high. Perhaps if Alticor/Quixtar had not been acting like a bunch of bullies, Orin and Chris wouldn't have acted like tattletale go to the press whiners. You really didn't give them a choice. They hoped they had enough protection, you didn't think they would do it, and they called your bluff. Can you say stupid?

That being said, the person that writes the press releases for Alticor, this one and the ones since Go Team Go, should have already been fired. "Corporate Communications" is a disgrace for all IBOs and employees.

Josh said: September 15, 2007 11:05 AM | #

Utah,

Hey man, I don't want to step on your toes here, but the demands you make here are the same demands Orrin and friends are making.

Making such demands is what started the whole thing.

I do appreciate your candor and viewing this from both sides of the table.

Personally I have and will continue to refrain from passing any judgment on either TEAM or Quixtar. Unless I read gross misrepresenting comments from the loonies from TEAM or Quixtar (ie the Alticor Blog).

I don't even read that blog anymore because the author has lost all integrity with me. The folks here are very good which is why I come back to blog.

justsix said: September 15, 2007 5:33 PM | #

I heard Rich Devos speak at a Free Enterprise Conference when he was in the process of transitioning to the next generation. He spoke of a gift he gave them. A book on Pan Am Airlines, a company that once had no equal in the world. Pan Am Airlines went on to lose their market share and went out of business. Rich said that the lesson to be learned from the book was that with without working closely with the field, Quixtar would be the next Pan Am Airlines.

Utah said: September 16, 2007 11:16 PM | #

Josh,

If the 5 items I mentioned are what Orinn & Chris wanted, than, that was only fair.

I thought Orinn wanted them to either change or to let him out of the 6 month/24 month rule early.

I would rather Quixtar just go back to working with the IBOAI board like Rich and Jay promised. That is the key. Quixtar / Alticor wants to do something and the board didn't want them to. Quixtar/Alticor said they were going to do it anyway, since they have change the rules so they can.

The key is the current Quixtar is making us look like we have told lies for 8 years, and making Rich and Jay look like they told lies for decades. The board needs to be able to say not to change and the company listen. That is the reason I go in this 16 years ago.

Josh said: September 17, 2007 1:16 PM | #

Utah,

Making demands and threatening things is not a way for civil discourse and debate.

If you view the name situation (as I did) as a simple name change, then I understand your gripe.

However, if you look at it as Amway absorbing Quixtar back into the fold, then your perspective may change. However, IF and only IF, the company really puts on a huge PR campaign to improve the image and reputation.

If the speculation about what TEAM has done is true (again I will refrain from my own judgment), then it is definitely a good start with terminating them. We shall see.

Canadian IBO 2 said: September 18, 2007 8:21 AM | #

What has TEAM supposedly done?

Utah said: September 18, 2007 7:11 PM | #

Josh,

You missed my point, again. If Quixtar/Alticor were following the (now unwritten) rule that was created before Amway was created, that the Corporation would not change the deal without the (field) board's approval, we would have no lawsuit.

It was the Corporation that was/and is being a Jerk. That attitude seems to come more from Alticor than Quixtar.

Nothing Team had done, was doing, would have done was bad. The only thing they were doing that they shouldn't have, was signing up people for BSM at the time of being sponsored, requiring product to be ordered at time of being sponsored. Ron Simmons was discussing these items with the Corporation, and felt like this could be resolved.

You look at what the Corporation is changing is the UK, and may change elsewhere. The rules state that the Corporation can only change things when it is needed to keep things legal. They are using that loop hole to walk all over the board. It wasn't just Orrin and Chris that resigned. Don & Nancy Wilson, Billy Florence, Randy & Val, Chuck and lots of others.

This is bigger than just Orrin.

The sky is falling. If the others didn't care, they would just have walked. They decided to sue, when the Corporation wouldn't follow it's own rules, and wouldn't let them out from the flaming crash.

Look at UK. If I was and IBO there, and didn't want to be an ABO, I would just not sign the new deal and I would be out. Quixtar has offered no such deal.

The only thing I wished Orrin and the others wouldn't have done was file the Calif. lawsuit. However, if they hadn't I wouldn't have realized that the Board no longer had any power, and I still would not have known about the Name change to Amway, nor the other changes that the Corporation has talked about, but haven't told us the details.

The point is, they have to restore the original deal, (the board) or they will loose everyone.

It isn't just the name. I have dozens of products or containers that say Amway. It the Corporation lied, and continues to do so.

Joshua 1:9 said: September 19, 2007 3:19 AM | #

I Am Spartacus!!

Chuck Lia said: September 20, 2007 10:30 AM | #

One thing that I believe is often missing from this conversation is taking a look at how the field and field leadership also changed its deal with the company in a dramatic fashion. The LOA leaders were the ones that brought the BSM issue so dramatically into play and created a tremendously negative dynamic throughout the business. Everyone understood that there was a real need for tools and the training they provided. But when those tools and the profits therein became the tail that wagged the dog, everything changed, and not for the better.

It quickly became clear that tools were more profitable than the business itself and that it was far easier (and quicker) to promote tools and garner the resultant profits, than it was to build the business. I saw on one of the TEAM blogsites the other day where someone stated that Orrin made $12 million from the tool business and $2 million from the Quixtar business (I cannot verify the truth of that statement, but I did read in on one of the TEAM blogsites). So the business that was to SUPPORT the Quixtar business became in essence the primary business.

That creates a tremendous conflict of interest in terms of loyalty, and more particularly, focus, the outgrowth of which can be seen in the current TEAM debacle. It has also led to multiple issues on the legal front as can be seen in the recent US, UK, and India actions. In the 1970s everyone saw themselves as primarily being in the Amway business, and then secondarily as being part of a LOS. Today everyone sees themselves first as being part of a LOA (TEAM, Network 21, WWDB, etc.), and then perhaps -- and that is a big PERHAPS -- sees themselves as being part of Quixtar. That is a dramatic change in the "deal" and that change came completely from the field.

So I think there is plenty of blame to go around regarding "changing the deal."

Josh said: September 20, 2007 2:49 PM | #

Chuck,

You make a very good point with your last post.(September 20 10:30am)

Your stat with regard to Orrin is always a possibility with any tools business, depending on the size of the organization. However, as you point out, if that is your only incentive to push tools is to make that income, and not to help the new guy then I agree.

2 million a year from Quixtar is nothing schlub at.

Utah,

Again I understand your point of view. However, Orrin and friends knew and know about the non-compete. They helped to write it and they signed off on it years ago. It, therefore, invariably falls on Orrin to inform his team of this change. Help people understand it from the beginning. As well as teach new people about the non-compete as they sign up.

The bottom line is, you can quit if you so choose, wait for 6 months and move on to whatever your heart desires. By the way, do you think all the baloney with Orrin and Q* is going to take less than 6 months?

The DTI forced the hand of Amway in the UK. More importantly, it was directed at IBOs or ABOs misrepresenting this opportunity. Hmmm, seems vaguely familar to me.

Also, Joshua is not me. I didn't write "I am Spartacus."

Piet Strydom said: September 20, 2007 4:43 PM | #

Canadian IBO:

I wrote a detailed post for you, which got lost. Let me try a short one:

TEAM was terminated because:

They tried to hide the fact that the business was Quixtar, instead telling people they were joining TEAM, when they were signing a legal agreement with Quixtar.

They moved people around in the LOS to suit the upline's purposes, numerous people lodged complaints about this to Q over many years.

They falsely informed people that there were minimum purchase requirements, of Quixtar products, and seemingly of the BSM as well.

They informed Q that they were going to start their own MLM.

Quixtar scheduled a meeting for August 9 to again (after years of such meetings) try and devise ways for TEAM to become compliant with the Quixtar rules.

At the meeting Orrin refused to discuss ways to become compliant, he was only interested to discuss ways of getting out of the non-compete clauses of his IBO contract with Quixtar.

The above is a summary of two affidavits in the TEAM lawsuit. One is the Q termination letter. The second is Orrin's statement.

Utah said: September 21, 2007 3:38 PM | #

Piet

I disagree with your summary about Team.

There are 3 eyewitness accounts online that refute most of it. (2 from Simmons, one from Haugen and 2 from Chuck).

I do agree with:

"They falsely informed people that there were minimum purchase requirements, of Quixtar products, and seemingly of the BSM as well."

This was not a problem with groups that had joined Team.

The rest is just spin from the Corporation.

1. Team never hid this was Quixtar. You had to sign the Quixtar business form so what good would that have done.

2. They didn't "stack" without approval of both the person and the sponsor.

3. They did not say they were going to start their own MLM.

4. The meeting was scheduled after Quixtar refused to follow board recommendations. Simmons has stated that Team never refused to solve the purchase / BSM at signup problem.

rdknyvr said: September 23, 2007 12:17 AM | #

Utah, what Piet is outlining is straight from the TEAM submission documents. And if you were reading the posts by "Pirate" over at IBOFightback's site last week (Pirate's writing and rhetorical style is amazingly similar to Ron Simmons), he stated that Team had been planning for this and planning to exit Quixtar for a long time, and that Quixtar knew this. So get beyond the spin you've been told to promote... it's old and your own 'leadership' people aren't even trying to run with it anymore, at least on the blogs. Whoever "Pirate" is, he claims to be in on the core leadership council planning and deliberations so I take him at his word. They planned for a long time to leave and start something else, as in another MLM. They just didn't want to have to start it up from scratch, and thus the attempt to hijack a piece of Quixtar on the way out -- in business terms, "steal" (good Christian men that they are). And the thieves had the gall to turn around and use legal potty mouth language to call Quixtar and "illegal" organization? But at the same time they now admit (Pirate's posts) that they are making adjustments in the Team structure itself to avoid risk to themselves of potential future "pyramid" lawsuits. Don't know whether to laugh or cry, it's so hilarious.

And while on that point, the longer this goes on, the more I find myself in agreement with the original Alticor Blog posting about Orrin and crew "trash talking" and trying to "loot" the company on the way out... although I still think the Alticor Blogger was utterly lacking wisdom in his approach to PR positioning.

Utah said: September 25, 2007 1:48 AM | #

rdknyvr,

No one is asking me to spin - how about you?

You are putting words in their mouths. Neither you nor I know who Pirate is. Ron S. did say there was discussion on one item, the item I mentioned. The other items were from Alticor's attorney's comments, not from Team. Go back to sleep.

Having read enough of your other posts, I don't believe you. Either you don't really know what is going on, or you are spinning...worse than most.

That being said, I have read both of Ron Simmons posts, by Ron Simmons, many of the court documents, Randy Haugen's post and both of Chuck G. posts.

I really don't know Orin and Chris that well.

I have heard Don & Nancy Wilson, Randy and Valerie Haugen for 16 years. I have heard Chris and Orrin for about 1 year. No one said anything bad about Quixtar or Alticor until Alticor decided to make changes without the field. I heard nothing negative prior to Aug. 10th, but reading several comments, many IBO's have wanted some changes for years.

Alticor's attorneys have acted like total fools as have several at the corporation. My idea of bring back the choice of 1999 was mine. Others may or may not have thought of it. It was and is the only way the corporation can end this. I have repeated my suggestions several times at enough places for them to be received. I really want this thing saved.

The likelihood of Quixtar/Amway lasting a few years with the direction they are heading is doubtful. I like the products. I trust my upline diamond. I don't even know if he was forced to resign or not. Alticor has been acting like jerks.

That being said, I don't think Orrin or Chris or the others expected the reaction from the Corporation they got. They figured, in my opinion, that the corporation would initally go with the boards suggestions, or at least avoid this fight. Quixtar forced their hand. Was it a smart move, probably not on either side. That being said, Orin and Chris have shut up. I have not read anything from them directly. I would love to hear Jody Victor's side of things. He isn't in a position to say anything. I would trust him over you any day.

Josh said: September 26, 2007 3:04 PM | #

Utah,

Likewise, I wouldn't trust your analogy that Q/A will only be around for 1 or 2 more years. My guess is Q/A will be around for much longer than that. They have been around for what, 50 years. How much experience do you have to place an opinion on this matter? My bet is that it is not 50 years. Not to mention, you are but one person with an opinion.

Q/A is and has many people dedicated, with significant backgrounds of success, to see this company forward.

I would trust their judgment call over yours any day. Oh and did you notice Don and Randy dropped out of the lawsuit? Hmmmm...interesting indeed!

John said: October 14, 2007 3:46 AM | #

"There is one way to avoid criticism: never do anything, never amount to anything. Never get your head above the crowd so the jealous will notice and attack you. Criticism is a sign that your personality has some force." - April 2007 calendar

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About Beth Dornan

I’ve been writing professionally (published) since I was 14, which means I’ve now logged 30+ years as a writer. I grew up in Northwest Indiana (“the region” to those familiar with the greater Chicago area), went to journalism school at Indiana University and was a reporter before going into PR. Realized I didn’t have the heart or stomach for journalism. I worked at a Grand Rapids PR agency founded by two former Amway Public Relations alums before leaving them to join Amway Public Relations in March 1989. I hopped over to Quixtar shortly after its launch in 1999. I’ve been married since 1992 to my college sweetheart and am Mom to two girls.

adatudes@opportunityzone.com