Michigan Court Rules in Favor of Quixtar in Team Dispute

Friday, August 24, 2007  by Jim Payne
Category: Announcements

A Michigan court has ruled in favor of Quixtar in the company’s legal dispute with former IBOs Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, founders of the Team training organization, plus other IBOs involved in the Team organization.  Kent County Circuit Judge Paul Sullivan on August 24 issued a preliminary injunction against several of Quixtar's former IBOs, preventing them from using the previous line of sponsorship information to sell or promote competing products and from otherwise interfering in the business of Quixtar or its IBOs.  It also orders them not to recruit other IBOs to compete with Quixtar’s business, and not to disparage Quixtar.

The court considered three separate cases involving Quixtar; Woodward, Brady, and Team; and the Independent Business Owners Association International (IBOAI.)

In a related case, the judge ordered Woodward, Brady and other former IBOs to abide by the terms of their confidentiality agreements with the IBOAI, and not to make unauthorized disclosures of the IBOAI’s confidential information.  The IBOs are required to return all confidential documents and data to the IBOAI.

Finally, a third case concerned Quixtar’s right to enforce a ban of promotion or sale of Team-produced training materials by IBOs.  In the opinion of Judge Sullivan, Quixtar has the legal authority to determine Team to be an unauthorized distributor of BSM, to preclude IBOs from further distributing Team materials, and to require IBOs to confirm their intent to comply with Quixtar’s decision regarding Team BSMs or face potential sanctions.  .

Quixtar had received a temporary restraining order from a Kent County Court on August 10 preventing Woodward and Brady from disparaging Quixtar and damaging its reputation, soliciting IBOs for another business opportunity, and requiring them to  return to Quixtar its proprietary and confidential Line of Sponsorship (LOS) data. 

Comments

Ros said:
August 24, 2007 6:05 PM | #

Dear Jim,

Thank you to everyone at Quixtar and the IBOAI for standing with us IBOs defending all our businesses.

Please see the posting today in the IBOAI blog (www.iboblog.org) regarding the "Court Rules in Favor of IBOAI & Quixtar"

Sincerely,

Ros

Trevor said:
August 24, 2007 6:07 PM | #

These are all true facts, although the title is a bit misleading.  Just reading the title might lead people to believe that the original lawsuit filed in California has been settled.  That suit will be initially seen in a courtroom in mid-September.

Regarding the main lawsuit a preliminary injunction was issued.  Definition, "A preliminary injunction, or an interlocutory injunction, is a provisional remedy granted to restrain activity on a temporary basis until the court can make a final decision after trial."

Basically put Woodward et al. must not make any actions regarding the no-compete/no-solicitation rule until the case is able to be heard in a court.

The other two points (confidential information and the discontinuance of Team BSMs) are explained adequately, and really aren't that surprising.  Although I must admit I find it a bit spooky that Alticor is allowed to ask for a re-affirmation with our annual bonuses hanging in the balance.

I'm not trying to sway anybody's opinion with this comment, just trying to make sure everybody understands the facts.

Now we all had to be adults to sign up with Quixtar so for the sake of our image, be it TEAM or Quixtar please keep comments relevant and above the board.  Regardless of where you stand, the "other side" and media will use your juvenile, disparaging, or attacking comments against you and the group that you choose to side with.

Thank you.

Tom said:
August 24, 2007 6:21 PM | #

Jim-

Thank you for keeping everyone informed. A lot of info/statements/opinions have been flying around the last couple of weeks. In particular, some of TEAM & Co.'s leadership/IBOs have been very vocal, sharing their viewpoints and perspective about the current issues on a TEAM exclusive blog. Very open and detailed thoughts, but certainly from their side of things.

I think it would be very beneficial and timely to have some of the reamining (majority) of the IBOAI board and other respected IBO leaders give their PERSONAL views on some the topics:

Why is "stacking" not good - longterm?

What are the pricing issues (if any)?

What are thier thoughts on the Amway/Quixtar transition?

Etc...

I have been blessed to have an upline who is very involved with the transitions and is one of the remaining board members. He has shared his thoughts and I am very confident, excited and at ease with ALL the current issues. I realize some IBOs might be more in the dark, so by having some respected IBO leaders share would be great for everyone.

Maybe the IBO leaders could write you a letter that you could have posted here and other blog sites.

Allan S said:
August 24, 2007 7:03 PM | #

Jim,

Thanks for a post that simply gives the facts without the rhetoric.  While this will unboubtedly be appealed as almost every court decision seems to be is there going to be further attempt to clarify some of the may issue that are being spun in so many different ways while the legal battle unfolds?

While the Team leaders certainly sound like people of integrity I honestly don’t understand all their actions. The fact that Quixtar’s non-compete and other rules didn’t exist years earlier is represented as a reason to file public litigation, ignoring the fact litigation could have been pursued through a long standing agreed upon practice.  Realizing that arbitration results are confidential could you tell us if Team objected to these rule changes when they were implemented two or three years ago?  If so that would certainly add credibility to their representation that this is a matter of integrity and dispel the rumor that this argument is only being used to justify their actions creating their own mulit-level.

While the Team leaders are professing that Quixtar is an illegal pyramid their Platinums are fighting to stay in Quixtar AND stay aligned with Team.  The inconsistency of wanting to stay involved with an illegal pyramid while at the same time remaining aligned with a group that is in public opposition is confusing.  Has anyone at Alticor an explanation that makes sense?

Another blog is reporting on a Team attempt to organize an ordering boycott from Quixtar beginning September 1st.  While recognizing the same inconsistency as above, is it possible the boycott is not occurring in August because upline leaders are still interested in their qualification and bonuses from the alleged illegal pyramid?

Is anyone considering that the reason the Quixtar/Amway names can not be discussed openly, as the Team leaders accurately state, is because of the type of public litigation that they themselves filed in violation of their contract.  This is a 4 page lawsuit followed by 40 pages of valueless legal attack but high value internet reading filed by these men of integrity.  Now those of us that do operate our businesses correctly, including retail sales, pay the price because  these men of integrity want to take what they learned from Amway and Quixtar and start their own business without any restrictions. 

How are those inconsistencies reconciled by men of integrity?

Ron Simmons said:
August 24, 2007 7:20 PM | #

Jim -

Please don't forget that Quixtar has SEVERAL other TRO's against them stating that they CAN NOT suspend or terminate IBOs based on their involvement with Team at this time.  I am fine with you stating Judge Sullivan's ruling but please be fair and state the whole truth.  For those of us that are IBOs and have not been terminated we deserve the entire picture.

Shaun carter said:
August 24, 2007 7:23 PM | #

This will surely have a significant negative impact on the class action lawsuit TEAM filed in California. The judge here in Michigan has essentially ruled the TEAM business shut down - and any other training organization affiliated with Quixtar could be closed at any time.

Megan Jones said:
August 24, 2007 9:42 PM | #

I have read Ada-tudes and Alticor blogs with interest. But I am curious why no-one has questioned the timing of the termination of Mr. Brady and Mr. Woodward. Their termination was only after the announcement to the IBOAI Board regarding the Business Transformation and after the subsequent meeting letting Mr Payne and others know that they would not like to continue being affiliated with Quixtar. The timing seems suspiciously odd to me. All of the Alticor & Quixtar press releases and blogs seem to focus on TEAM's business building practices as the only reason for their termination. This is a puzzle that is missing pieces. Mr Payne would you care to help solve the puzzle?

Tex said:
August 24, 2007 10:21 PM | #

What does this mean for all the other TRO's that were issued in favor of the IBO's?

Lynn Louis said:
August 24, 2007 10:21 PM | #

Are you going to announce the other legal action taken against Quixtar?

Editor's Note: We didn't announce, but they are referenced in the release issued today. 

SPARTAN said:
August 24, 2007 11:21 PM | #

Isn't it said they missed the federal hearing in Texas??  Tears are rolling down my cheeks..  :(

It is sad that Quixtar is ruining their reputation.  They are using just enough rope to hang themselves.

KS in NC said:
August 25, 2007 1:07 AM | #

So here is the straight skinny-I am a former Amway distributor in the 90's I went 4000-I built it hard with my wife- I allowed Bill Britt to mentor me from a distance and I consumed thousands of dollars of tapes.  I am highly qualified to say what I am going to say!  Team is better--I am in Team--the leaders care if you will ...as corny as it sounds and I know what you are going to say--but they are benefitting etc.  Britt and his people were the largest and you can tell by that "super board" that is over the IBOAI-most have ties to Bill Britt!  He would relate to Woodward and Brady-engineering minds.

Several states and multipe counties all siding for a restrining order in favor of Team-the only place quixtar won is at Alticors home and Amways home.. Grand Rapids!  You need to stop right away and let us go!!!! The negative will be too much for the quixtar IBO to overcome if the loser goons get it out in loser-blogville!

3 things 1. Price  2. noname change to Amway not 18 months not ever!!!   3. Put the IBOIA back to a meaningful partner and reinstall Brady, Woodward and Goetschel and the others and try to learn what they KNOW--DO NOT FIGHT THE TREND and Make history for being one of the first corporations who are listening to the growers who are the sowers of the seed!  There is no face to save --let's get it resolved right now for all's sake!

Brad Obert said:
August 25, 2007 2:09 AM | #

Interesting that every time there is news from the corp, it is obviously one sided and excludes absolutely any mention of the mountain of activity happening outside of that single courthouse.  Reading this would make things appear completely over and settled.  I have to laugh.  And to think for 11 years now I have literally defended this company without question.

Jefe said:
August 25, 2007 5:21 AM | #

Ron,

Thank you for calling out the spin.

While Kent county was indeed a victory for Quixtar, the ruling in Texas was equally pro-team.

It amazes me what can happen when there are two sides to this story, but only one has it's microphone on.

Orrin is silent and Jim won't post it so here you go...

In the United States District Court for the Easter District of Texas, U.S. magistrate judge Don D. Bush entered a temporary restraining order stating in part that                 �

". . . defendant, Quixtar, and defendant's respective officers, managers, trustees, agents, servants, employees, attorneys, confederates, and all other persons in active concert or participation with them, are hereby restrained and enjoined immediately from, directly or indirectly: �

1.       Interfering with Plaintiff's Team business support system;

2.       Sending verbal, written, or electronic communications to business associates and upline or down-line business partners of Plaintiff's related to violations of the rules of conduct, use of Team materials and attendance at Team meetings and conferences, and threats to suspend or terminate any Quixtar distributor's business based on Team materials;

3.       Terminating or threatening to terminate the distributorships or businesses of Plaintiff's and other IBOs who use Team materials forwarded by Plaintiffs;

4.       Disparaging the Team approach;

5.       Taking any adverse action against Plaintiffs pending disposition of this order;

6.       Refusing to pay any bonus to Plaintiffs that may be due in the ordinary course of business;

7.       Interfering with or prohibiting, in any way, the operation of the Team as a business support system for Plaintiffs or taking any action to shut down or interfere with the Team's business" �

drgn said:
August 25, 2007 7:13 AM | #

Though I believe that the expelled TEAM members have character and are great leaders, the very fact that they allege that Q/A is a pyramid after they have been expelled/after they resigned (either way) makes me think about their character. If they believed it was a pyramid, ethics and morals demand that they should have resigned long time ago (including Billy who was there for 25 years ? ).

Congrats A/Q.  Win in CA and make it a Home run. :-)

Craig Eddy said:
August 25, 2007 7:49 AM | #

Thank you Alticor and Quixtar for standing up against of bunch of "thugs" who have a vested interest in destroying our businesses.

BRAVE HEART said:
August 25, 2007 11:28 AM | #

IT IS VERY SAD TO SEE THAT A BUSINESS THAT SAYS IT SUPPORTS IT'S IBO'S, HAS TO TO SEND OUT TRASH TO THE GROUP TO BASH TEAM, SENDING EMAILS TO EVERYONE TO GET EVERYONE CONFUSED, YET I DON'T REMEMBER ONE SINGLE EMAIL ASKING FOR A SO-CALLED OPINION ON WHETHER IT'S A GOOD IDEA FROM THE IBO'S TO GO AHEAD AND CALL OUR BUSINESS AMWAY AGAIN WHAT UNINFORMED NON-IBO DECIDED  THIS  ? I KNOW THE TEAM CD'S CHANGED OUR LIVES AND OUR KIDS IT'S  MADE US BETTER PARENTS AND BETTER PEOPLE, I KNOW THAT NO ONE HAS EVER TOLD ME THAT THE CD WASN'T WORTH IT ,

BUT THE FIRST THING PEOPLE DO ASK IS "WHY ARE THE PRODUCT   PRICES SO HIGH ? HUMM ...I WOULD RATHER HAVE   SOMEONE BUY    CD OF THE WEEK AND NO PRODUCTS,, PRODUCTS YOU CAN GET ANYWHERE,, GROWTH IN SELF IS PRICELESS.. I THINK A GREAT BOOK FOR THAT PERSON WHO IS CLUELESS IN MAKING DECISIONS FOR THE IBO'S FUTURE NEEDS TO READ THE BOOK CALLED "POSITIVE IMPACT" BY GREGORY REID...SOMEWHERE FROM THE VAN ANDEL  AND THE DEVOS FAMILY ,,SOMETHING WAS LOST..I'S CALLED FEELINGS ...

Tex said:
August 25, 2007 12:08 PM | #

I posted this message on the IBOAI Board forum, and they requested I ask Quixtar for the answer. I have done that in previous posts on at least one of the corporate blogs, with no response so far.

Here are parts of each of the referenced Quixtar press releases, with some minor format changes for clarity:

August 10th - Quixtar was working with Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, founders of the Team training organization, to correct issues related to:

1. Team’s teaching of inappropriate business-building tactics,

2. improper positioning of the opportunity, and

3. use of unauthorized support materials.

Undated - After working with Team training organization founders, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, on issues related to teaching by the organization on:

1. positioning of the business (same as #2 above, far too general to be of any use),

2. the practice of “stacking,” or inappropriate depth-building (similar to #1 above, and assumed to be the same issue, and totally inadequate details about what was being done to make their practices "inappropriate"),

3. the use of unauthorized business support materials (same as issue #3 above, again need more details, are we talking about prospect materials, IBO materials, content of materials, etc.?),

4. because they told company executives that they intend to start soliciting IBOs to join their new competing MLM business, the company has terminated Woodward and Brady’s Quixtar businesses (Now this new one is a clear violation of the rules and enough on its own to cause termination), and

5. solicited others to become part of their training organization despite warnings to discontinue such practices (this is also clearly against the rules and adequate as a single infraction adequate grounds for termination. Others can approach you, you can't approach others. In practice, I have tried to get information from two tool companies, "International Connections" (Brian Hays) and "N21" (Jim Dornan). Both companies rejected my approach. Therefore, the net result of these rules is you stay with your upline's system until they choose to do something different. In other words, the typical IBO has no choice. The new Quixtar University (future), IBONetwork (future), and iteamusa (current)sites will offer some choice, which is a good thing).    

Moreover, they, together with other Team, Legacy and Team 5K IBOs, have filed a class action lawsuit in Federal Court against Quixtar (this is probably considered breaking the rules, as they are required to go through arbitration. However, at least 2 of the individuals, Don Wilson and Randy Haugen, know that is like being railroaded, like they themselves let happen to their downline Diamond Bruce Anderson a couple of years ago. On this issue I think they have a good point. The Quixtar arbitration process has been described by two Federal judges to be "unconscionable" (that means really bad), and there hasn't been a court proceeding I am aware of that makes the process acceptable, only that minor changes were made to make the appearance of the process look more fair.)

The bottom line is we don't know nearly enough on issues 1, 2, and 3 specifically what was done improperly in order to not repeat the mistakes. How you can pawn this off to Quixtar is beyond me. Isn't the IBOAI Board supposed to represent the IBO's and not just pass us off to the corp for answers? How can you run your tool companies properly if you don't know the specifics of what went wrong with TEAM? I haven't decided if the IBOAI Board is incompetent or in bed with the corp, but they need to be disbanded or replaced with real leaders.

I, and all IBO's, should have much more informtion to help us with these issues than press releases that have no details. I am also posting this on Adatudes, let's see who will stand up and tell the truth.

Tex said:
August 25, 2007 12:34 PM | #

Here's a press release with the 10 TRO's being discussed.  A TRO is not a decision. It temporarily restrains adverse action until more facts are known. Kind of like holding back your snarling Rottweiler when an intruder enters your home and you demand "who is it?" prior to turning the dog loose.

August 24, 2007 11:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time

Distributors Announce Wins in 10 Temporary Restraining Orders Against Quixtar Filed Across the Country

Today’s Limited Court Rulings in Quixtar’s Hometown Do Not Affect Strength and Merit of Original California Federal Lawsuit Filed by 15 Former Distributors Represented by Shughart, Thomson & Kilroy

LOS ANGELES--(BUSINESS WIRE)--The group of top ex-Quixtar, Inc. distributors involved in litigation with the company today reemphasized their confidence in the strength of their initial lawsuit against Quixtar by citing the distributors’ wins against the company in a flurry of temporary restraining orders (TRO) filed in the United States.

Today’s rulings, which occurred in the company’s backyard of Grand Rapids, are inconsistent with the 10 TROs that have been granted to date against Quixtar. Rulings on four additional TROs are still pending.

“We are confident that we will continue to prevail in the lawsuits against Quixtar,” stated D.J. Poyfair, of Denver-based Shughart, Thomson & Kilroy, who is representing former distributors in the litigation. “Today’s decisions in Grand Rapids do not change the allegations in the initial complaint that Quixtar is operating as an illegal pyramid scheme. The case will move forward – as intended from the beginning – to allow IBOs to participate in legal business opportunities.

“These former IBOs are acting as whistleblowers for Quixtar’s alleged illegal business practices, and the court battles are far from over.”

The initial complaint against Quixtar was filed on August 9 in federal district court, central district of California, western division. Hearings are set to begin on September 12.

About Woodward et al. v. Quixtar, Inc.

On August 9, 2007, a group including eight of the largest Quixtar distributors filed a lawsuit seeking to enjoin Quixtar from enforcing its distributor contracts, including the non-competition and non-solicitation provisions. The plaintiffs allege that the company knowingly operates as a pyramid scheme and prevents its distributors from leaving the organization through the aforementioned provisions. On August 10, 2007, the group sought a preliminary and permanent injunction restraining Quixtar from enforcing or attempting to enforce the non-competition and non-solicitation provisions. More information regarding Woodward v. Quixtar, including relevant court documents, is available at www.FreeTheIBO.com.

pvbvguy said:
August 25, 2007 1:06 PM | #

To KS in NC,

I'm confused by your post.  Bill Britt mentored you at a distance and now you say team is better; they care.  I am not in the Britt LOS but I would imagine he is extremely busy.  I would also guess your team mentoring was done by having live contact with a real person.  I have to believe that if that person was helping you and knew something about you and the team system; that would be superior to being mentored at a distance by anyone.  Just getting a guy like Britt on the phone had to be hard.

It's obvious that you are emotional about this and I would be too if the system I was a part of had numerous lawsuits against Quixtar around the country.  In your second paragraph you ask for the company to let you go and in the third paragraph you ask to have your leadership reinstated on the board?

The southern California lawsuit that your leadership has filed is not just about your team getting their freedom.  These men of "integrity and character" took priviledged information and are trying to use it to not just destroy this company.  They are trying to destroy this business for every IBO.  

I know we all have a tendency to think about ourselves and our situation.  However, think about how the team's actions make IBO's in other lines of sponsorship feel.  

I for one am extremely sorry this happened for ALL IBO's.  I will never believe that this could not have been negotiated and some type of compromise reached.  It's too bad it has come to this.  The only result is that innocent people will be hurt by this and nobody will be any the better for it

rdknyvr said:
August 25, 2007 1:36 PM | #

Ron, Brad, Spartan, Jefe, etc, etc, you need to figure out the difference between a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) and a Preliminary Injunction. Once that is clear in your minds, if you can accept it, you'll understand exactly where you stand.

Guys, you wanted to start your own MLM -- no problem there as long as you follow the due process in place to do that -- and you as much as signalled that to Alticor at least as far back as June when some of the Transformation processes were announced by Doug DeVos and Steve Van Andel (June 14). And if you read Ron Simmons post regarding what was proposed to Alticor/Quixtar in Team's 'negotiating-our-departure-meeting' on Aug. 9, it reads like nothing more than an ultimatum/demand to be released from standard, legal, contractually binding, short term non-competes, and it's no wonder Alticor called your bluff on behalf of and to protect the businesses of all the vast majority of us who see the dynamic growth and business stability and security the Transformation process is bringing.

JIM PAYNE, thank you again for your measured and balanced way of stating the facts, and for your ability to keep a strong focus on what really matters -- moving Quixtar forward, including the excellent hire of Steve Lieberman to take Quixtar on to the next level of retail-competitive success.

MP Zildjian said:
August 25, 2007 5:51 PM | #

Team,

Galatians 6:9

God.

Ron Simmons said:
August 25, 2007 8:21 PM | #

rdknyvr -

Hey dude or dudette - go back and read Quixtar's announcements about the TRO's they intially got against Orrin et al and tell me how you think they positioned those TROs.

A TRO is a court order and has the full extent of law until it is either removed or turned into an injunction, either temporary or permanent.

We felt that we should announce these Quixtar defeats in the same manner they initially announced the TROs against Woodward et al because if we did not we feared that we might be breaking their Rules of Conduct! (tongue firmly planted in cheek!!)

There were no demands in the August 9th meeting by Haugen, Woodward, Brady or their representatives.  Only a request to negotiate the ability to get off the new Amway train.  After all I was there and if the company has a "communication scanning" or recording system in that conference room then I am sure it would verify all of my statements.

There is no injunction against any IBOs other than Chris and Orrin and it is just to obey the rules until a court decides on the validity of the contract.  I have not seen any evidence where they have violated anything - do you have some facts?  If so you should publish them - please.

Oh, yea - use your name, the fake names drive me crazy.

KS in NC said:
August 25, 2007 11:21 PM | #

Read crazyfunwildworld blog!There are several true and factual accounts of all of the events over a timeline--I am telling you that I was going to drop out for six months and I did in Dec 2006 and get back in under an honorable husband and father in Britts line-but right before I called, I saw the Team  approach of helping new people by working to help them sponsor people-building depth and giving them faith and belief.  I am not emotional & Britt did not even know me but nobody was active thru my emerald to him-at least ten deep.  (It was thru the functions and the tapes)

Woodward and his leaders are squeaky clean and are praised on Greg Duncans' and many other nonaffiliated with Team IBO sites.  These men were well thought of in the IBO world. I checked them out thoroughly for me to take such a risk and leave Britt for good! Even Quixtar praised the team leaders constantly allowing Orrin Woodward to be keynote speader a few years ago at the major Quixtar function!

The issues that Davis and many in Britts original lines (before the scandals and betrayals)cannot deny have been a problem for more than a decade #1 price on basic commodities #2 the name Amway due to unethical prctices of IBO's and soap door to door--3 IBOIA not having any power unless in line with company execs and owners

4. more money on the way up instead of just at the top--new businesses should be able to succeed easier in the age of the internet!!The cat is out of the bag-are you going to stand in the gap as Bill Britt use to say or roll over and wet on yourselves! Is it worth it to save this type of business for the next generation of IBO's instead of the international model for the cofounder's family.  Thanks Rich and Jay but like in corp america in climbing the ladder to success your children moved the building!!Come on Bill Britt speak up you were my idol for 15 years and taught me much about life !  I became a better man,teacher football coach and father because of your teachings that were in line with the Word!

KS in NC said:
August 25, 2007 11:24 PM | #

PS- on another note since Winters' name came up!!!A real good friend of mine got turned off because some of Winter's group in the 90s was teaching to blitz her list (and further gave amway a bad name) even if she was not on board--(She would never get in due to their unethical business skills.

In Amway,as I have said, I was almost direct, seven legs at a function-six hours away with good overall width but not enough depth- 3 times going 1500 in the 90's. 100 people in at one given time but not enough incentive for my stand alone legs.  Depth or introducing success-and helping secure the leg-I had three couples at my first meeting one got in immediately and one of the others met that  couple at my meeting and was OK going in under them! The third couple was the most excited and had been super successful in two businesses but the next day the husband went to one of the "IS IT AMWAY websites and the wife sent the lit pack back to my house with her husband in the drop-kick position and she has not spoke to me in the  month since I showed it to her.

KS in NC said:
August 26, 2007 2:09 PM | #

And all will reap indeed what we sow--I would love to smooth it over for you folks that side with quixtar-because I wanted it your way with Quixtar at the helm looking out for the new and growing IBO. Since the 90's our prices have not competed with our core commodities, make up, and vitamins.  Yes, I know ours are superior. Getting the partner stores to take notice-because we have tremendous numbers etc..but when we get just a crumb from each purchase and when our new guy goes to the site and does not see any noticable savings.  Woodward and Brady and a score of leaders (including Most IBO groups) did not like it and were told for at least the past two years they were going to get 20 products etc.  In our second night packet for new people two diamonds in 2007 talk several times on each CD about Quixtar as our Commerce and Content and all hoped that Q would do the right thing.  And then the Amway Bomb was also dropped (in June I Think).  You want to make Q look good but they have dropped the ball since 9 - 01- 99 where they shoud have been the Walmart online with better quality, where people everywhere can shop and where nobodies can be somebodies!!!! Why you say---"where there is no vision people perish"!  *Bill Britt

CONCERNED IBO said:
August 26, 2007 5:05 PM | #

All of this back and forth!  What are the real concerns underlying both sides of these issues?  Mr Payne, you may be a great executive - but not good enough to have ever walked in the shoes of the little guy out here in the trenches!   The same goes for the lawyers the corporation is using.  

Next thing,  regarding prices, for those of you complaining about prices - most of the complaints are truly unfounded as the core line is of a higher quality than what you will find in K-mart,  Wal-mart, & Target.  Yes, other items could be less costly based on volume buying.  Maybe the buyers need more training on negotiating prices for those items that are carried in the catalogs and not made by the companies under Alticor.  For those of you who say you can't sell, get some training from those that can - this is a sales based business of products.  The corporattion  provides some excellent sales tools for selling of specific products.  Also, buy some books on selling and marketing techniques.  

That being said, I believe the corporation should not be involved in the training tools/seminars/meetings except for content review and to ensure they meet the current Quixtar guidelines.  I strongly believe the TEAM system is aimed at self-improvement and leadership training; something the Alticor family of companies should not be providing.

As an IBO that does not receive leadership bonuses, but has been involved since 1999, and is/has received a great deal of support and help towards self-improvement, plus mentoring from my upline Emerald; I am grateful toward by the tools and association used by Dexter's Internet Services company and now through our affliation with TEAM.

The prices for CDs could be reduced, but where else can you go to a seminar for so little money to get inspiration and teaching.  Tom Hopkins, S. Covey, John Maxwell,  etc. all charge upwards of $450 for a 3 hour session at which they also have books and CDs available.  Come to think of it a weekend leadership is still cheaper even if my wife comes with me than the two of us attending  one of aforementioned speakers' presentations.

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT THE IBOs WHO ARE NOT PLATINUM OR ABOVE ARE BEING IGNORED BY THE CORPORATE LEADERSHIP AND BY THEIR OWN PLATINUMS AND ABOVE.   WE HAVE OUR OPINIONS WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN SOLICITED OR CONSIDERED!!!  I REALLY DON'T BELIEVE THE IBOAI PROVIDES ADEQUATE REPRESENTATION OF US EITHER.  

Quixkicked said:
August 26, 2007 10:20 PM | #

If Quixtar couldn't win in a court house 1 block from the Amway Grand hotel in its home town with a Republican judge (former republican party executive committee) then they should fold as a company! Of course they won their injunctions in Grand Rapids! However, that judgement is mute outside of Kent County! Do the research...judges all across the country feel there is enough impropriety questions to issue restraining orders.....Its business as usual for the Team!

peter said:
August 26, 2007 11:04 PM | #

First of all, whoever calls Amway a pyramid has a tainted view on what MLM is.

When you just say that it is a 'pyramid' you are closing your mind.

There isn't any proper definition of what a 'pyramid' entails, but most people associate it with a scheme.

The age old hated crime that someone is making money off of you is that scheme.

And if you a problem with people making money off of other people, then we might as well all be hermits!

In the case of MLM, everything is connected to your performance.

If you are not successful, then you have no one to blame but yourself.

And I don't no to many men or women who are willing to do that-blame themselves.

Instead they blame the system. They blame the products. They blame the company. They blame their upline.

Although, there are thousands of others that succeed with the same system, products, company, and associations that they were given.

I my view of things, I don't make money off of people I make money with people.

peter said:
August 26, 2007 11:11 PM | #

Tex,

Here's a case where Amway is cutting down on tool profits where is your praise?

Or are you just a critic? Because let me tell you no one has ever mounted a statue in memory of a critic.

No one has ever mounted a statue for someone that never did anything but find something wrong with everything.

Sitting in the stands ain't the same as playing in the game.

jthompson said:
August 26, 2007 11:42 PM | #

the above post of Gal 6:9 does not apply when you are not doing "good".

rdknyvr said:
August 27, 2007 3:27 AM | #

Ron Simmons, sorry to have touched a tender spot... I have no way of knowing what words were said at those meetings, only reading the words YOU wrote in your own posts. In my day job I have done and do enough negotiating, and have written my share of contracts (though not a lawyer) and I know an ultimatim when I see it even if it is cloaked as a 'negotiating request'. You fail on that score. And I must say that I had a tremendous amount of respect for Orrin up until the moment I read through the sophistry in the Complaint you filed, not to mention your neglecting to confirm with Fred Harteis about including his name!!!

As to how the Alticor Blog positioned their initial TRO wins and other bone-headed commentaries about the otherwise justifiable terminations, if you've been reading my other posts you will know that I've been harsh in 'razor stropping' them for their profoundly offensive head-between-their-cheeks approach to PR, on the Alticor side. No excuses for them either.

Finally, I use a nickname for personal reasons unrelated to this business. And it's "dude," in case you're wondering (you would know this too if you'd been reading these blogs before this past month).

Tex said:
August 27, 2007 10:21 AM | #

Ron Simmons,

The case has progressed far beyond the initial TRO's, there is a binding set of decisions against TEAM. A TRO expires, usually within a short time frame, such as 7-14 days.

It makes little difference whether what you requested was a demand or a request. You were told you were breaking the rules, said you didn't want to follow the rules, then wanted to be exempted from some of the rules. You were properly shown the door.

I have asked for the evidence for the rule breaking as well. We have far too little information to ensure we are following the rules.

If you want to use real names instead of "fake" names, why don't you take this message to the freetheibo blog? After all, on this blog differing opinions are posted, and freetheibo "bans" anyone who doesn't walk lock step with the "character and integrity" Hitleresque mantra.

While you're at it, have Orrin post how much is made on the tools. He has nothing to lose, he's no longer an IBO.

KS in NC,

If Orrin is so "squeaking clean" in the eyes of the other IBO groups, perhaps you should reconsider how "squeaky clean" these other groups are as well.

I got news for you, 1,500 PV isn't close to 7500, even if you have 1,000 IBO's registered.  As I'm sure you know, if those IBO's don't move volume, they are probably more of a drag than a help.

CONCERNED IBO,  

It's not the retail price of the tools that should be compared, it's the profit to the upline. This is even more true if they aren't honest about how much is made. Those other groups have expenses in terms of advertising, staffing, etc. Also, they don't have a constant stream of tools going to the same people over and over, return tool customers are very lucrative. Captive return tool customers are even more lucrative. Just ask your upline.

Quixkicked,

Grow up. If the local judge didn't properly apply the law, he will be (and should be) crucified by the Democrats, led by the attack dogs of the Governor's office.

peter,

Which case are you talking about? An entire tool system was shut down, not "reduced tool prices". Much of the information in the tools was good, I am not in favor of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Please explain yourself.

jthompson,

Agreed. I said what you said in a bit stronger terms, it hasn't been posted, yet (right, moderator?).  

Beryl Nichols said:
August 27, 2007 11:33 AM | #

Beware!!!!  I just saw a post of a scripture by God!

Now you have really done it!  See what all you lawyer wanna be's have done!  Shame on you!  It's over now!

LOL!!

Kjteam said:
August 27, 2007 3:05 PM | #

To Quixtar Blog:  Michigan Court Rules in Favor of Quixtar in Team Dispute

            No Am-ification without representation.  

yo etx and terry nichols, oh, I’m sorry I meant beryl.  you liberals should find another cause.  this is not your business or your cause.  We the lower ibo's are suppose to trust the Corporate "Q/A", and what did they do, sneak in a clause in which I didn't understand fully, and now you say I and others broke rules.   Not that I would have been able to do anything about it, since Orrin and co. couldn't and look at the amount of juice he has.  I think quixtar broke the rule of trust by placing something into the rules without full explanation, and a hidden agenda behind it,  and without a chance to say no.  There is no checks and Balance with this organization. The iboa board is a total joke.  Full of old men who have lost the realization about what is really going on in the field.  Right now, as Chuck G. said, the iboa board is spinning the price of products as competitive and that there is no problem.  You probably never heard this before, but "it's the economy stupid"  you know that  favorite mantra of the Liberal media.  

I want you all to know that I know how much I pay for BSMs.  I don't need any liberal "heroes"  telling me what I can or cannot buy.  Everyone that get's on my team is an adult and should be responsible for themselves.  As far as Mr. Simmons is concerned, he has established who he is and his credibility.  You complain about the freetheibo Blog, but at least there your post was up the minute you hit "enter", unlike here, where it takes days to get the post up.  You even compared team to Naziism, and "q" holds the economic gun to our head, not team.  You are liberal bloggers who share each others "talking points" and just go back and forth with them.

And to the moderator:  I guess now it's ok to make fun of posts that contain scripture in them.  I find that offensive, but I guess as long as it is in your favor.  Your ok with it.  

Normally I won't post here, except that you bitter people cannot go unchallenged in what you say.  especially when the info you put out is full of half truths and uninformed spin.  I will be posting this over in the freethibo blog also, as I know it will get posted there.  

Tex said:
August 27, 2007 3:43 PM | #

Beryl,

I think He's getting a kick out of this, quite entertaining.

He's probably thinking "They STILL don't get it, and yet they claim to be Christians."

jthompson said:
August 27, 2007 3:45 PM | #

a Temporary Restraining Order is not anything like a trial and decision by a judge.  a TRO is not a small victory and does not add any credibility to TEAM's story.  TEAM forum reports TRO's but not decisions from Judges in Court.

TEAM - good peristence!  If at first you dont' success sue sue again!  

This is great - now we can watch you lose over and over again!

jthompson said:
August 27, 2007 4:01 PM | #

Tom said:

August 24, 2007 6:21 PM | #

i read a nice note to Jim from Tom here.  I agree - it would be great to have a personal letter from some of the iboai board members (with their individual name on it) to cover some of the details that summarize how they have been feeling about all the issues with TEAM and Amway Business Transformation.

KNP said:
August 27, 2007 6:27 PM | #

Hey Tex, read these quotes from none other than the Amway co-founder himself and let me know what part of Free Enterprise you don't agree with.  Assuming you agree with these, you should agree with Team's position.  All we're after is what Rich himself stated.....

“Very simply put, free enterprise happens when freedom of people is recognized as an inherent right stemming from the Creator, and that freedom is safeguarded(as ours is) in the structure of government organization. In the free enterprise system, the manufacturer or businessman owns his own tools, risks his own money, sets his own prices, makes his own decisions, and makes or loses money depending on how well he provides the public with a product or service which it wants at a price it is willing to pay.

Richard M Devos from his book Believe Pages,79

“Free enterprise is really simple. It is a system in which the individual has the right to conduct his business in whatever way he chooses, and keep the benefits of his work.” Richard M Devos from his book Believe page 91

On the topic of competition:

Quoting Adam Smith “Smith argued that the invisible hand is a powerful force in ensuring that society gets the products it wants at a price it’s willing to pay”

“Be glade for competition. It makes the system work”

READ THIS ONE CLOSELY!!!!!

“Understand and respect each individuals conflict between self-interest and conscience. Examine and re-examine your own heart and your own business practices to keep both sides in balance”

Richard M Devos from his book Compassionate Capitalism page 109, 118 and 119

Tom Haught said:
August 27, 2007 7:10 PM | #

Its amazing to me with all this whining about pricing. Do we or don't we have some of the best products out there. Some groups pride themselves as" not selling products, just people development." WELL-GET OVER IT!  We SELL products, that's where the money comes from in ANY business, not just ours.Any idiot can give away stuff at a cheap price.We're in this to make money so be professional and BE salespeople or go join Avon.They have cheap stuff, not good products.

MP Zildjian said:
August 27, 2007 7:29 PM | #

Jthompson..

Surface knowledge can be deceiving.  

1Peter 2:15 (NIV)

SPARTAN 4LIFE said:
August 27, 2007 8:18 PM | #

Peter - Well said!

I wish I had read your quote earlier.  I posted the same thing about Tex in another blog

Jerandi said:
August 27, 2007 10:46 PM | #

To Tom. First of all I was more than happy to keep your point of view on products until I found out that the IBO price in manufactures cost times 3. The corportation calls this the Jay rule. Dexter Yager himself has told the Diamonds and above the products cost more than the market can bear. However as long as they make enough off of tools and the corporation never goes after them then defend quality over price everyday. Sorry but myself and my upline have alway made twice to three times as much on tools as the ever could on the products. I know you guys don't belive that but it is how Dexter kept people in after the went platinum in the first place otherwise they would have never stayed. To this day this is Amways dirty little secret and I am sorry but without tools not Britt not Yager none of them would stay. The money is just not there. Go look at what Andy Andrews went though when the threw him out on utube. Watch that and then realize this can happen to any group at any time over any thing. Rons Simmons God be with you and the rest of the TEAM.

Tom Morris said:
August 28, 2007 7:57 AM | #

You can watch the whole thing play out in a more balanced format at: http://crazyfunwildworld.blogspot.com/

It lists all official releases by Team and Quixtar, on the order they were released, as well as some commentary.

kjteam said:
August 28, 2007 11:27 AM | #

To everyone that wants to know the markup on tools.  I made some telephone calls here's the results:

Craftsman tools:  Sorry,  would not give me the markup on tools,  better blog them.

Snap-on tools:  Sorry,  would not give me the markup on tools.

Milwaukee tools:  Sorry, would not give me the markup on tools, better blog them too.

Not one tool outlet I called would give me the markup on tools.  

ALERT, ALERT:  Alert all the contractors and home owners they the above companies are making a profit when you buy tools from these companies.  

Contractors beware:  Since this affects your business directly, you should stop using your business support tools.  I'm sure you can find something in place of the hammer, or adjustable wrench.  After all you already know how to build your business.  

sounds pretty stupid doesn't it,  and so are your questions about the markup of tools.  

Tex said:
August 28, 2007 3:29 PM | #

Kjteam,

Did you read the original post? It appears Quixtar has had a problem with Orrin and Co. for YEARS, not some new rule they snuck in and confused matters.

I already posted something on another blog, so I won't repeat them here. Bottom line, these are very general statements, and if you want to know Rich's thoughts on tool profits, go listen to or read the "Directly Speaking" recordings that discuss this specific topic.

Tom H,

Good point, but that's the problem. So much money, time and effort is being directed towards the tools by the upline, there isn't enough time left over to talk about selling, much less go out and actually do it.

MP Zildjian,

Isolated scripture verses can be deceiving. Did you know there is a Biblical instruction to kill your own children if they talk back to you?

SPARTAN 4LIFE,

Yes, and I slammed you over there as well.

Jerandi,

You don't believe the average income figures Quixtar publishes for various pin levels?

kjteam,

Did you also ask any of them if they consider themselves your business partners or teammates?

Did they ever misrepresent themselves, by indicating their lifestyle came from one place, and it really came from a different one?

So I agree, your "examples" do sound pretty stupid.

dan albaugh said:
August 28, 2007 4:31 PM | #

it is great that the corp has started to put some bite in the rules   hand slapping has gone on to long  so while we are in the process of cleaning up the biz  why don't you take a long look at the sale of products 9under market value) on ebay  the name and products are copyrighted and the sale of such violates the rules of both ebay and quixtar  most of our customers are internet savy and will find what i am trying to sell cheaper on ebay and with no sales tax  it needs to be addressed and should be an easy fix  thanks for your time

MP Zildjian said:
August 28, 2007 6:48 PM | #

Thanks Tex,

Your response to my post does in fact confirm my original message and shows US ALL so much about YOU.

Again.. "Surface knowledge can be deceiving"

Case Closed.

Dale said:
August 28, 2007 8:14 PM | #

I think all this talk is going to really affect the growth of this company, becasue people don't want to join that is unstable. I believe a lot of Team is going to quit and move onto something, a far as the cd's and books, You can a lot of motivation from Chapters!! and mentors, You don't need team cd's to dream of big things!! I've always read to diversify!!

RH said:
August 29, 2007 1:50 AM | #

Since this post is about the subject of the MI case I felt this information was appropriate to update.

[Editor's Note:  See Alticor Media Blog post. Team news release shared in full deleted here, but shared via link from Alticor blog.]

 

Jeffrey said:
August 29, 2007 2:06 AM | #

Upline tools in this business are subjective. You do not need a CD of the week, and a major function every 90 days to build this business.

On the other hand, you do need product literature, samples, and products for demonstration to get a new customer or to further develop a current one. Yes, you may even need cost-per-use comparisons. Most of product tools are available on the site, some have a cost associated with them; some, like the product fliers, do not. I use the product fliers A LOT. I also give away a lot of samples. These are the types of things that produce tangible results.

Let's take two scenarios: I have two new IBOs make a list of 100 names. One IBO I will help get 30 customers that buy $45 during his first month. I also emphasize loyalty to his own business and stressing 50 PV the first month. (100 PV would come later.) The other IBO I help start two legs but do not emphasize retail and say they need to buy some products for personal use and I drive both of this IBOs legs 10 deep. Let's say that each IBO does 20 PV ($60 personal use).

If you want to draw it out yourself (rather than me explain it) using a 1:3 PV/BV ratio, IBO #1 makes about $333 that first month minus his $150 for personal use, he would net around $183.  IBO #2 would have no retail to speak of (so to get his bonus he would have to jimmy the CVR, which is not ethical) and after bonus pay out, would make about $40, minus his $18 for his personal use of $60, bring it down to $22. Of course, all his single legged IBOs would be making a lot less; actually with any personal use, they'd be in the hole. Which IBO do you think will last longer in the business? I'll go with #1.

kjteam said:
August 29, 2007 8:13 AM | #

"and if you want to know Rich's thoughts on tool profits, go listen to or read the "Directly Speaking" recordings that discuss this specific topic."

I am no more interested in reading or listening to Rich's thoughts on tool profits then I am listening to Stalin's thoughts on communissium.

I am only on this blog to make sure your half truth statements do not go unchallenged.

Tex said:
August 29, 2007 11:17 AM | #

dan,

You bring up a good point, but many of the products being sold are by former IBO's, and therefore these products are allowed to sold by these folks. They are generally just trying to reduce their losses. It would be difficult to prove a seller is an IBO, and they can also "launder" the products through another ebay user ID, so this is not an easy problem to fix. The best answer is to fix the problems in the business, and this ebay problem will largely go away.

Jeffrey,

Your dollar analysis may be right, but that is not what is promoted by the upline. Also, keep in mind most people don't want to be a "salesperson", so your "selling" IBO may be fairly difficult to find, especially given that you are trying to find and service 30 customers yourself, right?

kjteam,

Stalin was a dictator, not a Communist. If you knew your history, you would be familiar with the originator of Communism, Karl Marx, and his major writing, "The Communist Manifesto", and understand this difference. Stalin was only hiding behind the label of Communism, but in reality he was an extremely ruthless dictator.

However, you have already shown you are interested only in your half of the story by refusing to even listen to what one of the original founders of this business found to be a problem.

As it is said (paraphrased), "Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Peter said:
August 29, 2007 1:34 PM | #

Tex,

Who's side are you on?

Do you realize how much you contradict yourself just so that you can try to be right?

Nobody is impressed with your flambouant exagerations and sarcasism.

I'm sorry that none of us has the time to study Communism like you do, because we are too busy doing productive things with our time-which do not include blogging. Except for the fact that we have to ward off those of your kind.

So Tex, would you please explain yourself? Who's side are you on? And are you a Communist?

Jeffrey said:
August 29, 2007 3:44 PM | #

If people do not want to sell, this is the WRONG business to be in. I knew it was Amway before I ever got in, and I originally got in when the FTC was investigating the company. That meant nothing to me. I had the government all figured out after I got audited by the IRS. Also, I grew up going to a Baptist church so I already knew what infighting was all about.

This is a sales business. That's why the "IBO Compensation Plan" used to be called "The AMWAY SALES and MARKETING Plan. It was not called "The Supplier/Vendor Upline Recruiting and Stacking Plan" but many DISTRIBUTORS have twisted it to be that way.

I'm not going to stand on the street corner waving an American flag and yelling, "Sign up to sell Amway with me!" but neither am I going to hide the fact that sales are involved when I show the MARKETING plan. I will be able to show, not just tell, them how many customers I have and how much they buy every month, and how profitable my new IBOs can be if they register and service a large number of customers that buy the consumables. Only after I have personally helped them develop a large retail business, will I help them to develop an organization, each of which we will help to build a large retail business.

Beryl Nichols said:
August 29, 2007 4:11 PM | #

kjteam:

If more folks spent more time listening to the teachings of Rich DeVos, the Orrin's of the world would be cut off at the knees BEFORE they do so much damage.

But, just like talking to a child, they don't want to listen to anything that doesn't go along with what they want to do, especially when what they are doing is wrong, in the eyes of the parent.

Then comes the "temper tantrum" and banging of the head on the floor.....and let's file a law suit!

kjteam said:
August 29, 2007 4:40 PM | #

Tex:  We both know and so does everyone else that you got my point.

Beryl:  rich who?

What tex, thomspson and beryl are posting are half-truths and spin for honest dialog refer the freetheibo.com web site.

Jerandi said:
August 29, 2007 9:33 PM | #

Tex

I have seen the check for many Plantinums and above. I also know may platinums and above that have quit due to not being able to make enough money in quixtar or amway system. I know many more that have only stayed in due to there tool incomes. My upline has never kept this a secret. No I don't belive the averge income for platinums and above. I know they can be much higher but even then those income pale in comparison to tool incomes.

peter said:
August 30, 2007 12:31 AM | #

Jeffrey,

Excellent point,

The retailing of products is the most important part of the business.

As others have said, the customers are the glue that holds the bricks together.

Beryl Nichols said:
August 30, 2007 2:00 PM | #

kjteam:

I can't understand the point you are trying to make.

rich who?  Rich DeVos, that's who!  I don't understand what half-truths you speak of.

Refer yourself to the post by Jeffrey Aug 29 for the proper way to build a business.  Done this way, you will never be filing law suits trying to protect your ill-gotten gains and you will be profitable and have integrity, credibility and honesty among your associates.

kjteam said:
August 30, 2007 2:44 PM | #

Beryl Nichols:

The point I'm trying to make is that I have never met Rich DeVos, But I have met Orrin Woodward.  He is a man of intense character and determination, yet you think it's ok to slander Orrin as if he were some dictator.  It's not. That is some of the spin I'm talking about.  Other spin is that the prices on products are competitive.  Your spin on lawsuits, there have been plenty of law suits and some are still going on, I refer to one Eric Schribler".  That the Team was building illegally is another spin that you know nothing about, or your spinning the truth on for "q", as this style of building has been inplace since 1999'.    

YOU, stop slandering Orrin and other leaders and stick with the substance of the argument.  If you want to attack me, that's fine, no problem, but stop impuning the reputation of Team leaders.  

As for me, I will apologize for saying "rich who" as it was not an intent to slander Mr. Devos, but to make a  point to you that one has influence on my life and the other one has none.

Tex said:
August 30, 2007 4:11 PM | #

Peter,

I am on 2 sides, the side of truth and the side of the typical IBO, which are actually aligned with each other. Everyone elses' interests are being served except for these 2 "sides".

How have I contradicted myself?

You say "nobody" is....do YOU speak for EVERYBODY, Peter?

If the other poster didn't understand Communism, he shouldn't have brought it up. No, I am not a Communist, quite the opposite. Sorry you couldn't glean that from my past posts.

Jeffrey,

If you choose to have a large retail business, that is your choice. IBO's can comply with the rules with a fairly small retail business in order to earn downline volume bonuses. Let's not take the pendulum to the opposite extreme, each IBO can choose to have whatever size retail they want.

Beryl,

I just got the most hilarious mental image of Orrin in diapers, wearing a bib (and a red tie, of course), banging his head on the floor. Thanks for the laugh of the day.

kjteam,

Of course I know what you meant, but the spin control on the freetheibo site would make Stalin jealous.

Jerandi,

I think you made my point, the tool profits are MASSIVE.

kjteam,

You made a bad choice regarding who you allowed to influence your life.

It's only slander if it's a false statement by speech, it is libel if in writing. If it is a true statement, or believed to be true, it isn't slander or libel. As one of the corporate folks said, Orrin has ZERO credibility. For me, it's negative credibility.

Maureen O'Shea said:
August 30, 2007 4:34 PM | #

I have a question:    Why is Quixtar fighting the request for TROs?

From what I understand, these Temporary Restraining Orders are simply asking that Quixtar not be allowed to harrass, threaten, or intimidate downline (think about the IBO who has been in for three months who received a phone call from Quixtar asking, "Are you with us or not?"); and that Quixtar not terminate an IBO without following its own Rules of Conduct. And they are asking this ONLY temporarily, until a Federal court rules on a larger issue.

Is Quixtar actually saying they WANT the right to harrass, threaten, and intimidate IBOs; and they WANT the right to terminate an IBO at will?

Tex said:
August 30, 2007 5:36 PM | #

Maureen,

I believe the letters only went to Platinums and above. Quixtar only wanted these folks to declare whether they were with Orrin or Quixtar, a pretty reasonable request for them to make, considering the "leaders" of these Platinums and above filed a lawsuit against Quixtar, accusing them of being an illegal pyramid and wanting to be excluded from a basic non-compete rule, after being told they were breaking several rules. I don't consider that harrassing, threatening, or intimidating IBO's. That is enforcing the rules. Why have rules if they don't mean anything?

peter said:
August 31, 2007 7:53 AM | #

Tex,

Is the 'typical' IBO one that spends his time writing useless blogs that fall on deaf ears?

Also, did it ever occur to you that Stalin could have been a Communist-dictator?

Truth is what you make it to be. What's true to you might not be true to another.

Judging by what I have seen on this blog, not too many people like what you have to say.

It doesn't take a gueniuss to figure out that almost all of your posts are counter attacks from others who agree with me.

They can speak for themselves.

Listen Tex, I know that you're big on tool profits being evil, but if you didn't read between the lines that your own fault.

I don't see how some one could by any kind of tool from some one and not expect that person to turn a profit.

It's not anybody's fault that you're too nieve.

But I can understand your anger.

It's like when a child finds out that Santa Clause doesn't actually exist.

Although it would be nice to have a jolly old fella drop down the chimney every Christmas, it's just not realistic.

Now naturally the child is mad, and feels like he has been dooked or lied to. But, later on he finds out that he was really stupid for not seeing between the lines.

So please Tex, come to this realization and move on.

You don't have to make your problem everybody's  problem.

Tex said:
August 31, 2007 11:45 AM | #

peter,

No, the 'typical' IBO is the one who doesn't have a clue as to what is going on. If you are referring to me as "writing useless blogs that fall on deaf ears", I have been contacted via e-mail by the IBOAI blog moderator that a VERY high level (and so far, I will keep him unnamed) IBO wants to talk with me. I have no idea what his agenda is, but have agreed to talk with him.

Before you make a bigger fool of yourself, read the Communist Manifesto and take back that silly idea.

They are extreme opposites.

Truth is truth. You can interpret it differently, but if you make 5X more on tools than Quixtar, there's not much to discuss regarding the level of tool profit, is there? You can interpret what this means, is it appropriate, etc., but it is still 5X.

Judging by what I have seen on this blog, I don't care if many people like what I have to say, because it is the truth.

It doesn't take a gueniuss to figure out that almost all of your posts are counter attacks from others who agree with me. [It doesn't take a genius to spell genius properly, either.]

They can speak for themselves, and I hope they do.

Listen peter, I know that you're not big on tool profits being evil ...

I don't see how some one could by any kind of tool from some one and not expect that person to turn a profit. [This isn't the point, the point is the LEVEL of tool profit creates the real business, and this has been kept secret. I suggest you read/listen to the "Directly Speaking" recordings Rich DeVos made. Former Diamond Bruce Anderson told me recently he was given instructions to destroy any copies he came across in the mid '80's.]

...

But I can understand your anger. ...

It's like when a child finds out that Santa Clause doesn't actually exist.  [Poor analogy. This is business, not fairy tales. Real peoples' real money.]

Although it would be nice to have a jolly old fella drop down the chimney every Christmas, it's just not realistic. [Apples and oranges.]

Now naturally the child is mad, and feels like he has been dooked or lied to. But, later on he finds out that he was really stupid for not seeing between the lines. [Completely different situation.]

So please peter, come to this realization and move on.

You don't have to keep making the tool profit problem everybody's  problem.

Editor's note: Portions of this comment have been edited out to comply with Ada-tudes civil discourse policy.

Kjteam said:
August 31, 2007 2:16 PM | #

Tex,

I had written another post, but the censorship got it, and it was not posted.

I'll tone it down here, so this one can be posted.

The typical IBO is somone who does zero pv and quits at renewal time.  You talk as if you have all the experience and no one else has any.  

Please enlighten us all to your pin level that you achived and if you are still active in the business.  

If you re-read the original post on communiusm you find that I did not itentify Stalin as a communist or dictator but that he would have thoughts on communisum.  I know you think that you have much higher intelect then most of us, but don't think that you own the only realestate of truth there is.  

Your lack of business knowlege is also apparent.  As there may be more payout for tools due to the fact that after fixed costs are paid for, then it is logical to assume that there would be profit.  Then there is more money in tools because Quixtar does not have there hand in it.  No Middle Man.  Just think if that same thing could happen with products too.  Tex, you lack any kind of vision, and can only resort to immature insults and snide comments.  If your the up and coming leadership for the new "Amway" distribution model, then there in more trouble up at alticor then anybody knows.

If your the consultant for the "Lame Duck" IBOA board

Please ask them if my IBOA board dews were optional and if I can get them back from over the last 5 years.  Thanks.  

Aron Gannon said:
September 1, 2007 12:27 AM | #

This message is for all my mighty pals out there who are serious about building a successful business powered by Quixtar/Amway.  I have especially enjoyed many of the comments from "ibofightback" and "jthompson".  At the same time I was glad to here from "jthompson" on another blog that he is retiring from blogging soon.  I need to do the same and get out into the marketplace.  It's been so exciting to follow the Team/Woodward vs. Quixtar battle that I've become like a couch potato TV watcher in front of my computer for the past few weeks.  I've never visited a blog before Aug. 10th and now it's almost an addiction to read this stuff.  That's not going to help position me to take advantage of the new money in the QBI and the massive explosion in on-line shopping.  Thank you mates!  I hope that you go out and register lots of new IBOs and sell lots of products.  I believe the best way we can prove who is right is to go out really kick butt and create a bunch of success.  Also, get plugged in tight with your up-line.  They may be able to handle questions and concerns more effectively than blog administrators and fellow bloggers.  For now on if I have the blog itch, I'll check out some of the other non-TEAM-related material on Opportunity Zone.

God bless.

Aron

peter said:
September 1, 2007 1:47 AM | #

Tex, If you actually beleive the B.S. in the Communist Manifesto then you are even more naive than we all thought.

Communisn in theory and communism in action are extreme opposites.

Seemingly the 'party' was just 'more' equal than others huh?

This may sound obvious, but you may want to read George Orwell's "Animal Farm" along side of the Communist Manifesto to see the real meaning of communism.

But of course, to those of us with discretion, and those who can read between the lines, this isn't necessary.

I think that your biggest problem with tool profits is that there is no disclosure of income being made on these sales.

Well let me ask you, when you go to the supermarket, or the movie theatre, or the pharmacy, or the home improvement store, do they flat out tell you how much they are making off of you?

No. But I'm sure that if you dug in a little bit you could find that information out if you had a problem with the price.

But to some one else the asking price is just fine. They pay the retail no questions asked.

You see your opinion doesn't matter. Just because you wanna save a buck, doesn't mean that the entire world wants to be stingy.

Some people appreciate a price on something because it has value. Some don't.

The point is that the only opinions that matter are those of the individual buyer and the seller. Period.

P.S. reinforceing what's true to you isn't neccessarily true to everybody. Typical.

jthompson said:
September 4, 2007 12:36 PM | #

Gee!  TEAM created a "freetheibo" web forum and said the website is to post all key info related to the Lawsuit of Team/Woodward vs Quixtar.... but somehow the actual outcome of their lawsuit has yet to make it onto their website... in the timeline of events, in press/news release, etc......

Beryl Nichols said:
September 5, 2007 4:00 PM | #

kjteam,

I would ask that you meet Rich DeVos and you would understand why I get so ticked off with a man that would attempt to destroy the business I love and the man who started it.

It was not my intention to "slander" Orrin Woodward.  All he had to do was follow the rules or start his own thing with the millions he made as a Quixtar IBO.

His business practices were wrong, according to Quixtar rules and he knows it.  He did not own Quixtar and couldn't control them the way he does his organization.

The rest is simple! Sowing and reaping.  He is going to start reaping what he has been sowing, at the hands of our legal system.  What a way to spend your millions; helping lawyers instead of people.

Rich will be in Grand Rapids this month at the NA Leadership Conference.  You should go meet him, he won't bite.

T. J. said:
September 7, 2007 9:10 AM | #

Orrin and Chris have great Integrity and Character.  They are amazing Leaders...........and they stand there for US.  They FIGHT for US.  We just want to be set free.  Let us have the option of staying or going.  If Quixtar is sooo amazing as everyone says they are then why are they so petrified to give us that option.  Or why those e mails bashing TEAM.  When I got involved with Team, it wasn't cause of Quixtar, It was cause the people involved in it.  Its more than a website, its a team of people fighting for FREEDOM.  And there is nothing going to stop us.  We are all one,  Ban one of us , Ban us all!!!!!!!!

TEAM         FIRED UP

pvbvguy said:
September 7, 2007 12:58 PM | #

You know there seems to be a real lack of critical thinking with a lot of these posts and an even lesser amount of ability to do any kind of research.

There is a contract that all IBO's sign when they become affiliated with Quixtar and I believe it is still called a BSMAA that deals with systems, etc.  Part of that contract is that you agree to abide by the rules of conduct spelled out in that contract.  There is an arbitration agreement and a dispute resolution process.  

I don't think any of the team guys have read it and the ones that have realized they better come up with something to be able to get around it.  I believe that is where this whole "illegal pyramid" lawsuit came from.  It has a lot less to do with product pricing, etc. than the fact they were trying to protect their system incomes, etc.

Product pricing is always a moving target and everyone regardless of the price wants cheaper pricing.  We do not decide the price of anything; the market does.  I want better more competitve pricing on every product Quixtar sells and I believe there is a major move toward that end at Quixtar.

My guess is that what may be illegal is the tools system that the team guys were running.  Quixtar has talked about abuses and I have heard complaints in the field from "former" team guys.

That is the reason we hear them yelping the loudest.  I think they knew their days with Quixtar were over and they developed this crazy exit strategy.  I think there was a much better way for them to get their freedom and I think they botched it.

I'm sure the team guys who have drank the kool-aid will disagree with me.  From what I see on the blogs they believe their leaders are: 1) Smarter than anyone else in the business  2) The only ones in this with integrity and character  3) The best leaders in this industry  4) The reincarnation of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson  5) The ones who came up with a training system that was better than anything ever devised in the history of the universe.

The above may be a reach, but I guess it could be true and everyone else in this business is misled and simply not as bright as the team leaders.

It may also be true that these guys weren't really in the Quixtar business and that Quixtar was merely a front for their training.  That the best training system in the world was exactly that.  It was the best if you were taking huge profits and buying off a few people with some income and abusing the masses.

The team guys scream and yell really well on these blogs but as I think this through, there is something not right here.  I think the team people need to stop and think.  What is really going on here?  The court cases will eventually sort this out.

Nothing is as great as it seems and nothing is as bad as it seems.  It appears from all that I've read that the team guys are creating a big smoke screen to hide what was really going on and what they were trying to protect.

I feel bad for the people in team who are torn and caught up in this.  A lot of really good people with good intentions will be hurt by this.

Quixtar, IBOAI and the non-team people in the field are not perfect and this business is not perfect.  I don't believe the team leadership is perfect either and I sure don't believe that Orrrin is George Washington reincarnated.  

Everyone has to make up their own mind on this.  I know the DeVos & Vandel families, Amway, Quixtar, IBOAI and all the remaining lines of sponsorship can do better as we move forward.  I know what their doing is legal and will stand the test of time.  I'm not sure that what team is doing is legal.  I'm not willing to roll the dice with my future.  If I had to bet on the long term of this opportunity I'll stick with a business model that is getting better by the day and has stood the test of time.  

I believe the whole team thing is a huge distraction and I believe this whole business model is going to move forward and prosper like never before.

I have no ill-will toward anyone who is in this business.  I think both sides could have handled this business and their systems better.  I hate the fact that it has had to come down to name calling, loud boasting by both sides, TRO's, lawsuits and broken lives.

jthompson said:
September 7, 2007 5:26 PM | #

Ron Simmons said:

August 24, 2007 7:20 PM | #

"please be fair and state the whole truth"

Quixtar/IBOAI can't say it to you, so I will -

with all due respect for your achievements personal life achievements and building a network marketing business with Quixtars suppliers, shipping, contracts, law protection, products, administration, bonuses, rewards, and opportunity...

Ron - if you think freetheibo.com and its site is even close to "please be fair and state the whole truth" then you are smoking your Double X instead of swallowing it.

- Hiring Ashton Partners PR firm to "manage and position information"

- Banning 200+ posts that don't agree with TEAM message

- Not posting decision from Michigan Court

- NON STOP PR SLANDER against Quixtar

Your "Setting the Record Straight" letter & the other letters on freetheibo ranks with Bernarr Macfadden for deceitful propaganda literature.

TEAM is history.  Even if they stayed alive... TEAM has sowed the seeds for its own destruction.

Aron Gannon said:
September 9, 2007 10:45 PM | #

pvbvguy, good comments on Sept. 7.  Also, I want to take back some of the things I wrote on Sept. 1 above.  August '07 was the first time I have ever had any experience with blogging.  I was drawn to it to stay up to date with the Woodward/TEAM vs. Quixtar battle.  The first time I heard of blogs was when I read Dr. Steve W. Price's book "WWW. Stands for 'World Wide Whiners', How the Internet is being manipulated by the MIFFED."  After reading this book I figured blogs were mainly a place where negative people spread misinformation.  After reading the Quixtar and Alticore blogs for the past month and occationally contributing, I have a better appreciation for blogging.  I think that I will continue, but I'll work on budgeting a specific amount of time to it, so it doesn't inhibit my business building activities.  One of my favorite quotes from Price's book is "The antidote to the Whiners' sites would be for 10,000 successful associates to start their own positive sites that link back and forth to each other, but that would require taking time away from working their Direct Selling business, reducing their profits, and undermining their dreams.  That's not going to happen.  Which is why Whiners rule the Web."  This is exactly what IBOfightback is doing with his site www.thetruthaboutamway.  I appreciate the sacrifice he is making to balance all the many negative sites devoted to criticizing the Quixtar business opportunity.

BRIAN DEHART said:
September 19, 2007 7:03 PM | #

Although I chose not to build a large Quixtar Powered Business, I built a very sucessful home improvement business using the motivation, inspiration & education that this awesome system provides, Orin Woodward Inspired me to success in many aspects of my life and for that, i`m forever thankful,They say the love of money can destroy a person or a country, how much is enough? Thank you Quixtar & Orin woodward for changing my life. And thank you Dex.

LETS GET BACK TO THE BASICS.  

Dean Howard said:
October 3, 2007 11:33 AM | #

You know what's great.  You can choose not to buy tools at all.  You can choose to buy a little, or you can choose to be a part of standing order or other programs.  People will promote them for profit or because they believe you will benefit, maybe for both reasons, but you have a choice.  If you don't need the tools, go build it yourself.  If you can't, then maybe you should learn from someone, maybe even via CD.  The discussion of tool value and price is a market-driven issue.  If people find them of value, they'll buy them, if not, they won't.  Apparently, many people find them of value, that's OK with me.

As for price, come on, we'd all like the stuff to cost nothing, be the best on the market, and have high pv, then we could all go platinum in a week and not have to really learn any new skills or do much work.  I'm still looking for ANYTHING that works like that.  It's not the prices holding you back.

Amstar, Quickway, regardless of what it's called, an intelligent person can evaluate a business on its merits.  Seems to me there were more emeralds and diamonds in Amway...maybe they're on to something.  Think about it, all the emeralds/diamonds/most of the platinums you know got in even though it was called Amway.  The same will happen again.

As for Team, it's sad for the downlines.  But you are independents and your ability to build your own business is not limited by your upline's actions or battles.  Don't use your upline or Q reaction as an excuse.  Go build the thing within the guidelines you agreed to for your family and don't get wrapped up in the politics of the Gods of Quixtar.

You sell stuff you get paid.  You help other people succeed you get paid.  Q's not going away.

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