Stacking vs. Depth-Building
Tuesday, August 14, 2007  by Todd Krause
Category: , ,

Lots of people have been posting comments seeking our explanations regarding “Stacking” vs. “Depth-Building.” Also, there have been questions about Quixtar’s authorization of a customized SA4400 for Team.  Let me try to shed some light on this.

The Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan is a multilevel plan – people make money from selling product personally and from the sales of product by those they sponsor.  We don’t dictate how any IBO builds their business in terms of width or depth.  IBOs are free to choose their own organizational structure – provided it is within acceptable business practices. 

Depth-building has long been part of the business for those who wish to build a large organization, and the IBO Compensation Plan is structured to reward sales volume from such a structure.  On the other hand, “stacking” is unacceptable. Stacking is when an IBO doesn’t know their sponsor or did not agree to be sponsored by the IBO who is registered as their sponsor.  Stacking often is accompanied by misrepresentations that distort the Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan. Stacking violates the IBO Rules of Conduct.

In the beginning, when Team represented to Quixtar that they were teaching acceptable depth-building, we authorized a customized SA4400 so that those participating in that methodology understood that they would be less profitable in the short to medium term.  We thought it important to manage the expectations of prospective IBOs.  It appears now, however, that the actual method taught by Team was beyond acceptable depth-building and amounted to stacking.

It is interesting to note Team’s decision to leave the Quixtar business came two weeks after Jim Payne, Quixtar Managing Director, sent a message to all Quixtar Platinums that the company would be investigating “stacking” allegations and penalizing those businesses found to be engaging in this practice. Check out Jim’s email below:

July 25, 2007

To Qualified Platinums and above:

One of the fundamental principles for achieving success with Quixtar is to build a knowledgeable and successful sales force that features, as its foundation, a personal relationship between each Independent Business Owner (IBO) and his or her sponsor. That relationship is the building block for every line of sponsorship and affects the potential awards and rewards obtained through the Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan.

It would be a serious violation of an IBO's contract and Quixtar Rules to circumvent this principle by manipulating the Plan through the practice of "stacking.” Stacking occurs when an upline IBO places a new IBO under another IBO in their Quixtar line of sponsorship without regard for whether the IBO knows and has a relationship with their frontline sponsor. Accordingly, stacking is deemed to take place when a new IBO doesn’t know their sponsor or doesn't agree with whom their registered sponsor is. In all such cases, stacking is a serious violation of Rule 4.25, the Plan Manipulation Rule (see below*). Moreover, our complaint history confirms that the absence of a relationship often is accompanied by high-risk representations that trigger pyramid and securities law issues.

Quixtar wishes to make sure that all leaders know and understand that “stacking” is not acceptable and to further communicate this to their downlines.

Please understand that not all depth-building is stacking. If prospective IBOs wish to align vertically and they know their sponsor and approve of the arrangement, it is acceptable. In such instances, however, Quixtar wants to make sure IBOs understand that this choice is optional, and that an IBO with only one leg will not be as profitable as an IBO with multiple legs. In fact, the concern over potential profitability is why Quixtar encourages the building of balanced businesses that include the retail sale of product to customers and sponsoring that results in both depth and width in the line of sponsorship.

To further deter and stop the practice of stacking, effective September 1, 2007, Quixtar will initiate the following policy:

POLICY - Effective September 1, 2007 whenever Quixtar becomes aware of (i) a new IBO that either does not know their sponsor or who sponsored someone they do not know or (ii) a new IBO that does not agree with whom their sponsor is, Quixtar will immediately flag that Platinum group and will begin an internal review of the situation which may include but not be limited to calling all new IBOs of the group after they register to ask them to verify their sponsor. As the Rules of Conduct hold qualified Platinums responsible for compliance within their personal groups, if the internal review reveals cases of stacking, Quixtar will take the following steps:

First Occurrence: Quixtar will place a freeze on all sponsoring within that Platinum’s group until all IBOs in that group receive training communication from Quixtar on acceptable sponsoring practices.

Second Occurrence: Quixtar will suspend the Platinum business for a minimum of 30 days, including forfeiture of bonuses.

Third Occurrence: Further action up to, and including, termination of the Platinum’s contract with Quixtar.

** As with all Quixtar enforcement actions, an IBO can appeal company action through the dispute resolution procedures described by the Rules of Conduct.**

Quixtar is extremely serious about prohibiting the practice of stacking.

Your assistance in ensuring that your group fully understands and abides by the rules against stacking is appreciated.

Thanks for your help with this.


Comments

Joe said:
August 14, 2007 2:23 PM | #

Thank you for clearing this up for people. You may want to go over and post it in the Alticor blog. Lots of misinformed people in there.

The Real Quixtar Blog said:
August 14, 2007 2:59 PM | #

In response to a lot of questions about "stacking" and the customized version of the SA4400

Inside Quixtar said:
August 14, 2007 3:25 PM | #

Today you'll see a post by Todd Krause over at Ada-tudes addressing the differences between stacking

kdsj said:
August 14, 2007 5:01 PM | #

The company's definition and their NEW policy that is not currently effective and hasn't been effective.  Rules broken? not in effect.  and as for the definition...the company's definition or an MLM attorney's definition... http://www.mlmlegal.com/faq.html

Stacking is the 2nd to the last question.

you decide

ibofightback said:
August 14, 2007 5:03 PM | #

Thanks for the corp. position - it clarifies things somewhat. In general folk tend to refer to "stacking" as any placement of an IBO downline of someone other than the person who introduced them to the business. By the corp. definition if a prospect and sponsor agree to this then this would be appropriate depth building rather than stacking. I'd just call it "inappropriate stacking" vs "appropriate stacking". I've updated my post on my site to incorporate the corp. position.

Has the corp. given any consideration the option of having both an "enroller" and a "sponsor" as some MLMs have? Appropriate Team depth-building can be very powerful, and tracking such information would be sensible and useful.

JollyPolly said:
August 14, 2007 5:09 PM | #

The above letter can not be constituted as proof of why this current issue is occuring.  For all we know, you could have wrote yourself -it is written in your post - it appears that you did and wrote the date in as July 25, 2007.  You have a class action suit against you and your legal council said "SURE POST THE EVIDENCE ONLINE" If "stacking" was an issue, ALL IBOS would already know what it is and not need you to tell us now.  If illegal stacking was occuring, why are Orrin and Chris and the board members the ONLY ones terminated?  You say you want to help the TEAM members transition to the Quixtar Way, but then bash their leader in the most unprofessional way - on an internet blog...is Quixtar run by a bunch of 14 year old girls?  It appears Quixtar didn't care about "stacking" until they realized that by refusing to change their prices - something that would help ALL IBOs - they were going to lose a lot of business which has produced A LOT of volume and $$ ; and like a 14 year old girl, they had a tantrum ONLINE FOR ALL TO SEE...Why don't you send your so called proof to the courts?  Why are you blogging all of this information?  If your legal council approved of your posts, you may want to terminate them too, and your entire PR staff while you're at it since they clearly aren't doing their job.  Why don't you man up and deal with private matters behind closed doors.  You can probably be sued for slander or breech of privacy as you have decided to release information about an IBOs INDEPENDANTLY OWNED BUSINESS in the most public form possible, and again blogging like a 14 year old.  Why don't you tell all IBOs about the phone calls you are making threatening to delay the platinum seminar because you don't want anyone from TEAM to be there?  People at the platinum level are having the benefits of FREE enterprise and the reward they worked very hard for stripped because you terminated the business of their upline.  By the way, good luck with the AMWAY name.  Did you come across a bag of bad ideas and just keep pulling?

JollyPolly said:
August 14, 2007 5:11 PM | #

Comments policy: Please note that comments are moderated . All comments are welcome as long as they are on topic and respectful. We reserve the right to remove without warning any and all offensive, unlawful, defamatory, or libelous comments, as well as any personal attacks or offensive language.  

You can't even follow your own blog rules why would we believe you were following those that keep you from running a pyramid

G_W said:
August 14, 2007 5:48 PM | #

This is great! So refreshing to see a timely response to a burning issue like this. Thanks for getting this info out there!

"Interesting to note" the timing of this TEAM blow-up, indeed!

Jake L said:
August 14, 2007 5:54 PM | #

I'm confused, you said "It is interesting to note Team’s decision to leave the Quixtar business came two weeks after Jim Payne, Quixtar Managing Director...". The Alticor Blog and Quixtar News release said "terminated". I understood that some of the members of TEAM resigned their positions on the board. Are you intentionally trying to confuse the two events?  

As for me, I have seen enough. I have defended Quixtar and Amway for quite some time, but I don't know how we can get past this now. I'm not part of TEAM's LOS, but I believe that Alticor has damaged us all. I shared this opportunity with a very nice couple last night and they said that if it had anything to do with "Amway" they were not interested, and now you are going to make us lead with it? I won't be included in that group, I'll be finding a different opportunity. How do we know that if we build even larger organizations over the next several years that you won't change the deal again. I thought that the IBOAI board was supposed to help us in that but it's obvious that Alticor will be doing what ever they want regardless. It's like I've been sucker punched.

Editor's Notes:  It's a chicken/egg question. They were terminated, but clearly they planned to leave the business when the company took this action, given the fact they announced their intentions to form a new company and were named as plaintiffs in a lawsuit against the company.  No formal communication tendering resignation was received prior to their termination, but it was their choice that led to this company action.  

As for disclosing to a prospect that he or she is joining the Quixtar business and that Amway is a sister company, most IBOs eventually discover this so denying it only leads to distrust of the sponsoring IBO. -- Robin Luymes

Trevor said:
August 14, 2007 6:04 PM | #

This clears up Amway's prespective somewhat, my question is: Is the policy on stacking new as of Sept 1 or has it always been in place?

And can you post rule 4.25 so we can see the verbage in context?

I don't know where my Business Compendium is and I haven't been able to find a link to it on the Quixtar site.

Thanks.

 

Editor's Note:  Rules of Conduct found at Quixtar.com in the Business Opportunity section found on the front page.  Not a new rule.

 4.25. IBO Plan Manipulation: No IBO shall manipulate the IBO Plan or sales volume, in any way which results in the payment of bonuses or other awards and recognition that have not been earned in accordance with the terms of the IBO Plan and/or the Business Reference Guide.

--  RL

Ben said:
August 14, 2007 6:08 PM | #

JollyPolly, I can only conlude that the corporation is doing the RIGHT thing. They are going to lose a lot volume and profits by terminating businesses. THAT shows integrity!

ken shinn said:
August 14, 2007 6:20 PM | #

I have not stacked but I have had three people at a meeting and placed one under another who did not know each other but they met at my meeting.  I am working with both and they are and were alright with the one who I contacted first getting in first..depth builds security- and I tell them it is smarter to build depth but we can put them both under me-Instead since I want to help them both I explained why they would be better served if they were sponsored the way I suggested- I gave an sa 4400 and did everything legal-width is that one reason why I went 1500 three times--before going 4000 and did you make more off of my groups then or if I would have secured them in depth--you do not know if you have not been on the front lines building this business having to dodge the word Amway which conjers up somone with high britches, white socks,a bad tie and bad breath pedaling shoe spray and soap!

 

Editor's Note: Depth building done appropriately -- with all parties in agreement -- is permitted.  Nobody's asking you to promote the Amway business at this time. You are currently in the Quixtar business and will be until we make significant changes to all aspects of the business, which we anticipate will be 18-24 months. -- RL

Jeff LeGros said:
August 14, 2007 6:22 PM | #

I'm glad to see the action taken for stacking. That is not the way I've been taught.

Steve said:
August 14, 2007 6:51 PM | #

What are the significant changes to all aspects of the business that you are referring to?  

Trevor said:
August 14, 2007 7:16 PM | #

Thanks for the quick response.

Jake L said:
August 14, 2007 7:37 PM | #

Thanks Robin for twisting my words. I didn't say anything about not "disclosing" or "denying" Quixtar/Amway, it just feels to me that there are better ways of approaching it for us out in the field. But thanks for questioning my integrity.

 Editor's Note: My apologies if I misunderstood. The approach that has been taught by Team includes referring to Quixtar as one of many vendors. The reasons for doing so are those you expressed in your comments.  RL

HSW said:
August 14, 2007 8:03 PM | #

Addressed to RL (editor's note) in regards to his comments made to Jeff LeGros:

This is not about promoting the Amway business. It is about not telling the whole story.  If I know about the name change back to Amway than I mislead a prospect today by signing him up in Quixtar. He will have no choice in the future after he invested 2 years of sweat and tears building his business.

It's like TEAM not mentioning QUIXTAR. Arn't you doing the same thing here?

Check out www.businesswire.com Type “Quixtar” in the search box and hit enter. Quixtar already officially changed their name back to “Amway” back in July as far as the books go.

 

Editor's Note: Thanks HSW. This is why the new Quixtar Business Opportunity Brochure (QBOB) that all new prospects will be required to receive beginning in September includes a disclosure that they are joining Quixtar today but that, after unprecedented changes to our business, a rebranding will occur to align ur North America business with the global Amway business.  RL

Queen Mary said:
August 14, 2007 8:04 PM | #

I'm an IBO (well, was an active IBO) in the True North Organization...up here in Canada, eh! Our leaders sold us out to the Team way of doing business last October. That ****ed me off then, and it still does. It wasn't the opportunity I had signed up for, and although I was only a 4000 Pin, I didn't think this stacking and X/S drinking was what my dreams and Quixtar was all about. But if I didn't buy into it....tough luck...do something else with your life! Personally I'm glad to see the Team hit the bricks, I just hope that a lot of hard working IBO's don't hit the bricks with them. Did I say... LEADERS???

Marcos said:
August 14, 2007 8:42 PM | #

A house can not be divided within itself and think it will continue to stand. I am a recent sponsered IBO by someone that I do know!  This has been very discouraging news and believe me, it can't be good for morale eighther. Do I go or do I stay?  It's a pitty that such a good concept as multi level networking organizations always end up crumbleling from the top because of rival philosophies.  I could be wrong but this thing about inappropriate stacking and exceptable depth building is confusing to me as a new IBO and sounds like a contridiction of terms. All I know is that the little guy always gets hurt and I am questionably thinking wether it's a good idea to invest time and effort into a business plan that could flounder later and render my time and effort useless.

ChrisDeLong said:
August 14, 2007 9:31 PM | #

Before making statements and confusing facts, read the lawsuit. There are errs on both sides, but Alticor is sadly the true culprit.

The litigation filed holds so much against Alticor, it is entirely disingenuous to let there action go. What this really seems like is a power asssertion by the corporation. http://www.shauncarter.com/images/Complaint.pdf

Jonathan James Collier said:
August 14, 2007 9:37 PM | #

Great job Quixtar! I'm proud of the business today and very excited about the business in the future. Keep up the great work and thanks for being more transparent then ever! Love the opportunityzone!

Martha said:
August 14, 2007 10:19 PM | #

I was building the business when it was Amway and people were building it very big then.  We were glad when they changed the name, but we were never ashamed of the business.  There was always integrity under Amway and the original founders.  Amway conjures up people working hard to build a business and benefit their families, period.

Josh P. said:
August 14, 2007 10:27 PM | #

I'm an IBO that's been with the opportunity for many years.  I've seen trends in sponsoring and depth-building techniques come and go, but none of them seemed 'wrong' until I heard about the 'Team Depth Building' plan.   IF it is done in accordance with business rules (by making sure that the sponsoring parties truly know each other, or at the very least are properly introduced and the nature of the business relationship is clearly spelled out) AND care is taken to focus on width as well, it could be effective.

Sadly, the problem was, often the training materials themselves would encourage blind stacking.  That, in particular, was what bothered be about the entire method.

I'm very proud to say that my upline Diamond and Emerald both refused to implement blind stacking.  Alticor's decision to make it clear that blind stacking was an unsound business practice also makes me proud.  An organization that is willing to stand up and say "this is wrong", and take action against people who violate the spirit of the business even if it means a hit to the bottom line, is worthy of respect and my further business.

Thank you for renewing my belief in the Quixtar business model.

Doc said:
August 14, 2007 11:13 PM | #

Being part of the Legacy Business Group having recently become affiliated with TEAM, at no time was TEAM nor Legacy promoting "stacking."  In fact, in their registration packet, it says, and I quote:  

Pre Registration instructions:

1. Please provide all prospects with the SA-4400 prior to registration. The SA-4400 is also known as the Independent Business Ownership Plan.

2. It is imperative that the potential IBO receive the SA-4400 prior to registration. This can be accomplished by either distributing the Part 2 pack (which has the form pre-packaged) or by personally handing the form to the prospect.

3. The new IBO must have actual knowledge of their immediate sponsor. Furthermore, the new IBO needs to be aware of the distinction between their upline mentor and their sponsor. This clarification is very important in the registration process.

See pre-registration rule #3?  Stacking?  It doesn't appear to me that way, and it has always been this way as long as Legacy has been affiliated with TEAM (about a year).  Because the prospect was provided with an SA-4400, they knew they were signing up with Quixtar and seeing the IBO compensation plan because it says right on top "Quixtar Affiliated Independent Business Owner (IBO) Registration."  Furthermore, in any and all Open Opportunity meetings, it has been explained that if you only have one group that is deep, you will NOT be profitable and that you need more groups to become profitable (at least 3 to the 7500 pv level were promoted).  The most you would get with one group and no outside volume is 25% back on your own consumption.  No more, no less.  If at any time you wanted to become profitable, build another couple of groups.  Not sure what all the illegal depth building accusations are all about.

This is quoted from TEAM's SA-4400 that was content reviewed by Quixtar (CR #17851):

Team’s Approach: Participation in Team’s approach to building a business powered by Quixtar is strictly voluntary. Team utilizes long-term vision, delayed gratification (short-term income is smaller when focusing on depth more than width), and utilize the power of compounding (depth is intended to create, but is not guaranteed to produce, duplication and longterm results). Team focuses in part on building depth in the sponsoring process. The use of this methodology, while somewhat different from how other IBOs may promote building a business, does not alter how PV/BV are calculated or how bonuses are paid by Quixtar through the IBO Plan.

Just as an aside, I can't actually believe anyone at corporate is actually considering going back to the Amway name, even if it is down the road.  We signed up under Amway and found the name was a hard pill to swallow for many, many people (wasn't for us, because we'd never even heard of Amway--one of the few apparently).  We were glad to see the change to Quixtar and we hope the powers that be see the good and the wisdom of changing names.

I know my opinion doesn't matter, right now things are heated, mud is flying, and lawyers are involved.  I hope cooler heads and thoughtful minds prevail.  This appears to be a Lose-Lose situation at this point.  Disappointing really, and unfortunate.

ken shinn said:
August 14, 2007 11:24 PM | #

I have met emeralds and Platinums in my month of seeing the plan and getting in again and just like the tools agreement --Team is doing it right and we are making sure people know up front what we are doing.

Stacking is depth building and Quixtar's pricing has to get better.  

Wanda said:
August 14, 2007 11:31 PM | #

I'm glad to hear the Amway name come back. My customers will rejoyce. I ordered a gal of L.O.C. for a customer and the delivery fee was $6.85, I sure wish the delivery fees were less.

Tex said:
August 14, 2007 11:31 PM | #

I understand what you are saying when strangers end up sponsoring each other, and the opportunity can be distorted. However, there is also a problem when the IBO's in depth know each other, as they end up trusting each other too much, based on their pre-existing friendship. I think it is far more important to know the facts regarding where the vast majority of the profit comes from (the tools) than whether the sponsored person is a stranger or a friend.  

ibofightback said:
August 14, 2007 11:47 PM | #

Marcos - stay.

The biz has been through worse before, and still here and bigger than ever.

Ocean dog said:
August 15, 2007 12:02 AM | #

I truly cannot believe that I am reading such nonsense.  Can we seriously think that if you add someone in depth under another ibo, that first ibo would throw up his hands and say- no please don't put anyone under me!  I don't want to be in business with that person?!  I can't imagine anyone would ever care if someone was added in depth.  I've heard so many sad stories of IBO's who loved the business concept but never had the opportunity to achieve any levels of sucess because they never were able to sponsor a single person.  After awhile that kills a persons belief and then they leave the business and say it stinks.  Depth building allows someone to grow and develop and experience success.  I've seen time and time again when, through a depth buidling approach, people achieve more than they ever could alone.  Depth building can't be understoon on paper. It can only be understoon when you see the light in that 1,000 pin's eyes.....It's the ah ha!  This will work light.  It gives people their hope back!  And it seems to me that the organization in question has had a lot of success using this approach.  It's very interesting that now- all of a sudden- this is a problem.  Doesn't make sense to me.

Editor's Note: In this and other comments, people seem to have not understood Todd's post. As he and Jim's letter indicates, depth building is permissable, provided all parties are aware of where they are being placed in that organization and are introduced to their sponsor. If that is the practice of IBOs building in depth, there should be no issues!  It's when a new IBO is not told this is happening that issues arise (and, yes, it's not usually the person who has received a new downline with no effort who would complain).  RL

Brad Obert (current IBO) said:
August 15, 2007 12:10 AM | #

Queen Mary?......did your upline or any other IBO for that matter, force you to switch to "Team"?  I believe you had and still have the right to build the business with no system at all if you wish.  Go build it.

I've been registered with Amway since '96, through to Quixtar even today.  I was blown away by the comments made by the corporation about Orrin Woodward on the blog.  Reminds me of some other folks on the web, spewing falsehoods about the corporation.  I think Quixtar just planted a big old seed called "doubt" in all who read that.  Someone will be wrong.  If it's Team, then Quixtar looks bad for letting it go for 7 years, and letting Team leadership be all over the IBOAI board, Team leaders will have to move on.  It it's Quixtar, then they still look bad because web text never goes away.  Folks will be reading these comments and the comments by the corporation for years after any legal battle has been decided.  Doesn't seem well thought out to me.

Brad Obert said:
August 15, 2007 12:14 AM | #

Forgot 1 question.  In my opinion, Team is one of the few groups out there trying to be transparent about the "system" money.   Seems odd that this particular group is the example.  Also seems to be more and more folks in the know, stating comments about Quixtar/Amway protecting the tool systems of a very few giant IBO's.  Interesting that this very blog states clearly, "the spirit of transparency" right in the acknowledgement I have to see when i wish to post here.  Laughable.

Steve McElmurry, WI said:
August 15, 2007 12:25 AM | #

As suggested above, I have read the entire lawsuit. I'm not a lawyer, but told my wife I wish I was the Quixtar lawyer because it would be fun to take Team's position apart.

Failure to make a retail sale is failure on the part of the salesman, not the company that priced the product.

All of Team's complaints should appropriately be placed at their own feet--I know of no person who has been approached by a representative of Quixtar or Amway or Alticor about becoming an IBO or selling their products. That approach is always made by an IBO, by definition an independent contractor.

Were they truly upset about these seeming problems, the TEAM leadership would have stopped years and years ago, sponsoring other people. There is no recruitment quota emposed by Quixtar. Team continued to recruit, and by their own statements, mislead, new IBOs of their own choice, and for their own gain.

The way Quixtar or the founding families price product is really their decision--it's their product line, and all of us have simply signed up for the opportunity to move it in market. It's as silly as me complaining about the price of construction material to my suppliers. Either I sell it, or find new suppliers, or go out of business.

Marcus, above, is worried about his time and effort being wasted if he fails in business. I try to empathize, but COME ON! I have over $12000 in tools in construction, plus advertising, plus wages, plus govt compliance, plus, plus, plus. Do the math in the Quixtar plan. What they offer to pay for developing TEN customers is absolutely crazy it's sooo good.  Let alone the opp to assist another person in developing a business, and they pay a leadership bonus for helping????? Stop looking at this Quixtar deal like "one of those things" and look at it like an honest-to-goodness real business, compared to some other regular business.

Ocean dog said:
August 15, 2007 12:31 AM | #

Quenn Mary, I have a question for you.  Since you've joined the team, has your business gotten bigger?

Ocean dog said:
August 15, 2007 12:57 AM | #

Queen Mary, I have a question for you.  Since joining the Team, has your business grown?

KNP said:
August 15, 2007 1:05 AM | #

Mr. Krause, you said, "It is interesting to note Team’s decision to leave the Quixtar business came two weeks after Jim Payne, Quixtar Managing Director, sent a message to all Quixtar Platinums that the company would be investigating “stacking” allegations and penalizing those businesses found to be engaging in this practice.".  As a Team IBO for 5 years, depth building as defined by you IS what I was taught from the very beginning.  Making sure individuals have a relationship and agree to work together is exactly what we did.

It's crystal clear that the reason Team is leaving Quixtar is due to all the items listed in the lawsuit that Quixtar failed to address... NOT because of an Email sent by Jim Payne about stacking.  

You and the Alticor PR department are misleading by broadly implying Team taught stacking.  Your statement, "It appears now, however, that the actual method taught by Team was beyond acceptable depth-building and amounted to stacking.".  I was never taught to stack.  The Team's teaching of depth building is correct and valid.  It's your unwarranted comments that are 'beyond acceptable'.

Eric S said:
August 15, 2007 1:34 AM | #

Jolly,

Quixtar didn't take this public, the plaintiffs who filed the lawsuit in violation of their contract took it publc. I for one am glad Quixtar is responding instead of laying down.

Chris,

Of course the lawsuit accuses Quixtar of being everything but a fatherless child.That's what people do when they are trying to justify their own actions Do you expect them to present a balanced view.

Doc,

The heads of Legacy Wilson and Haugen filed litigation against Quixtar in violation of their contract.Do you propose that Quixtar ignore the fact that these two are claming the business is illegal and continue to keep them in good standing?

To anyone else who suggests that Quixtar post info on the Alticor blog, please don't. That is an embarassment to anyone who attempts to have civil discourse. Someone at corp need to stand up and admit it.

Ron N. said:
August 15, 2007 3:21 AM | #

I'm new to TEAM (Two months) but I was previously in Amway twice and Quixtar once in the past 30 Years.I believe in the concept and want to build my business.

When I was in Amway both times I was also in the Navy and moved from coast to coast. At that time You could not build the Business long distance because of shiping costs. Back then the products were priced

where as an IBO the prices were close to comparable But it was Hard to Retail, You had to sell at cost to get anybody to even think about it.

When in Quixtar we still built the Business in the spider way and because it was so hard to build stable depth and the prices were even worse, Our Emerald down all calapsed.

When I saw TEAM and was TOLD THIS WAS STILL Quixtar but a better way of depth building I was ecstatic, I could see how much more stable the depth was building it this way, But was still unhappy with the prices.

Now here I go again! I want the Business but you take away what I see good, and still have the high prices. "GIVE ME SOMETHING"

For a company that runs around claiming that this way of retailing is better because we dont have the warehousing, Distrbution, and advertising costs but yet the prices are out of reach by the IBO's unless you are getting a 15% to 25% Bonus, let alone trying to retail anything.  "GIVE ME SOMETHING PLEASE"

Elliott said:
August 15, 2007 3:52 AM | #

I am on a Quixtar LOS that recently joined TEAM. My previous team also followed the depth building principles of the TEAM, so I'd have to say that I don't know how to build the business "properly". The transition has slowed me down as I studied furiously to learn the TEAM method of sponsoring and systematic volume techniques (D.O.T.1 S.T.E.P with the XS lines). Now I am doubly confused, and would like some guidance on how to go far enough upline to a group who is following the SA440 correctly. Any suggestions?

Paul Bodine said:
August 15, 2007 4:01 AM | #

It's very encouraging to hear such clear thinking on the subject of this controversy.  It confirms my belief that only the best people are drawn to and stay with this great business.  

As an AmQuix Distributor/IBO since 1992 I've always been proud of "The Corporation" as I've tradionally referred to the folks in ADA, but something seems to have gotten seriously off track.  Is the place being run by attorney's now because that seems like the only ones who are going to come out ahead at least in the short term.

Here are some points that others may want to think about and comment on:

1)  If we have truly moved from the industrial age to the information age, then the tide (forgive the pun) is with the teachers and purveyors of the information on how to build communities of "Prosumers" consumers/sales/business people and not the manufactures; i.e. Wal-mart dictates terms to Proctor and Gamble, not the other way around.  Is that what is making you nervous Alticor?  If so I would think you should be thrilled to have groups like the Team working hard to make your products #1 in the world, like they were in the process of doing with the XS Drinks and Nutrilite Food bars, and like they were prepared to do with other products that could compete on their own in the marketplace where we IBO's that don't collect a paycheck from The Corporation have to (sorry, choose to) make a living with this "opportunity".

2)  How is it fair that an IBO who has invested incomparably more in thier teams growth and success be barred from communicating with thier group over such an important decision while The Corporation is free to collect their people into meetings and make phone calls pushing their agenda and point of view?

3)  Is The Corporation being "transparent" about its intention to severely, restrict the use of IBO produced and distributed Business Support Materials and open meeting and seminars to the point that there will be no more "system" as those of us whose  use of "tools" has been influenced by Dexter Yager have come to know it?

Fig said:
August 15, 2007 4:24 AM | #

Oh please, if the corporation was really concerned about being above board, they would have 1. posted the "stacking" concerns on the website so that any IBO could have access to the facts. Instead of accusing the TEAM as teaching it inccorrectly.  A Quixtar representative is ALWAYS in attendance at any major function. 2. Announced the upcoming name change on their "what's new" facts on the website.....instead of a third party reporting this information (businesswire.com) 3. Made clear why the other Diamonds were terminated.  There are some of them named in the suit that have part of the corporation for over 30 years!!  Have the violations been going on that long and now the concern to fly straight has been the utmost importance?  All I can see in the comments are about Orrin Woodward, what about the others.  They all contributed to the 1.6 billion in sales the company is responsible for.  I wonder if the partner stores will be happy to hear that you just cut your sales staff by more than in half.  Do they know that you just pulled their strings too?

Fig said:
August 15, 2007 5:13 AM | #

One more thing.........It's amazing that the TEAM has been the fastest growing in the corporation for the last 7 or 8 years and this is how the highest performing people are being treated.  I don't thnk it was coincidence that these high-ranked IBO's were terminated just prior to the yearly bonus distribution.  Greed has an ugly stench!!

J.E.M. said:
August 15, 2007 9:08 AM | #

Todd, Personally knowing TEAM IBO's, stacking is not a common practice among the TEAM.  Don't get me wrong, their are times, especially when new IBO's are involved, that it can happen.  That said, the allegations and the most embarrassing statement I have ever seen this company release has caused me great embarrassment and I know building my business just got  a lot tougher.

     Let's talk about the real problems:  IBOAI board being powerless, Quixtar being changed back to AMWAY (An even greater mistake).  Finally, Your lack of LISTENING to the IBO"S that are entering the living rooms of AMERICA!!!  Good luck proving Stacking against the TEAM..

Nathan said:
August 15, 2007 9:14 AM | #

THANK YOU, Quixtar.  You are removing tons of roadblocks for our business.  We could not be MORE excited for taking out people for doing illegal things and giving us a bad reputation.  With new bonuses, products, marketing... this business is going to be off the hook!  Thanks again - and as always in this business - ignore the ignorant nay-sayers.

New to both organizations! said:
August 15, 2007 10:31 AM | #

I am new to Team and Quixtar as of Aug. 1st. So I have not had time to establish any “loyalties” to either. I can say that I was told that I was joining Quixtar, which I read Quixtar saying that Team was not telling people that and I do know the person that sponsored me.  I was even made aware that Quixtar was owned by Alticor who also owns Amway, which almost made me back out of the deal. Now with all this happening I think I am going to go ahead and back out. Alticor/Quixtar has done nothing in my opinion but bash Team, meanwhile Team is saying only they want Quixtar to “let their people go” and that part of the problem is the high prices, which is TRUE!! That is the one thing I didn’t realize before joining. It is ridiculous on most items. I tried selling the B2B items to a couple of companies last week and the price they are paying now is WAY lower than the IBO cost!! You can’t retail this stuff!! Are you kidding?? Not to mention the 1st thing people say is “Is it Amway?” NOBODY wants Amway! They don’t even know why, they just know they don’t want it!! And it is hard to change someones mind after years of hearing bad things about Amway and now Quixtar is changing the name back to Amway. COUNT ME OUT!! You can’t sell this expensive merchandise as it is, stamp the Amway name on it and people won’t even discuss it with you!

And why would Quixtar/Alticor want to hold a bunch of people to a contract that they are so terribly unhappy with? I have seen THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of Team people…you really want that many people mad at your company? I agree with the lady that said you found a bad idea bag and keep pulling! I personally don’t want to be associated with a company that talks all this trash on the internet and with all their wealth tries to stop people like me, who are just getting by, from exploring other better opportunities.

Don said:
August 15, 2007 10:45 AM | #

To all who seem to be siding with the corporation, it looks like you want to lump this whole thing in as a few bad eggs, ego maniacs, mony hungry folks missleading the masses...  if you truly knew what was going on, you would have a different opinion.  Unfortunately, this whole thing happened, and short term it is going to be a very bumpy road as emotions are high.  It is just sad that it had to come to this.  I agree that at first glance the Teams lawsuit looks childish and irrelevent, however, there is much more to it than the words on that complaint.  The ENTIRE IBOIA board was in agreement to what was done, most of them put their names on the line and gave up their business to make a point... The IBOIA board has been slowly shut down to nothing but a 'feel good' figure head for the IBO's  I still think A/Q/A is a great opportunity, but it is the information age, and changes are needed if this business is going to succeeed in this new economy.  The Team has brought the system tool business out of the darkness into the open and made the profits available to everyone, not the people at the top...  There needs to be alignment on the Content/Commerce distributioin side as well...  Again, I wish this would not have happened, but knowing the truth about many things, it was going to happen eventually... this is not small... it will have HUGE ramifications for years to come...

 

Editor's Note: The entire IBOAI did not support the actions taken by the 15 IBOs who were terminated, which includes a lawsuit that threatens the entire Quixtar business and the announcement they are forming a competitive company.  The joint statement from the IBOAI board of directors, the North American Founders Council, and Quixtar indicate a unified front against these leaders and support for the actions taken by Quixtar. -- RL

KNP said:
August 15, 2007 11:40 AM | #

I for one believe Orrin & Chris have done what you would expect from high caliber leaders.  They worked with Q for years trying to make changes in several areas they felt were not in line with their vision and direction.  After the diplomatic channels failed (behind closed door politics and negotiation), what else could they do?.... they had to go to the next level.

So they filed the lawsuit, placed their specific complaints in the legal document, and have been quiet ever since.

The fire is being fueled by everyone else (including Alticor/Quixtar) adding their two cents with no factual info, simply opinions.

Which would you teach your kids - exhaust diplomatic channels then go to court if you have to (Woodward/Brady approach), or go out and trash talk on the Internet and through email (Quixtar's approach)?

Let's be adults... when you have two parties that don't want to do business together anymore, both should move on in their own direction and be free to do business as they see fit.

Quixtar - how about showing the world that you're capable of taking the high road!

Charles W. said:
August 15, 2007 11:47 AM | #

INHERITANCE / SUCCESSION to CHALLENGE!!

We have been a part of the business for some 10+ years and in all that time we were confident of this one thing, "The Corporation would always take the high road, whether accusing or being accused".

Not speaking to the legality of the circumstance but to the spirit of the conflict.

I would have never, in a MILLION years, believed a sanctioned spokesperson for the corporation would, and more disturbingly could post such a tabloid type blog entry.

Not withstanding fault or legal correctness, there arises the issue of excellence in business practices.  

One can not state that the end justifies the means or embrace the "They started it" principle as an reason or excuse for ones actions.

Regardless of the outcome, the corporation has been relegated to the level of just another company protecting their turf by the statements of those in authority.

It feels as though we are part of the latest political brouhaha.

The overwhelming spin-doctoring on behalf of the corporation is apparent, while it appears that TEAM has instructed its contingency not say anything disparaging about the corporation.

You have to ask yourself the question:

1. How many people in leadership positions in the corporation have actually built the business to at least the 4000 PV level?

2.  Do they know what it takes or means to build the business firsthand or is it only by proxy?

(As difficult and idealistic as it may sound, the leaders should be required to build the business to at least the 2500 PV level.  Then and only then can we be sure they know what it takes to be an IBO)

We see that only one of the founders is left.  He knows what it takes to build a business such as ours.

I can not say whether he is for or against the present actions, but as a father looking over a child, I have to believe that he would not have retaliated with the spirit displayed for all the world to see.

As a business transitions from one generation to another change is inevitable but the form, type and spirit of that change is not always desirable.

I have learned through the business that:

"When people of integrity speak that expect to be believed, and when they are not they let time prove them right!!!!"

Robert said:
August 15, 2007 12:06 PM | #

The Amway Sales and Marketing Plan ....when worked properly..can/does/will ...give anyone that chooses to work their butts off for 2/3 years a chance to create an incredable income.

Why is it that if people dont make it work for them they then feel they have to attack their sponsor..upline plat..upline emerald...diamond..and the name Amway in order to justify their failure. Just GO,join another network/mlm/ and take your moaning and bad mouthing to them when you fail there too.

The leaders??? that have just been kicked out of Quixtar brought it on themselves..so they need to clear off and take their great ideas into some other business and dont try and destroy the dreams and hopes of thousands of other I.B.Os.

robert said:
August 15, 2007 12:10 PM | #

WE just want to be able to work very hard to create a better lifestyle for our familys.through building the AMWAY business...   those poeple that have failed to do that should just go away ..try something else ..and let us get on with working towards our dreams and goals

Brad Obert said:
August 15, 2007 12:14 PM | #

Steve M.  Perhaps you could build an organization large enough to make 6 figures.  Then over a decade or two have the corporation slowly price their products higher and higher until noone can retail a thing.  Which date do you pick to decide to leave?  You say they can quit.  Well, which date do you pick to quit?   Especially when you have active ongoing communication and problem resolution by being a member of a so-called board designed to represent all IBO's.  

Hypothetically, let's say you build 10000 people.  After which they double the product prices.  Now what?  You talk as though there is no timeline.  

It is also obvious many here have NOT read the Team plaintiff lawsuit.  You can't read the first 3 pages and make a judgement call.  Funny how people think.

My last question?  When you go Crown, and Quixtar decides to terminate you, what are you going to do about it?   I'm sure walk away quietly. hehe

Brad

Wendy D. said:
August 15, 2007 12:16 PM | #

Interesting that this directive now is critical of something that was known to Quixtar. You sound as if you just discovered this "stacking" method of building. Has this ever been brought up as an issue before?

The timing of the directive is very interesting. I can see a bunch of harrasment coming for TEAM IBO's who build with TEAM approach. NO thank you. Sounds like you were trying to push us out. We already get harrassed about our paperwork and now you are building in a reason to harrass all of us whenever you want.  

LisBette said:
August 15, 2007 12:44 PM | #

Hey Fig, you said it well.  And J.E.M. good point.

I am a long-time member of TEAM, and I have been present for practically every TEAM teaching session directed at Platinums and above. Woodward and Brady have ALWAYS told us to register new IBOs in compliance with Quixtar rules. After Quixtar agreed to allow Team depth building, it was on condition that before we register a new IBO, he or she must meet their potential sponsor and both parties agree to the relationship.  This is confirmed by the BSMAA that is signed by both parties and sent in to Quixtar.

I am sure some IBOs have taken shortcuts in this--looking back, I think I have done so once or twice. Does that mean our leaders should be terminated? That would be like saying my driver's training instructor should lose his driver's license because I was caught speeding.

Second, and my bigger concern, is the changing of the rules themselves. Quixtar has the right to make the rules whatever they want. But what is alarming is when the rules are changed without the consent of the IBOAI, and when they are changed so drastically.

For just one example, when I first started in the business, there was no non-compete clause in the Business Compendium.  Now there is. Shame on me for not reading the updated version every year at renewal. But even if I did read it, do I walk away from the business I built for five or ten years because some contract language has changed?

The problem here is that the rules are arbitrary. Apparently no consideration is given to the terms an IBO originally agreed to. So although I think I'm building a secure business because the corporation has been around for almost fifty years, in fact there is no security at all.

Ken Eide said:
August 15, 2007 1:06 PM | #

I have built the business under Amway Corp to the Pearl level and had a large Profit Sharing organization in the eighties. My LOS (Line of Sponsorship) was the only way I learned how to build the business and they alone provided the support to do so. I am building the business again under Quixtar. I joined Quixtar for the following reasons: 1) no product handling now; 2) no bonus payment responsibilities; and 3) new business model and reputation. I believe the Amway reputation has received a bad rap, but the fact of the matter is -- the bad reputation exists. Again, in building the Quixtar business, my LOS has been the key to understanding and building the business. Amway / Quixtar has always left the training and mentoring of the new IBO up to the LOS. Amway / Quixtar have never taken responsibility for IBO business growth.

Since Amway / Quixtar opened their business doors, three trends have changed the business climate -- drastically changing the business environment: 1) Technology in the form of computers and the Internet; 2) Distribution methodology; and 3) Franchising model. Unless businesses are quick enough to recognize change and adjust to it, they will be left behind.

I believe The Team has done a great job realizing the importance of change as well as recognizing it takes leadership qualities to be a successful IBO. The product lines exist here with great products. But unless an IBO gets the right information to incorporate the right thinking so as to be able to leverage the changing business climate, that IBO will become frustrated and quit. Many of you reading this, and maybe all of you, can identify with this.

Amway / Quixtar (Alticor) business goal is to make a profit. That's why businesses exist. They are not in business to take care of IBOs. IBOs are simply their marketing arm to sell products. The corporation can only make a profit when products are sold and consumed. The corporation really doesn't care if IBO's consume them or products get retailed, as long as the product is sold and consumed. To the corporation, IBOs are consumers, because they buy and consume the product. "In fact, a 2006 report prepared by Quixtar states that only 3.4% of its total volume comes from those who do not participate in Quixtar's compensation plan." (quote taken from Plaintiff Complaint; p13) So I guess we IBOs, are the consumers, maybe not the business owners we perceive ourselves to be!!

In business, there is always more at stake than what meets the eye. I can understand why Amway / Quixtar would want to stifle the way The Team is building depth, because it reduces the product profitability to the corporation by as much as 46% on a new Silver organization. The total Bonus compensation paid on a Silver organization is the same whether developed under the "6-4-2" plan or the "Team depth" plan. However, the actual product profit is less in the "Team depth" plan because more IBOs within the organization are able to buy at a larger discount level because of the Bonus compensation plan. So the corporation would see that lower profitability as a loss to them (as much as 46% difference). This becomes sizeable when more and more IBOs are building and growing their businesses successfully. The corporation then, sees this as detrimental to their business profitability model. The corporation, after allowing The Team's business model to exist for over 7 years, now would really like to get that profitability back, since the buy-in from other quality leaders who have been past Presidents of the IBOAI; and which have swelled the number of IBOs growing successful business utilizing this business model. Since pricing is such and issue (only 3.4% of sales volume outside of IBOs), being able to access a better discount on personal purchases have been a very positive element to those building their businesses, especially new IBOs. Since The Team has been the leading business growth leader for 7 years in a row -- this all speaks volumes when you start connecting the dots.

From a business perspective, I understand Amway / Quixtar limited role in training and directing IBOs. There is a fine line as to what constitutes Independent Contractor status versus Employee status. Amway / Quixtar has been able to wield the tremendous marketing arm of IBOs without having to pay salaries, travel expenses, office expenses, insurance expenses, Social Security Tax and Withholding Tax. All the corporation has to do is pay bonueses based on product sales volume. The corporation has locked the IBO into an agreement that includes a non-compete clause. And the IBO pays an IBO renewal fee every year to help offset the corporation's tracking expense. When you think about it, if there is at least 500,000 IBOs, that roughly translates into an income of $25,000,000. That pays for a lot of office help.

My understanding, which is definitely limited, of this situation regarding the litigation, is that there is no demand for money involved. It is basically asking for either lower pricing so that IBOs can be competitive or a time period that allows an IBO to make a choice of staying with Amway / Quixtar or leaving without fear of the non-compete clause being exercised against them by the corporation. Since the IBO is basically a consumer to Amway / Quixtar, how could the latter be an issue?? Because the average monthly purchase across the board for an IBO is under $50, I would think it would behoove the corporation to "cleanse" it's ranks of IBOs not happy with their situation and keep a low public relations profile; and build the new "Transformation" they are excited about. By not doing this, the corporation is harming all IBO businesses, by trying to put a spin on what's happening and not happening. Time will be the true judge!!

otherwiseinformed said:
August 15, 2007 1:19 PM | #

Ok Team members...wake up.  There is stacking and has been.  As members of my part of Team, before sponsoring anyone new we had to "call our upline platinum" to find out where to put the person/couple.  They were strategically placed.  If you were fairly new, under a year in the business, and you "accidentally" sponsored someone in width, the upline platinum would call the corporation to have that person moving to a place down deep in a tap root, sometimes 15-30 people away from you!  That is what was against the rules!  Not saying corporation is right here because there are valid pricing concerns, but to say that Team was an innocent bystander here is a stretch!  Take it from someone who dared to get a refund on seminar tickets and was told "no".

darryll said:
August 15, 2007 1:25 PM | #

isnt this what some of the other groups are doing like marker man or is that part of the team

Cory said:
August 15, 2007 1:37 PM | #

In response to "New to both organizations":

I can tell you that I've been a TEAM IBO since May 2007 and everything that Quixtar has implied was true to my experience.

- I was not told about Quixtar

- I was told stacking was the only way new IBO's were signed and I was told I couldn't have my own "leg" until i had a good grasp on the system (which i was told usually takes a year).  Specifically, the following illustration was used to show me my "spot"

--------O

---------O

----------O

-----------O

------------O

-------------O <- this person wasn't even present

--------------O <- this is your spot

---------------O <- don't know these people

----------------O

-----------------O

------------------O

-------------------O

- Told me that I could make money within a few months (specifically mentioned how Marks made 6 figures in 31)

- When I got my package from Quixtar, i questioned the relationship and I was told that they were just a supplier and TEAM was independent.

---

Now, those are all things that don't surprise me and I'm not mad about either, I kind of figured it out on my own.  TEAM is still feeding off the ignorance of the new IBO's and they are selling them a promise that just doesn't hold true for most.

However,  I would have to strongly agree that Quixtar is promoting an improved efficient system of distribution but refuse to make the products cost effective.  In fact, most products after the 25% discount are still more expensive than what can be obtained locally.

In regards to the complaint filed, you can't tell me that TEAM wasn't aware of all of this from day one.  The fact that they are just now trying to use these items to get what they want (the ability to approach and persuade current IBO's to transfer) is a joke and shows how they are only interested in securing their financial situations.

Sad and confused said:
August 15, 2007 2:39 PM | #

Here's why they would hold people to a contract... BECAUSE IT'S A CONTRACT.   You are bound by it if you agree to it.  Oh wait... you didn't agree to it.... maybe that's because it was glossed over along with BSMAA.  As my platinum told me... that's just legal mumbo jumbo, don't worry about it.

Steve Y said:
August 15, 2007 3:08 PM | #

I've seen a few posts stating that TEAM had the most growth for the last 7 or 8 years within all the Quixtar teams...does anyone have any proof of that?  I'm inclinded not to believe it or the leaders of TEAM would be bigger pins...and we've also been told at our functions that our group has outgrown all the others every time it's mentioned.  Can we get some stats from the Corporation with a ranking and percent growth over the last 5-7 years?

Thanks.

JOHN said:
August 15, 2007 3:35 PM | #

There are going to be alot of opinions and quite frankly all of this bickering doesnt really matter.  

ALTICOR IS GOING TO DO WHAT THEY WANT REGARDLESS!!

The bottom line is you and I (IBO's) will never control the supplier, therefore we are never really free to conduct our business.  If your supplier is overpriced you find another.  Simple as that.  Anytime Q/A wants to change the deal, they can. Apparently the IBOAI is powerless and quiet frankly the corporate people dont seem to really care about hearing what is in the best interests of the people anyway.  The people are the true magic of this business.   Take a survey Alticor.. there is a reason that the majority dislike Amway.  I personally love the company and love the heritage that they stood for.  But history is history.. wayward unethical distributors of the past ruined that for the rest of us.  Amway is a wonderful company.  The reputation from the past isnt.  DUMB MOVE.

TEAM has figured out a better way to build teams.  Legally, morally and ethically.  True, there are people who have "stacked" and that is unfortunate.  But the point is to team build correctly.  They are the most successfull in Q in its history.  TAKE SOME NOTES!!  

I have news for you Q/A.. the Amway school of business is old school, and if you ignore the rules of the new age, wealth will ignore you.  If you dont like change, you better get comfortable with irrelevance.

Team works when done correctly.  They have the best system.  The best tools.  The best leaders.  The most committed organization and quite frankly, you all irritated the wrong crowd.  I have been an IBO for 14 years and have a huge team.  Our loyaltys are to our leaders who love us and help us.  Not to a supplier who doesnt even care about what we think.

It saddens me to beleive that this is where we all split.  But similar to the fact that I wouldent keep a friend who was stealing money from my desk when I wasnt looking, I saddly cant keep you when your stealing my oppertunity to be competitive.

~A HAPPY HONEST, ETHICAL TEAM MEMBER..  FOREVER

Perry Abernathy said:
August 15, 2007 4:26 PM | #

Please stop the mud slinging. When you point a finger at someone three are pointing back.

I know people that personaly know Rich and Jay and they never said anything bad about Rich, Jay or their children. Billy Florence's son Rich is named after Rich. I wish that this had not happened.

Quixtar please remember; all IBOs are independent, each person made the choise to join you because another IBO showed Them This Business.

Joe said:
August 15, 2007 5:07 PM | #

Joe in pennsylvania. Who are the "Current" IBO board members? Was the IBO board consulted about all these new changes in advance, or merely informed? What is the role of the IBO board in the future? What is the "Jay" rule in setting prices? Why has the  $ expenditures for P.V. required for Bonus money gone through the roof in the past 5 years? When are we going to get "Price relief"? we cannot hve "Tiffany" prices in a Wal-mart world! We need change now or follow the path of the Dinosaures to extinction! Just track Quixtar sales for the past 5 years for proof! we have brought over 1,000 New Ibos's avg. per day to Quixtars door step...Why do they not Buy or stick? Anxious to hear your respones?

ken shinn said:
August 15, 2007 5:47 PM | #

i built amway to 4000 I don't want a cookie for doing that --my cookie crumbled because of lack of depth--I want to sell cookies-quixtar cookies are too high--release me so I can sell better cookies at a better price-

Thank you Rich let me go please-- let me compete and I will make you better too--

quixtar's problem is there is no compettition to make them better---Compassionate Capitalism--Rich Devos

JBR said:
August 15, 2007 5:54 PM | #

Mr. Krause own definition of "stacking" above is certainly NOT what the Team was teaching in anything that I have seen or heard from them and their training materials.  So, based on my personal knowledge which is not all inclusive, the Corporation's claims are without merit.  Does that mean that no one associated with the Team was guilty?  Certainly not.  But then every Amway/Quixtar organization I have seen has violations at some level of some form of the Corporation's rules.

At this point, it would be in the Corporation's best interest, and the best interest of all IBO's, if the Corporation would go ahead and release details of what they are planning in the way of major changes in how the business is going to be run.  Keeping all of this secret means that everyone's sponsoring is fundamentally on hold.  It escapes me how anyone could, in good faith, present this "opportunity" to anyone else when there are so many unknowns.

If nothing else, even if they turn out to be right, the Company has damaged their reputation and professional credibility.  The way that this is being handled is unprofessional and highly detrimental to the business of each and every IBO.

HSW said:
August 15, 2007 6:51 PM | #

Let's talk about the depth issue and it's profitabilaty for QUIXTAR.

The Team is building depth in such a massive way that it reduces the product profitability to the corporation by as much as 46% on a new Silver organization. The total Bonus compensation paid on a Silver organization is the same whether it is developed under the “6-4-2″ plan or the “Team depth” plan. However, the actual product profit is less in the “Team depth” approach.

More rewards are given to more people reaching higher % brackets and there goes the profitability for QUIXTAR.

The corporation has to face this loss. This becomes sizeable when more and more IBOs are building and growing their businesses successfully by the TEAM model. It becomes a massive threat.

The current Quixtar SA 4400 states the following:

“The average monthly gross income for active IBOs was $115. Approximately 66% of all Ibos of record were found to be active”.

Question:

How does that compare to IBOs on TEAM and TEAM affiliated organizations. The average monthly

PV per IBO on TEAM is quite higher (according to my information)than in other organizations.

Final comment:

With TEAM you are willing to step back in profitabilaty to help others gain. The payback will be a community that will last. Everybody wins. Long term.

Jimmy D. said:
August 15, 2007 7:57 PM | #

Why do so many of you keep comparing our pricing to Wal-Mart?  Seriously, have you never compared our QUALITY to theirs?  It's like comparing a Yugo to a Porsche, for goodness sake.  I've got nothing against Wal-Mart.  They're an American icon, but you're mixing apples and oranges when you put them in the same sentence.  Plus, you're completely missing the point of what makes our business so incredible:  the positive, lifelong relationships we build based on mutual trust and support.  To think anyone could build a lifelong business with a frontline you don't even know is ludicrous!  You want to tell me that some retail store's OTC brand of vitamins or shampoo even comes close to Nutrilite or Satinique?  You want to tell me their quality even REMOTELY compares to ours?  Honestly, you may as well gripe to the Mercedes dealers because they won't sell cars at a loss.  Let's be realistic here, everyone.  The reason our business has been around for soooo many decades is because it's built on the faith we all have in each other.  I trust my upline and my downline trust me because we sacrifice our time and energy to help each other build successful business teams.  I am very proud of how the corporation is weeding out groups who jeapordize the entire industry.  If Amway ever had a bad rap it's only because people were too lazy to do the work (product pickup and distro, etc.) it took to build it back then.  If people want to say that Quixtar doesn't work it's only because they're too afraid to face the possibility of rejection from people who couldn't build this business anyway.  Get a backbone!  People out there are desperate for an opportunity!!  Our corporation has the most incredible track record and represents a concept that our grandparents could only dream about.  I, for one, am in it for life.  

pedro said:
August 15, 2007 9:49 PM | #

They got fired? How can a business owner, an IBO, be terminated from his own business? Especially on the terms of stacking and not mentioning the Quixtar name? There are two types of people out there, concerning the Quixtar name, those who have never heard of the business and those who don't want to hear it. But everyone wants to be "FREE" right? So every upline and IBO I have ever seen show the plan focuses on the people they are presenting it to and what the people want to accomplish. They never blantantly mention or say, "this is Quixtar a multilevel marketing business", because of the fear of the misconceptions that people might have. I see nothing wrong with this. It's like a parent giving a child Braniums, which are chewy and taste good, because kids have the misconception that vitamins are "yucky". As far as stacking goes, I think you're B.S.ing us about the difference between that and depth-building. Do you seriously mean to tell us that the only difference between the two is whether or not the sponsor knows and maintains a relationship with the new IBO? YOU HEARD IT FOLKS, DON'T GO SPONSORING ANYBODY YOU DON'T KNOW AND DON'T LET YOUR DOWNLINE DO IT EITHER. ONCE YOUR CONTACT LISTS ARE EXAUSTED YOU MIGHT AS WELL QUIT BECAUSE IF YOU SPONSOR A STRANGER YOU'LL GET FIRED! Come on! Folks what happens when you sponsor a new IBO? Do you get compensated? No, but Quixtar does. That's where they make their money. That's where the newest IBO gets ripped off first! That's where a bad reputation and complaints come from. You only get paid when you have enough people under you, whether you know them or not, that are buying products. And with the product prices being so high- which is the second place the newest IBO is ripped off- you need to use a method that sponsors many IBOs quickly, i.e. stacking, so that you can actually make some  income in this thing. And with such a high volume of new people getting into the business you can only imagine the number of people getting ripped off and also the amount of complaints being generated, thus hurting the reputation of the business. Even though this may be the only way that you can create any realistic income, what does Quixtar care? After all, the more money that you make, the less money that they make. This business is everyone for themselves! Quit living in a fantasy and join the rest of the world in living for yourself. That's the only way to money in this world and don't you forget it! If you want to own a business, go start one that only you can fire yourself from. Because quite frankly, you don't have any ownership in this. The Devos's and VanAndle's are the only one's who have ownership in this at all. Do you want to tell me that neither of those guys have ever wronged someone in this business. Why don't the IBOs fire them? Oh yeah, cause they don't own sh*t! If you do what they consider "out of line or conduct" you can get canned just like many others before you. At least a job won't make you pay them to get started, or cut you off from the rest of the free world by having you buy the products that they make. I like the fact that if I work 40 hours I get paid for 40 hours. In this business you might work for 60 and get paid for 10. At least at first, until you meet other people-not strangers- that want to do the same. But come on, who would want to do the same?

ken shinn said:
August 15, 2007 10:42 PM | #

Stacking or depth building does not matter negatively if you have an upline mentor.  In the 90-'ssomone in my upline placed a distributor who lived fifteen minutes away under me in Amway who had a brother that was a professor in another emerging country.  I did not know the person and his brother I never met.  The brother in Brazil stayed in and my downline that I got to know bought product for 8 years because he hoped that one day he could reap some reward from his downline.  The company made money off of this couple who consistently did 200 personal pv per month.  They even bought the expenxive pet food.  My point is that volume was generated and I offered to helop them any time with sponsoring and did meet them to take them products.  If they would have quit like 90 plus of my downline that did not have enough depth--no volume would have been created.  Another point is my upline quit all the way to my non-active Emerald.  When my immediate upline quit and another sponsor linked to me for awhile, I did not know that person, but they had a vested interest in getting to know me since I was building the business.  The stacking and depth building is a moot point.  It holds no water.  When quixtar referred a new ibo to someone who inquires about joining, they give them someone geographically in the area to sponsor them.  They are in essence promoting so-called stacking with someone they do not know!  The integrity that I have checked out by The leaders of team is unmatched in the business world.  You blog folks trying to tear down their names do not understand that their outstanding reputations got them on the iboai board and they tried to push through changes that would better the ecommerce trend that not enough of america's ibos were getting to capitalize on due to the holes in Q/A.

Amanda Christianson said:
August 15, 2007 11:06 PM | #

Quixtar,  I am disappointed in you for not letting the Team leaders leave quietly.  All this bad press hurts the Quixtar IBO's who want to build something valuable for their families and serving you in the process-- by bringing more volume to your company.     Why would all those multi-millioniars just give up their businesses for no reason and then have to go to Federal Court to be released?    The names of the men who are on the lawsuit are huge leaders in this industry.     With the integrity of men like Florence and Haugen,  long time leaders in the industry,  something big is going on.    

Quixtar has been an industry dedicated to excellent costumer service and quality stuff for us.    In my opinion Quixtar has some of the best phone service to us product buyers I've ever experienced.  I wish the same excellence would have been extended to the IBO's who wish to leave and let them go quietly as to not distrub the businesses of those building their business the "original quixtar way".     When I signed up with Quixtar I was told that this was my business and I could build it anyway I chose to.   That I could build width and be profitable fast,  but statictics show it's very unstable and likely to fade away,  or I could put everyone I sponsor in one leg to create stability and give value to everyone's business.    I chose depth for my business and the results were worth the wait!  

The company would be wise to listen to the IBO's who are accually building this business in the livingrooms of this country.    Some people are not conserned with price, however,  most poeple are.      

 

Editor's Note:  We would let Team's leaders leave quietly. They're the ones who filed a lawsuit against the company that required response. Our own dispute resolution process would have kept this very quiet.  -- RL

Greg said:
August 15, 2007 11:30 PM | #

Joe,

Many new ibo's dont' buy or stick because they have spent most of their money on tools. When new ibo's look long term at the money and time commitment  of a system they eventually decide it's not worth it and quit. They don't continue to buy products because  they are upset about how they have been misled. There's your biggest problem Joe.

I've had no trouble getting former system ibo's back on products once I tell them there are no strings attached. No meetings, no cd's, no functions. Just products with great service! NO problem. There is life after systems.  Lets face it, systems are the dinosaur of this industry. If A/Q is to survive we need total company support fast.  

Because of the internet and blogs, most everyone now knows where the negative reputation of our business has come from. In the UK, China, Russia, India, US and other countries where there have been problems with gov regulations and ibo complaints, the root cause has ALWAYS, EVERYTIME, been system abuse and deception.  And everytime it was the huge resources of A/Q, not some pompous, arrogant system king pin, that has saved our business from extinction.

When our back is against the wall, it is always Amway to the rescue. The people that pay should be the people that have the say in our future. How many past board member are not in the business or have been terminated. These people should never have been in a position where they could have an impact on our future!

Finally, I hope prices are a little more in line with the coming transformation, but new prices without eliminating the system behavior that caused out bad reputation will not change anything.

We need one system... the Amway system!

To Bad for Everyone! said:
August 15, 2007 11:44 PM | #

I just find it ironic that Robin picks and chooses which posts she will answer!  I have viewed posts from both sides with valid questions, yet they are unanswered.  

Can't anybody really see through this?  Even without all the facts!  Unless I was present in that room I will never know the entire truth as to what happened.  There is always 2 sides!  

I just think it is pathetic in the way Q or A or whatever you want to call it has responded.

Robin, I would like to hear your answers on some of these great questions other than the ones that have made mention of you or Jim.

I have been in the Team for 4 years this month.  I'm not taking any side.  I just want to know where my future lies.  Because of Q/A's behavior I do not want to stay in this business.  Until I know the truth about TEAM (which only time will tell) I won't follow them.  However, I SHOULD be able to have a right to be a part of a different company and not be bound to a non-compete clause!!!!!  Especially after the behavior I have seen from its own employees!!!!  What a shame and a disgrace.  If Q/A really put IBO's first they would allow all of us to leave if it be our choice to go anywhere (whether another company or with TEAM) after this disgracing event.

Lets just say Q/A is in the right.  Should I still have to stay with a company that has no integrity or ethics after reading the blogs and their comments!!!  And if Q/A tells me yes you have to stay, WHY!!!!  You changed my mind in the way you have behaved!!!  I cannot believe your attorneys would allow you to speak on this issue the way you have and believe it would not hurt your case!!

Just for the record, all this garbage on stacking is nuts!  I have always been told to follow the rules.  I have never heard anyone in this business whether my upline, an open meeting, seminar, whatever tell me to disregard the rules and build depth as stacking.  The opposite has always taken place.  If IBO's cannot see the trumped up charges on stacking, I feel sorry for you.  And to be fair, I can't believe that I am supposed to believe that the TEAM just now figured out Q/A was a pyramid.

The only post I truly BELIEVE and AGREE with are the ones that say the IBO's at the bottom are the ones who are hurt the most.

I hope and pray everyone will be successful in their future business no matter where they chose to perform.  We build a business for our family's financial security!!!  There is no security in the corporate world anymore.

As for Q/A:  Let people have a choice in leaving or staying.  You just may be surprised at how many stay and how many leave and not go with the TEAM.  Also, why would you coerce people in staying in your business?  Doesn't make sense.  They are not going to be profitable to you anyways.  Oh wait, I know it is their punishment to their children's financial future:  If your not going to make me profitable then I'll be darned if I'm going to let you earn an income to feed your children for six months!!! I'll show you!!!!

I think its sad!!!

 

Editor's Note:  Regarding my responses to various posts, I provide "quick" responses to some of the issues I can, and I hope where people are reading them they will apply those same quick responses to their similar questions. I've prompted other questions to be answered through new blog posts. And others are on the list of questions for which we need to provide the appropriate answer. Please also understand that there won't be willy-nilly answering of questions with "I think" as the lead-off comment.  In the end, I and other bloggers here are agents of the company and everything we say could become evidence in the class action lawsuit. Most of the comments in here by others, however, whether they are backed by facts, reflect personal opinions, or simply restate the comments provided by Team's leaders, do not pose any risk to those making them. Thank you for your patience as we try to address all of your issues with the facts.  --  RL

Stacey Lane said:
August 16, 2007 12:47 AM | #

This whole situation sickens me.  Over the last 6 years, I have put over $100,000 in buying Quixtar products and probably haven't even received 10% back.  I have put at least $50,000+ into the "systems" side of the business (not TEAM system) and have never received a dime.  I have put 5-6 days a week into the business with the idea it would really work for me.  I believed in both Quixtar and the "system".   The "system" was a lifesaver for me and I am prepared to stay with the "system" side of the business if I am permitted.  Learning to be the best you can be is a good thing.  However, I have chosen not to stay with Quixtar because of their searing, scathing letters against some of their IBOAI members.

Before reading those, I never had any intention of leaving the Corporation, even if it had gone back to Amway.  It is totally against what I was taught by my upline.  We were taught to NEVER EVER talk trash about the Corporation, our upline, or downline, that this was a business of integrity.  Now I have questioned everyone, the Corporation for their disparaging letters about some of their former IBO's or my Upline that said this was a business of integrity.  I am sure concerned about who has integrity now.  I think it's in the best interest of my family and the Corporation's for me to walk away silently and wish the best for both Quitar?Amway and TEAM.  Good luck and best wishes for all concerned.

Philippe said:
August 16, 2007 2:26 AM | #

As a Legacy and TEAM member it saddens me to read the ... hurtful statements by (assumed?) representatives of Quixtar/Alticor/etc.   I find that some of the "official?" statements  are  missing some ... facts?  I embarrassed by it all.

Team training has always been to be Moral, Legal,  Ethical and Honest in all dealings.  

  While the Corporate/Quixtar product prices ARE to high, and increasing.

While one side has NOT make slanderous statements,  The other side repeatedly has.   It's a sad state when "Titans Clash"

I think it as an InterNET tape where I learned about "Branding".   Lexus brand was created because who would but an expensive Luxury Car from Toyota (at that time)?  Neither would anyone else.

Other examples are Old Navy,  and others I forget.

Amway is an OLD brand name - with a long history, good and bad.   Reverting to this name  goes against Good Business Principles. ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand

I'm sadden.

GC., CALIFORNIA said:
August 16, 2007 3:30 AM | #

First of all,  I see a lot of complaints about the price of products.  Having been successful in a commercial sales career for many years I can say that trying to sell on low price is ridiculous- you must sell value, not low price! The products we purchase at Quixtar for our family are higher quality than the grocery stores and if you focus on the benefits vs. cost then it makes sense(concentration, cost per use, environmental impact, etc...)  Why is a Kia cheaper than a Toyota?  (Built better, better warranties, better performance, more luxurious, better resale value, and more dependable).  IF YOU WANT TO SELL, then PROMOTE  value, not price!! If the product is too cheap then profit is minor, no-one will buy it- and so is P.V.  Why is it not o.k. for Quixtar to make a lot of money?  By creating a select client base that cares about quality, you establish loyalty, and you keep your profit margins high!  Everyone knows a few people that are not bargain basement/99 cent store shoppers.  People I talk to say they have no problem with the cost of a can of XS, even at $2.00.  Right now IBO cost for XS is about .30 cents less per can than the stores where that type of drink is sold.    Quixtar products may not be for everyone.  For example, Aveda is a premium product line that is higher priced than Satinique; not necessarily better, and they sell ALOT OF PRODUCT. But it's not for everybody!  Some people prefer to go down to Wal-Mart and get some  cheap shampoo for $2-$3 and it's cheap quality and they are not our customer! By the way, we do not live in a "Wal-Mart World"!  Not everyone shops there!  In the same way not everyone is right for our business and thats O.K. too.  

2nd-  There seems to be alot of concern about the transition back to AMWAY.  Look, lets be honest and truthful. Truth always prevails.  People who register as new IBO's are going to find out anyways, and when they do, as long as they have a relationship with their sponsor/organzation it does not matter, and you should believe in what you are doing.  We are not promoting this business so people can be in Amway- it's about the dream to achieve.  It would be better to focus energies on building a business than worring  How many thousands of people are joining the Amway business in Mexico, etc...?? How many Diamonds are there who have businesses in both the U.S. and Mexico??  Why are we not concerned about Mexican perceptions of Amway, and the business continues to grow well there?? There's nothing worse than confusion and Alticor needs to rightly so have a unified front worldwide with a common unified vision for growth.  Stop bashing the Corporation- they gave you an opportunity to create something great by taking away the barriers to owning your own business and there have been dynasties created (even internationally) long before Quixtar or the TEAM even existed!!  If that's the case, then people like the leaders in TEAM DO NOT HAVE A CORNER ON THIS BUSINESS.  The period of growth most significant was with Amway and THAT LEADERSHIP.  It seems odd that a few millionaires think they can tell some billionaires how to do business better.  

Frustrated IBO said:
August 16, 2007 3:41 AM | #

When I look at the performance of the corporation Quixtar/Amway - this is the corporation that I was supposed to be able to trust to leave a business to my children - to leave a legacy.  

This is not the kind of legacy that I would ever want my children to be associated with.  I tried very hard to raise my family with truth, trust and personal integrity as thier touch stone.  

This company is not truthful when we are notified by the media that the corporation is changing it's name and ungoing significant transformations, all without the any meaningful input from the IBOIA board.

How can I every trust a company that changes a contract from what was originally signed - and now expects us to honor these contracts.  The simple act of automatic renewal made it pretty much a guarantee that no one would look over the contracts on an annual basis - because they trusted the company.

When the original contracts where signed there was nothing about not owning another multi-level business that I was every aware of.  

In 1999 Amway was changed to Quixtar for a reason.  The educated North American population understood that the business plan was a winner - the name association with Amway was not.  

The change occured to Quixtar and the association was explained to each new individual entering into the business.  That created success.  Now how do we explain, that instead of being a sister company - the corporation has decided to take back and rebox the company back to Amway.  

Apparently the reason for the return of the Amway name is based on the global communities who have only access to Amway and are finding it difficult to explain the sister companies in the global market.

It would appear that the North Americans have outlived thier usefullness and the Corporation has decided to move on.

This leaves me very upset and sad with a feeling of total betrayal.  This is not about TEAM or depth building, this is about profit and power.  No matter which side of the debate you are on TEAM or QUIXTAR it all comes back down to the basics.

Quixtar has failed this basic test of leadership.  Quixtar has refused to move forward to meet the next generation of business - and more importantly Quixtar has just proved to the world that the company connot be trusted to honor existing contracts or negotiate in a meaningful manner with any Independant Business Owner with whom they hold a contract.

As so many individual business owners have stated - if you don't like the integrity of the company - then quit.  Financially I am in a position to do that and will - but that is not true for many indvidual IBO's who will try to fight thier way thru so they can have a little extra cash at the end of the month.  Or what about the IBO's who have built large business operations that the company has just betrayed - then it becomes a matter of power and money for them - are they willing to give up the money and the power or are they going to hold Quixtar accountable for it's actions?

GC., CALIFORNIA said:
August 16, 2007 4:47 AM | #

There's been a lot of talk about product price, and if you think about it, better quality = higher cost.  The world does not revolve around Wal-Mart.  There are a lot of people in this country that want better quality.  Why is Kia cheaper than Toyota? Second, Why do a couple of millionaires think they can tell some billionaires how to be successful? Amway produced more millionaires way before the TEAM or Quixtar even existed so they don't have the corner on success.  Why is Amway growing in Mexico and producing Diamonds who by the way are proud of it? When IBO's register they find out eventually that Amway is a part of the business and if the relationship is good they do not have a problem with it.  So tell the truth and be proud of what you have.

PLC said:
August 16, 2007 4:57 AM | #

Everybody thinks you have to compete on price- the products are not for everyone!  There are products available that are higher priced than say, Satinique and there are products cheaper.  If you want to sell then sell value, not low price!  Some people do not care about quality and will just buy anything that comes along.  That is not our customer.  You will have commitment long-term to quality over cheap low performing products anyday.

long gone said:
August 16, 2007 11:22 AM | #

Give me a "BREAK" FRUSTRATED IBO!! Your statement below shows how little you know about the Amway Corporation. I certainly don't agree with what is happening and the poorly written blogs from Amway, however Amway is why I've lasted 24 years. It is because of the actions/lies/religious ideology pushed from many of the IBO's that I am not endorsing the business any longer. Amway did not create all of the bad PR, many of you all did. Just look at the Dateline story. Yes it did not give complete information, however those IBO's LIED and caused embarrassment for all of us who have ethics. Now QUIXTAR has the same bad reputation as Amway. GHEE, I wonder why...I'm DONE!!

In 1999 Amway was changed to Quixtar for a reason.  The educated North American population understood that the business plan was a winner - the name association with Amway was not.

michael kelly said:
August 16, 2007 12:55 PM | #

as part of Legacy and subsequently part of TEAM, I have to say...YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!! Part of the reason that I strive to build this business is that it lasts, it can never be taken away, guess not. This shakes my belief in this biz to the core. And changing back to Amway, are for real, that is enough to make me walk. My loyalty is to Haugen and Wilson, where they go, I go. I have never spoken to anyone at Q/Amway, they have never helped me when I was getting no after no. Not good. Right now, it's wait and see but this smells.

Daniel A. O'Brien said:
August 16, 2007 1:05 PM | #

I just read your memo on "stacking", and your requirements regarding knowing your immediate upline sponsor.  I'm confident that the TEAM leaders did not resign and file a lawsuit against Amway because of this policy which Amway alleges is being violated by TEAM.  I don't have any problem with that rule.  I don't think the TEAM leaders really did either.  Anyone who gives credence to Amway's supposedly "interesting" observation about the timing of this is a moron!

And BRAVO to the blogger above who noted the contradiction between Amway's blog articles and its "comments policy".  

Go, TEAM, go!!!

Jeffrey said:
August 16, 2007 2:34 PM | #

Has anyone noticed that nearly every Diamond IBO that has either left, quit, or got terminated was in the Yager organization? When Dex made his very first tape way back in the 70's is when this thing should have been stopped. All Amway would have needed to say is, "You can't make and market training materials to your group because there is no end retail consumer and that makes it an illegal pyramid. We'll kick you out if you don't stop." They STILL need to say it.

As far as price goes, do some cost comparisons with your local store. I would suggest SA8 powder, Pursue Disinfectant Cleaner (not only cost, but performance), any Formucare product, and of the LOC Plus concentrated products, even our roll-on deodorant costs less per ounce than some Brand-X products because they use smaller containers. Yes, even compare XS. It goes head-to-head on price with the competition. But if you want to know how XS rams the competition into the ground, click on the nutritional info comparison chart on the website. Nobody else has 4900% of B-12 in their energy drink and nobody ever will.

I say to all IBOs that want to pay Wal-Mart prices: quit doing this and go to work for them. Why, you'll even get their employee discount. Then when you're 116 years old and still working, think about it. Was getting cheap products a good deal, or was building a legacy a better deal?

The market for the products is only about 20% of the population that is looking for quality. It's even less for the business opportunity: about 5%. Quit trying to mass market this thing.

Kim said:
August 16, 2007 3:04 PM | #

Could someone please comment on this statement "Since The Team has been the leading business growth leader for 7 years in a row " I have seen a lot of team deffenders use this statement but want to know if it is true. I know that they haven't even been close to the top on PV/BV so how can they be the leader in growth?

Janine Dirkson said:
August 16, 2007 3:27 PM | #

"The Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan is a multilevel plan – people make money from selling product personally and from the sales of product by those they sponsor. "

What a load of crap!!!

Quixtar knows it products are priced to high they cannot be sold and yet it continues to recruit distributors in a concerted effort to enrich the founding families at the expense of the rank and file simply trying to earn a living. Quixtar holds its out as a legitimate, multi-level home-based business opportunity, but in fact operates as an illegal pyramid recruitment scheme.

Since the products are unmarketable to those not participating in Quixtar's comp plan, the sole way to make money, is for an IBO to continually recruit new distributors who are also willing to buy and self-consume, or discard, the Quixtar products. This fact alone renders Quixtar a classic recruitment pyramid scheme.

Alyssa said:
August 16, 2007 3:40 PM | #

First of all, People go invest your time in your own businesses and developing yourself & your own downline instead of minding someone else's business and blogging about it.  

Quixtar gave TEAM an opportunity, they are not entitled to anything.  People with that entitlement mentality should go live in a socialist country, not in a free enterprise system!  Then maybe they will learn to appreciate freedom and abide by some simple rules.  TEAM is acting like a Union, and Quixtar doesn't have to negotiate.  

The world is changing rapidly every day, especially with technology.  This internet biz is not the same Amway that is was 50 years ago!  I am so sick of people holding on to the name Amway.  The only thing good about it I see is Am-way stood for American Way.  Free Enterprise system is American Way.  Fighting for family's freedom is American way.  I don't see why it matters what the name of the company is.  What all IBO's should be concerned about is Themselves, Inc.!!!  IBO's sponsor people, not Quixtar or Amway.  If you have integrity and trust, if you are loyal to your own products and not shopping at Wal-mart, then you will build a strong and profitable business.  PERIOD!!  

Why do so many people get caught up in price?  If you are paying out more money for your products and tools than you are making in this business, the only person to blame is you.  For one, you have the same opportunity as ridiculously successful people in biz, for two, if you owned a traditional biz with the same type of payoff...how much would you have to invest into it?  More than just changing where you buy your toilet paper, makeup, and energy drinks that's for sure!

If you treat your IBO# like a million dollar biz, that's what it will pay you!  If you treat it like a hobby, that's what it will pay you!  

YankeeIBO said:
August 16, 2007 3:50 PM | #

NON-COMPETE AGREEMENTS

Non-compete agreements are standard practice in the US in any industry where selling is involved, and ESPECIALLY in businesses where the relationship the salesperson has with the customer is a key factor in the business. This keeps sales reps who leave from taking all their business with them--business built with the company's resources and products and processes, not theirs. It protects the company's business assets. In this case, the downline organization are those assets. May those assets/businesses eventually move to the other company when the non-compete expires? Maybe so, but in the time covered by the non-compete agreement, the company has time to prove its worth to the customers/assets, AND grow their own business (the company's) so the impact of those who actually do leave is usually not that great.

I have never heard of a court overturning one of these--it would cause mass instability in the business world! How would you operate your business if anyone could lure away your sales force/downline with promises of big money, and have them take a large portion of your business base with them any time they chose to do so? And the same could happen to the company that took your business away, and so on, and so on,........................see why these agreements are standard practice, upheld in the courts, and a good thing--really--for everyone?

How would you feel if one of your downline left to become a Mary Kay consultant, then raided your organization to build her new downline--Regardless of the reasons she left in the first place?

Orrin and Woodward want to "take" everyone who wants to go--regardless of whose downline they are in, and whether or not those peoples' upline are choosing to stay. What if you were one of the TEAM Diamonds, Emeralds, Rubys or platinums that have chosen to stay, and your downline was raided? Put the shoe on the other foot for a minute, people--this isn't a one-way street.

Alyssa said:
August 16, 2007 4:07 PM | #

TEAM people are complaining about prices of toiletpaper, cosmetics, energy drinks, etc...so does TEAM have billions of dollars to spend to compete with Quixtar?  

Good luck finding a supplier with the technology, research & development, customer service, quality exclusive products, compensation plan...etc.

I am just not seeing this come together for them.

hpk said:
August 16, 2007 4:58 PM | #

I am so sad that is happening to so many people. Where is the integrity on both sides? We don't need this bad press. How are our children and grandchildren ever going  to believe us and duplicate us when we have spent so many years of our lives ( 26 years) promoting this business and the system. We need to act like adults and solve this issue quickly. I think Quixtar (Amway) should study their policies better and educate their staff on how to handle this in a more positive fashion

Donald Paschal said:
August 16, 2007 5:32 PM | #

Its all posturing.  I have ALWAYS mentioned that we have an affiliation with Quixtar, Amway, and Alticor.  I have yet to have a negative response to this.  MY feeling is that if you are upfront from the start, you will do better.  That is what my upline has always tought me and it has done me well.  And if the person we're talking cannot get past Quixtar/Amway...move on.

john said:
August 16, 2007 5:46 PM | #

You know the longer you (A,Q whatever name your going to choose) the more this is going to cost you, not just in Dollars, of course thats the great indicator, but in human lives, that now have lost another Dream.

Have you guys looked at any of the elections lately? When 1 party ASSUMES their constituents are IDIOTS is when they lose elections and constituents. Problem today is that most of us (IBO's) are more intelligent then you give us credit for. Anyway point being if you analyze what you're doing around the globe, like in UK & ROI, May 4, 2007 (if you haven't read it you need to go to A in UK and read it) you act, not for sure, like you're positioning yourself to sell the Company.

Guys(Doug & Steve) have you forgotten the principles your fathers said this company was founded on and for whom it was for, the IBO, and I believe Doug I was in the Audience when you reiterated those principles.

I agree with some of the other posts, that your legal & pr staff, along with Jim Payne should be immediately Terminated for improper business building practices. Now more than ever should you guys go, especially with the amount of TRUTH coming out (Letter from Ron Simmons ... http://forums.freetheibo.info   very first post), you going to get a restraining order on him too?

What people(ibo's, general public that you say has a great opinion of you) are now figuring out is that if your (A, Q) house is clean and transparent, then why did you immediately file a restraining order, blast biased and disparaging remarks to EVERY IBO and why did you feel it necessary 3 years ago and without individual IBO approval or disclosure attach a no compete clause to our renewal?

Guys, (and this is why you need to terminate the real problems in your company, those named above) what you don't get is that Rich said a long time ago, we can't cleanup the world until we cleanup our own bedrooms... something like that. Go back and listen to his audios along with some other really great current ones then look at your house and bedroom and realize its DIRTY!!  We know it. We're not IDIOTS!

Wesley said:
August 16, 2007 7:02 PM | #

Your all talking about how things are happening.  I joined Quixtar through TEAM 4 days ago.  The person that gave me the plan and my sponsor didn't even know that this stuff was going on.  I learn a couple days after joining that the whole line of stuff that I was told when I joined is wrong.  

I was told that Quixtar was a vendor and that TEAM was about to change to a cheaper vendor.

I was also told about the depth way of building they use.  As far as I've seen it only makes the people at the top making the bonuses money.  Once you get a line under you to 7500 you stop making money off of that line and as the rebate they recieve gets closer to yours, you make less money off the line.  The examples of the leadership bonuses show low figures for what it takes to get there.

Is Quixtar going to introduce a plan to all the TEAM people who were misinformed or are we all just going to be let loose in which case Quixtar will be just like any other MLM with the exception that you pay a yearly fee to stay in instead of a monthly fee like the others charge?

Is Quixtar just going to sit back till September 1 and let the remainder of the people that are teaching the team way keep doing what their doing, which will make a lot of people mad when days after they join they hear that the people they know were getting them to join, telling them how good a system is only to learn days later that the system can't be used and their out $250.

Big Bob said:
August 16, 2007 9:04 PM | #

The leadership of Team has tremendous character.  And until now I thought Quixtar did.  Regardless of the issues - pricing, "stacking" non-compete agreements, name achanges to Amway. . . or anything else Quixtar/ Amway's reactions show a huge lack of industry leadership and character.  They've obviously been very quick to react and thus pick many wrong battles.  Not allowing Team to voluntarily go and then pawning it of the public is being terminated is where the stench begins.  I've always been loyal to Q/A but to see this lack of professionalism is detrimental to themselves more than anything b/c the IBO's who thin this thru will see the truths and the Teams integrity and vision for the future and that is what's most important.

Paul Bodine said:
August 16, 2007 9:05 PM | #

Dear Editor, can you please explain this note-

Editor's Note:  We would let Team's leaders leave quietly. They're the ones who filed a lawsuit against the company that required response. Our own dispute resolution process would have kept this very quiet.  -- RL

If I'm not mistaken, the public announcements of the Team Leader terminations were not made by anyone representing The Team.  A lawsuit certainly requires a response but why did the corporation need to go public with it?  Please do not side step this question as the answer seems to go to the heart of revealing the intention behind these actions.

 

Editor's Note: The lawsuit filed by Team's leaders and a few other leaders plugged into the Team training program is publicly available. The attorneys for Team issued a news release the following day that further spread their assertions. To not respond would mean we were not defending the business for the tens of thousands of IBOs who remain committed to building ethical businesses within Quixtar's Rules of Conduct.   -- RL

Tex said:
August 17, 2007 12:26 AM | #

Ken Eide August 15, 2007 1:06 PM & HSW

August 15, 2007 6:51 PM

Your description of Quixtar making less money with stacking makes no sense. If the products are purchased at IBO price and the same overall bonus is payed out, the structure makes no difference to the resulting Quixtar profit. Do the math.

Perry Abernathy August 15, 2007 4:26 PM ,

Does this mean Billy is going to change his sons' names?

Amanda Christianson August 15, 2007 11:06 PM and editor,

These people weren't leaders, they were making MUCH more on tools than A/Q and not being honest about this fact. Editor, when Amanda stated you wouldn't let Woodward et al, leave quietly, she probably meant immediately, which would have been a mistake. You made the right decision by enforcing the 6 month/2 year rules.

Greg August 15, 2007 11:30 PM,

I agree with most of what you said, except you don't have to get rid of the systems, just lower the prices by forcing transparency regarding tool profit.

To Bad for Everyone! August 15, 2007 11:44 PM,

Robin's a guy.

Stacey Lane August 16, 2007 12:47 AM,

Your upline are trying to appear as if they are taking the high road. In reality, they make MUCH more money on tools than Quixtar and are not honest enough to tell you the truth. You spend almost $1,400/month on products? Wow, that's a lot of XS and food bars.

GC., CALIFORNIA August 16, 2007 3:30 AM,

Totally agree.

Frustrated IBO August 16, 2007 3:41 AM,

Part of what you signed is a clause that allows the deal to change. You should read the rules every year, AND Quixtar should notify IBO's of ALL changes as they occur, including explanations/examples to illustrate what the new wording means. I think many rules are so vague they can be interpreted different ways, and this is generally NOT a good thing.

Jeffrey August 16, 2007 2:34 PM,

Wrong. All IBO's below Platinum are customers, the tools are not an illegal pyramid. Unethical and immoral to not admit most of their profit comes from tools? YES. All that has to be done is require tool profit transparency, and let the IBO demand determine the correct pricing. I doubt prices would stay where they are, and I hope this is the REAL reason for Woodward et al, leaving.

Janine Dirkson August 16, 2007 3:27 PM,

What you said is largely true, but even more money is made by the upline via the tools. Let's not lose focus about the number one issue while we fix numbers 2, 3 and 4.

Jeffrey said:
August 17, 2007 1:00 AM | #

Tex, IBOs are not RETAIL customers and you know it.

HSW said:
August 17, 2007 2:21 AM | #

TEX, what's the answer?

The current Quixtar SA 4400 states the following:

“The average monthly gross income for active IBOs was $115. Approximately 66% of all Ibos of record were found to be active”.

Question:

How does that compare to IBOs on TEAM and TEAM affiliated organizations. The average monthly

PV per IBO on TEAM is quite higher (according to my information)than in other organizations.

Final comment:

With TEAM you are willing to step back in profitabilaty to help others gain. The payback will be a community that will last. Everybody wins. Long term.

Scott said:
August 17, 2007 11:57 AM | #

just don’t know why Amway does not step up and realize that there are many (even not a part of Team) that will not want to stay with the “New” Amway. I think they could save face in a big way if they just let US go that don’t want to be a part of the new business model. That would be a great way for the public and media to regain some respect for the Amway Corp. And that is what Amway needs right now, please do the right thing for all involved for those that want to go and those who want to stay.

SAK said:
August 17, 2007 12:01 PM | #

I am very sadened by the Company taking a step back to the middle ages. I was in Amway in the 90’s and it was very discouraging and hard to build because of the name. I was thrilled with the New Quixtar business and I actually had success with building that, now, without any input by IBO’s you are forcing me to make a choice, well my choice is to not be involved with a company that does not care about it’s “distributors” I LOVE the products (over priced) but I bought them cause I was a loyal business owner, but I don’t want to go back to trying to convince people that Amway is a good and option for making money. I’m glad there are men out there who will stand up for what they feel is right and for the rights of others. I say farewell to Amway!

Ohio IBO said:
August 17, 2007 12:11 PM | #

Tex --- have you always been this rhetorically incessant?

I think you must fall in 1 of 3 categories, or some combination of:

1. Quixtar / Amway employee -- trolling

2. IBO who has had marginal success

3. Critic of the business

Whatever the case, it doesn't really matter. The fact that you're obviously operating with an agenda trivializes your comments to the point of irrelevancy. If you believe that strongly in your rhetoric, why don't you go build the business without the tools you rail about? This will prove your point, and make your argument seem like just that, an argument, rather than the vitriolic rant that it is!

LR said:
August 17, 2007 1:28 PM | #

This is for all complainers, frustraded, negative, narrow minded and/or short vision people.

If you really think so bad about this business why don't you just leave and look for a better opportunity for you and your family? (just like when you switch form one job to another). One you can start with a capital investment that you are probably willing to spend for a good diet program for your wife/husband?

We don't mind keeping the cake all to ourselves.

I wonder what choices in your life you had before seeing the business plan. One thing I'm sure of is that you learned to dream at one point and that you considered your dreams good enough to be pursed on.

Do you have a better plan to reach your dreams? go fo it man! don't even hesitate! we won't miss you a bit. I promise.

but don't cry because mama is not giving you what you want;(for free). if want to do your own will, then build your own company and learn to assume your own risk.

you know is not easy and you also know that a good load of cojones are needed as well as high class business skills and a couple of your family generations to buil it.

give it your best shot, prove me wrong, be a man.

be a man better than the Devos and Van Andel.

HSW said:
August 17, 2007 2:00 PM | #

TEX, August 17, 2007 12:26 AM

TEAM has not only created a transparency to the tool income they also channeled it fairly to those who perform. Starting @ the qualified Platinum level, no rewards are given to anybody even higher pins, which are not in the living rooms helping others build their businesses. If you are not at the pulse of your business you don’t get rewarded. Every new TEAM IBO can count on that help.

The Quixtar compensation plan pays based on volume. Not on how secured your business is structured. The TEAM compensation is based on helping others to secure their businesses in depth. It’s paying those who perform. No matter how deep down in a leg you are positioned you get rewarded fairly. Without that income many wouldn’t get the financial support to survive and pay for their gas, while building. Helping others first helps you!

As a final thought, TEX – what is wrong with guiding people to information that helps them grow personally? No good book has ever hurt somebody.

If there is a will there is a way. TEAM is the way.

HSW said:
August 17, 2007 4:18 PM | #

LR, August 17, 2007 1:28 PM

Well respected board members that were loyal to the company for over 30yrs, have realized that the direction corp. is going is no longer pro IBO.

The new guy doesn't has the same chance anymore to succeed. That's why they stepped away. They are men of character.

Impugning them and the rest of the Team says incredibly more about the person who is slandering, than it does about the person being criticized.

Listen when character speaks, not when characters speak.

Emerson said it best. “Who you are is screaming so loudly in my ears that I cannot hear what you are saying.”

Kim said:
August 17, 2007 5:30 PM | #

We signed up under TEAM; we were told at many, many, many meetings that Orrin and Chris were working with Quixtar to redefine the system and at the last meeting I attended about 8 months ago (due to complications we had to sit back for the time being) we were told that by Sept. 2007 the TEAM way of doing things was going to be implemented Quixtar wide and just watch the numbers grow. It was also stated that the delay until Sept. was to allow TEAM members to grow as much as they could before it was opened up to the general public. This is the only version I know. My entire upline is TEAM, right up through Brady and Woodward. So, with the top of our line gone, who will we turn to? We don't know our sponsor and at first that bothered me but since the person who introduced us to the business continued to work with us, I really didn't care. I had been part of Amway many years ago and at that time I was told before signing up that all the help and support I needed would be there at a moment's notice. When I signed up I couldn't reach my sponsor ~ leaving many messages and only gtting one in return telling there was a meeting coming up and to do anything with the business I needed to have 10 or more people there to sing up. I didn't have a clue how to even approach people, let alone get them to a meeting. I had no clue who my upline was or how to contact anyone but my sponsor who wasn't returning my calls. I was a single mom trying to find a way to make ends meet and my Amway sponsor really made this sound like the answer to my prayers. I missed 2 car payments as a result and terminated the business when my anniversary rolled around. I attempted to contact Amway and after 3 letters I fonally got a response that told me these are independent businesses and if mine is not doing well it is not the fault of Amway and that Amway does not endorse the affiliation of any IBOs and if I have a problem with my sponsor I should take it up with them. Then they sent me a bunch of paperwork and materials and it was all Greek to me, they also sent me a letter stating I could file a claim against my sponsor but that it may take many months for action to be taken if at all again stating these are IBOs and free to provide whatever support they feel necessary. My husband and I later got involved in Quixtar when it first began and boy was that a mess. The computer was forever crashing, no one could place orders in a timely manner, orders weren't coming or came wrong and again there was no Quixtar (company support), also when we joined this time at a meeting we were told to never refer to Quixtar and Amway in the same sentence that they are NOT the same. We dropped out again. Then my husband was approached with the TEAM idea. The idea of our upline helping us otherwise our upline would not build and prosper rang out to my husband, he researched the plan for many months and it really made sense to him. The idea of unity, togetherness, strength in numbers, made more sense to him than anything he had heard before, it made a whole lot more sense than the spider web approach that offers no bonding, no strength and really no support for those below and above you. You build one leg at a time, you focus on communication, support, training of one mainstream down and when you are able to duplicate yourself to a level of comfort that it can continue without your immediate presence, you move to your next leg and you repeat your efforts. Quixtar and Amway want you to spread yourself thin and wide and don't worry about building that strength going down because that's not the Q/A way. I can devote my time better to a few who all have a common goal in mind than to many who are all in competition with each other. The TEAM way enables you to hold livingroom meetings with the intent that everyone there will work together, regardless of who comes first; Q/A says spread them wide and at that livingroom meeting you decide which number leg each person there goes into to compete against one another.

One other thing... IF Q/A is so committed to its IBOs, and IBO is anyone who signs the dotted line to become an IBO, it is not someone who makes Platinum or higher, yet Q/A only sent out correspondence to Platinums and above to let them know about this issue with TEAM. The rest of us had to go online and find this Blog to get further information, which really is nothing more than other's opinions of who is right and who is wrong ~ there is no information about what is going to happen to the rest of us IBOs who signed up under TEAM and who's upline, who's support, is now gone. We were very close to becoming platinum and then LIFE happened and we had to focus on that. But I am now so happy to know that according to Q/A if you are not a Platinum you are not really considered or respected or identified as an IBO and we don't warrant a correspondence. THANK YOU Quixtar for conuing through the years of valuing the little guys! The name may change but the attitudes remain the same.

David W. said:
August 17, 2007 5:52 PM | #

LR,

I think that is the whole point of the lawsuit that Quixtar is not willing to let the IBOs leave and find a better opportunity.  Last time I checked I lived in the US not Iraq, China, USSR (ops my bad now they can choose too.).  Basically, I am on nobody's side but me and my family which means if I can find a system and people that are willing to help with that well count me in.

John said:
August 17, 2007 8:12 PM | #

Hey Robin Luymes..   I saw your responce to an IBOs question about why didnt Q/A let the Team people leave quietly and you referred them to the fact that "..if they had only used the internal arbritration process they could have".

Well I hate to break it to the public here becasue chances are they probably dont know about how that works.  I have read the entire 47 page legal suit against Q/A.  Everything from the Price fixing to the accusations about price gouging, the Jay-Rule of how the familys calculate the profit (actual cost X 3 = IBO cost) to the history of A and Q, INCLUDING how your special arbtration process.

That process is a croc when I read that.  It is not only slanted towards the corporation (which is to be expected anyway) but it is a very long and expensive process of hoops for the IBO to even run through.  

And this part is great..

I quote the suit "In fact after one lawsuit, Quixtar added a very expensive alternative to the JAMS trained Arbitrator, a complaining IBO may now pay extra for the privilege of arguing before a neutral arbitrator".

You have to pay more for a fair and unbalanced representation?

Come on now.. come clean and lets let the world know that the silly $6 or whatever it is that goes to the arbitration panel is only buying a biased court.

The bottom line is if your corporation is unwilling to give fair prices and fair competition in the market (not against crappy Wally world stuff but normal products) if your unwilling to budge and yet still hold the people in check legally from doing anything else, then you people are truely runninng an pyramid.  Your putting the profits of the familys (the true reapers of the Jay-Rule of profit) over the people in the field.  That is a stealing our oppertunity to do business so "someone at the top can make the money"  

Everyone should read the Lawsuit.. it is absolutely amazing how Q/A work behind the curtain.

Keith said:
August 17, 2007 9:59 PM | #

To the Editor...

You wrote:

"Editor's Note: The entire IBOAI did not support the actions taken by the 15 IBOs who were terminated, which includes a lawsuit that threatens the entire Quixtar business and the announcement they are forming a competitive company.  The joint statement from the IBOAI board of directors, the North American Founders Council, and Quixtar indicate a unified front against these leaders and support for the actions taken by Quixtar. -- RL"

Do you "really" think that the rest of us out here are that stupid?  It is apparent from the many, many postings out there that the IBOAI Board "was in agreement" with the "issues" put forth by Orrin, Chris, and the other IBO Leaders terminated.  No one, including Team, has stated that the entire board was in agreement with the filing of the lawsuit, or that they should all resign...that is something that seems to have materialized through the postings of the A/Q coporation and others in their employ.

To expect us to swallow the "Joint Statement" as truth is actually insulting.  Any person of even simple intelligence understands that when a gun is pressed to your head (or the head of your livelyhood), that you will come out in agreement with those holding the gun.  Sure, the remaining members of the IBOAI board will "say" they stand behing the corporations actions...but is this due to their actual beliefs or is it so that they do not face the same action as the others?  Protectionism is a strong lever...if they are willing to terminate them, what stops them from terminating "me" if I don't speak as they direct me to.

Let's stop addressing comments by picking and chosing incomplete parts or mixing statements together.

Beryl Nichols said:
August 17, 2007 11:15 PM | #

David W:  LR is spot-on!!  Everything you can name is sold through MLM.  NuSkin is even starting a new MLM involving photo CD's like it is a ground floor opportunity.  Pshaw!  Look around and find one and I will guarantee that Quixtar won't take a second look.  That's what puzzles me about TEAM.  They want what Quixtar has, yet they refuse to follow Quixtar rules.  I have been around for 30 years and I can tell you, if you can find a company to deal with that even comes close to the integrity, honesty, credibility and offers the services of Alticor/Amway/Quixtar go after it!  The first thing you will find is that most MLM's have a parent company that is publically traded....that's where YOU LOSE.  When things get tough the weak ones always leave....where do you think all the others came from in the first place.  They typically say the founders used to be in Amway and quit.  This is just like Amway, only better.  People can't keep their mouths shut about Amway, even if they hate it.  And Amway gets bigger and better because of the leadership.  Keep the Faith

Josh said:
August 18, 2007 12:29 AM | #

Kim,

There is nothing wrong with your approach to build the business.  So long as each individual knows their sponsor and understands the difference between their sponsor and their upline mentor.  Check the SA 4400

The problem arises when people are placed in a leg without them knowing who their sponsor is.

Secondly, not mentioning Quixtar or Amway is a big no-no.  Transparency is key.

Claiming TEAM and its associates negotiated deals with XS is also a big NO-NO.

Not mentioning Quixtar or Amway at an Opportunity Meeting is also a big NO-NO.  We know this happens, myself from personal experience, and Tex who is affiliated with TEAM.  

These are reasons for investigation and termination, if found to be in violation.

Best of Luck

Ann said:
August 18, 2007 3:03 AM | #

It is amazing to me if TEAM was and has been building depth incorrectly according to Quixtar.  And has repeatedly continued to not heed to the Quixtar warnings. If this is true, then why did Quixtar allow the Legacy Group to join the TEAM in the later part of 2006?

Come on Quixtar, if TEAM is so bad, then let our people go, so you can try to peddle AMWAY again.

Why did AMWAY have to leave North America in the first place?  Do you think we have forgotten? This is not the AMERICAN DREAM to have something that I did not sign up for shoved down my throat.  And because the name is changing, give us a chance to leave without non compete clause.  What are you afraid of?

Does it not bother you IBO's that not only did Quixtar not tell you they are going back to the name AMWAY, they kept it from the IBOIA Board, that represents us.  If Alticor does this now, what have they hidden in the past and what kind of future do you have?

Again let our people go.  Ask each of us, do we want AMWAY or do we want TEAM?  Let us decide.  Then we all get on with business.  Get all of this behind us so we can build out business.  Come on Quixtar, oh excuse me AMWAY - Be the big one and stop the nonsense, let us go.  We wish you well, do the same for us.

ken shinn said:
August 18, 2007 10:51 AM | #

Lets talk about product.  I can tell you are an old timer.  Was your Amway North America business growing in 2002?(not tool business)Has it been growing? Woodward was invited to speak at the kingpin alticor keynote speaker due to his BUSINESS PV growth!I have a thousand tapes from Bill Britt Diamonds.  Valuable business building information and yes motivation--Motivation because someone with no education,a forest of ear hair coming out of his ears (and other personal hygiene problems)combined with no mentorship or tool consumption got in Amway. He had black shoes and thin rolled down white socks and went door to door and asked my granny if she wanted to make some money like him! He is God's creature and I am not degrading him as a human being--but his business model is what my granny saw. HELLO Beryl, Hello Quixtar Don't change the name back to the "manufacturing age" of the sixties.  The Business model statistics of the sales and marketing geniuses took the name off in 2001 and went "Global". Why? I am thankful for all of the great sacrifices people like you made.  I went 4000 without much upline help in the 90's and it was unbelievably difficult--- but more difficult because of the shallow legged 6 - 4- 2 build width before depth era! Don't give me the mumbo jumbo-  They make some money off of tools-I am OK with that but they do share it with platinums.  Britt shared it with Emeralds and above.  Let Team leave amicably because it hurts everyone.  Pricing and name change -only two issues--from people on our board of directors who are there becuse I am sure they have the most to lose.  Alticor Corporate did not listen and (they need to talk to NEW ibo's who use to build it in the 90's and hoped that Quixtar.com site was going to be all that it could be and not what it is)are not listening!

Ken Eide said:
August 18, 2007 11:21 AM | #

Hey Tex,

I have done the math,,, let me slow this down for you. Check this out:

6-4-2 plan -- 48 IBOs are at 3% which means they are buying at only a 3% discount off IBO pricing.

If the corporation is at 35% profit (low estimate), the corporation makes 32% on these 48 IBOs.

24 IBOs are at 6% and 6 IBOs are at 12%. 1 IBO at 25%. Note:  high corporate profit on the product made on IBO purchases.

Depth plan --  only 2 IBOs at 3%; 3 at 6%; 4 at 9%; 5 at 12%; 10 at 15%; 15 at 18%; 20 at 21%; 15 at 23%; 1 at 25%. Can you now understand the 46% difference in "product profitability" to the corporation, which has nothing to do with the PV/BV bonuses. But you should also understand why IBOs building their businesses this way, are able to leverage personal purchases at a much better pricing for themselves.

A business golden rule: Business truth comes from following the money.

Why don't people put their full names on here... it's recommended and we would know for sure who we are blogging with.

Tex said:
August 18, 2007 12:06 PM | #

Alyssa,

I never considered this before, but you bring up a good point regarding the union mentality TEAM is showing.

Keep in mind Orrin comes from the union capital of the universe, the Detroit auto manufacturing area.

We know how THAT worked out, massive layoffs, huge corporate losses, foreign auto makers setting up shop in other areas of the country, etc.

However, I partially disagree with your pricing discussion. The company, in my opinion, has become lazy over this issue. They could afford to, as the tool profits are much larger of a problem, and they can partially hide behind this much larger problem. However, the internet is exposing all of these issues and both tool and product prices are on the table.

LO said:
August 18, 2007 12:20 PM | #

I will be surprised if this comment is displayed.

Go to: http://forums.freetheibo.info

Read:  Setting the Records straight by Ron Simmons

Come on people, do you not see that gentlemen in long standing with the Company like Billy Florence (since 1974), Simms and Haugen, resigned (not terminated), would not do so if the statements in Ron Simmons letters were not truth.  

All you TEAM people, do not feel dismayed, don't forget the VISION - We are going to a million people, with or without Quixtar.  Orrin Woodward & Chris Brady would not do anything to jepordize the TEAMS future.  

Just as a side note: If Wal-Mart became the largest Company in USA by cutting out two distribution stops, passed some of the savings to it's customers.  What do you think Quixtar has done by cutting out three of the distribution stops.  All that TEAM is saying instead of all that savings going to the Owners of Quixtar, pass some of the savings in the form of price reduction and spreading some of the wealth to the hard working IBO.  After all without the IBO, there would be no Quixtar.  Everyone is being so defensive - You don't have to defend the value of the product, which we all know it is great. But nothing wrong with giving the IBO a break for customer sales by lowering the prices slightly.  Betcha the owners would not even miss the money, as more volume would be flowing making more money for them and the IBO.

Second note: When I was an AMWAY distributor and Quixtar was born.  I was given the opportunity to choose, did I want to stay with AMWAY or go with Quixtar.  I took Quixtar with no bad residuals from the Company.  They were happy because they owned both AMWAY & Quixtar.  That year was one of the largest sign-up of IBO is the Companies history.  As it was a breath of fresh air and instilled hope in the IBO's future.  Now why is the Company forcing me to go back to AMWAY without giving me a choice.  If they think the success of AMWAY will be great back in the States, THEN GIVE US THE SAME CHOICE you gave us in 1999.   Those that are glad to see AMWAY come back, would be great, go to AMWAY. I can stay with Quixtar, then what I have said to every person I have talked to "no it is not AMWAY it is Quixtar" will remain to be the truth.  

But it is not that way - So it is TEAM all the way!

We are going to a million people, we are a leadership building organization where products and services flow.  Where integrity, character, honor, family values and most of all giving thanks to God for giving us this business where we have an opportunity to change the culture of America, one home at a time.

Blessings to all IBO's trying to build a reputable business.

Terry Stock said:
August 18, 2007 12:25 PM | #

Wow, so much chatter.  In all of my 37 years in the medical profession, particularly the 15 in academic medical centers, I was never informed of what the guru's at the top were doing until they informed me that I had to lay more good people off.  My dream is a personal journey that I share with as many others as possible.  It is powered by Quixtar or Amway (who cares) and supported by BWW.  I have found the most wonderful loving relationships with my up and downline.  Something I have never enjoyed in my 59 years.

Speaking negative is not the way we want to go.

Z4yall said:
August 18, 2007 1:26 PM | #

Here’s a hypothetical question:  When the dust settles and IBO's have made a decision to either renew their annual contract to continue their business powered by Quixtar or to not renew their business powered by Quixtar.  If my sponsor and most of the upline I know chooses to not renew and I decide I will renew will I then be introduced to the person I am linked to?  Do they then become my sponsor and therefore are obligated to help me build my business?  Even if I live in Alaska and they live in Florida?  Seems like there might be some 'stacking' issues if I am not introduced to whoever I am directly linked to based on attrition.  I do not know all of the rules so maybe there is something in the business compendium that addresses this situation.

HSW said:
August 18, 2007 3:41 PM | #

Z4yall said:

August 18, 2007 1:26 PM | #

Good point! It will be interesting to see how your new Upline will support you in your business building efforts. It is almost like playing the lottery.

The sad part is that your and your family’s financial future is at stake! And you have no control!

Ken Eide said:

August 18, 2007 11:21 AM | #

Thanks Ken for your math example. It demonstrates lost profits for Q created by an organization like TEAM that follows these depth building principles.

We still do not know the income comparisons to my question:

“The average monthly gross income for active IBOs was $115. Approximately 66% of all Ibos of record were found to be active”.

This is stated in the current Quixtar SA 4400.

How does that compare to IBOs on TEAM and TEAM affiliated organizations. The average monthly PV per IBO on TEAM is quite higher!  

Tex said:
August 18, 2007 6:25 PM | #

Ken,

The AVERAGE of your figures STILL result in the same AVERAGE income and the same AVERAGE bonus payout by Quixtar. Sharpen that pencil and try again.

L,M said:
August 18, 2007 7:27 PM | #

Com; on i going to be rich ,by eating bars and drinking

energy drinks !

team guys your better than ?

team guys do you rely like to help people!

give away the books and cds for free thats help?

Tex said:
August 18, 2007 7:30 PM | #

HSW,

As I stated on the other blog, I have no issue with tool income, as long as the amount of tool profit provided to all prospects and IBO's. It's called transparency. It's called honesty. It's called necessary.

Someone else said on another blog a Platinum should expect to make more on tools than Quixtar. Does this sound like the marketing plan YOU show prospects?

Bridgett said:
August 19, 2007 3:41 AM | #

Ken Eide from Aug 18th, 11:21 AM,

Your math is off and shows that you do not understand the Quixtar IBO Comp Plan.

Read the Business Reference Guide: https://www.quixtar.com/documents/iwov/vis/010-en/pdf/LA1015.pdf

The Performance Bonus Chart (not including the Ruby bonus) goes from 3% - 25%.

If I am an IBO doing 100 PV and I am in the 3% Performance Bonus Bracket, the Corp does NOT keep the difference. There is ALWAYS a Platinum above. So it's the Platinum (who is at 7,500+ PV) who actually is making 22% (25%-3%) off of my volume.

This is why WIDTH is more profitable than depth.

If I have 25 legs in width each doing 300PV, they each get 6%, and so I keep 19%. 19% of 21,750BV (7,500 x 2.9) = $4,100+

If I stack all those people in one leg (and teach them to do their 50PV retail so that they are entitled to their bonus checks), then I will get zero dollars, but 25% off my personal use.

The person below me will be at 7,500 PV, but 7,200 will be down one leg ('cause I've taught him to stack as well) and so he'll make 2% off the volume (since HIS immediate downline is in the 6,000 PV bracket at 23%, he taught HIM how to stack) = $417.

$4,100 is more than zero, and more than $417.

WIDTH is more profitable than depth (until the Emerald level, when the depth bonuses kick in).

Please, everyone, to save yourself any embarrassment, before you post another thing regarding how the money is made in the Quixtar/Amway business, READ THE FIRST FEW PAGES OF THE BUSINESS REFERENCE GUIDE.

Bridgett said:
August 19, 2007 3:54 AM | #

Stacking is not the problem. Signing people up in a business and not knowing/nor explaining how the money is made, is the problem.

Please read the first few pages of the Business Reference Guide and run the numbers yourself, and you will see why "inappropriate stacking" (to use IBOFB's verbiage) is idiotic at best, and ethically wrong at worst. https://www.quixtar.com/documents/iwov/vis/010-en/pdf/LA1015.pdf

Joel Hall said:
August 19, 2007 9:08 AM | #

So I build my INDEPENDENT business to diamondship and the corp can take it away. Sounds like a dictatorship. This no longer feels like a secure business opportunity.

I signed up with a leadership building organization through which products and services flow. What will the corp do when an opportunity comes along where a consumer can purchase goods directly from the manufacturer at Wal-Mart prices AND make money? Any one person with a small amount of business savy will understand that this is possible. All of you Amway IBO's should be very mindful and stay abreast with the latest trends that may affect the success of your business. This is good business practice of intelligent business men/women. To think business practices deamed profitable yesterday will remain profitable today is to think we'll always have to pay per minute charges for long distance..Silly Amway IBO's..LOL

Ken Eide said:
August 19, 2007 9:12 AM | #

Tex,

You got it about the bonuses being the same.

However, the PROFIT on the PRODUCTS themselves to the corporation is different. Using the 35% profit example, if an IBO "buys" their product when they are at 3%,,, in essence the corporation is making 32% on the product sale itself (the IBO is the consumer!!) If you are buying at 21%, the corporation is making only 14% on the product itself. This is totally separate from the bonus being paid. See number of IBOs buying at higher percentage levels in earlier blog. You see, even though only one person is making the 3% differential in bonus between 18% and 21% bracket, there are 20 IBOs able to "BUY" at 21%. (none in the 6-4-2 plan)

Using 100PV circles @ $260 IBO cost, and the 35% profit example, the difference in profitability on product itself to corporation, drops from $6,188 (6-4-2 plan) to $3,347.50 (Depth plan)

I can tell you aren't familiar with depth at this point. You need to draw it out and then figure it out. I can't talk to you because that would be cross lining.

Joel Hall said:
August 19, 2007 9:26 AM | #

There is this saying in business, "You have to eat your own dog food". Surely you cannot get "rich" by "eating bars and drinking energy drinks". However, you can become a successful husband/wife, father and business owner through association, reading and application. I couldn't face my kids, my wife, my friends if they knew I wasn't willing to pay for that kind of success for them.

SK said:
August 19, 2007 11:13 AM | #

L,M,

Hey maybe we should tell every music artist, motovational speaker,  any one who has wrote a book to GIVE it FREE.  After all, these things can help people, or just make lives more enjoyable.

That was the stupidest coment "give away the books and cd's for free that help's"  give me a break.

Oh by the way the book "Lauching a Leadership Revolution" Co authered by Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady that is being released in October by TIME WARNER...every penny made by that book is being donated to a charity, sounds like they are out for the money......

Z4yall said:
August 19, 2007 12:17 PM | #

Im tend to be more motional than logically.  But some of my corporate logical training is kicking in here.  Would y'all agree there are some changes going on?  Are you familiar with the principles taught in Project Management regarding the Stage of Adjusting to Change?  Starts at with the OLD WAY and moves through > Denial (trying to maintain the status quo) > Resistance (anger, frustration, apathy, conflict, passive or agressive behavior) > Exploration (looking at options, seeking solutions, ask for information & referrals) > Commitment (successful adaptation to new environment, know what my options are and I'm ready to move forward > and ends with NEW WAY always look ahead ... be clear on your objectives.  

We all have the responsibility to be a Change Agent as we manage this change in our lives.  These are the predictable and necessary states of team development:  1. Forming (Issues: inclusion and trust), 2. Storming (Issues: power, control, and influence), 3. Norming (issues: affection and intimacy), 4. Performing (no major issues), 5. Adjourning (loss and separation, lessons learned, closure) >>> move forward >>> adjust to change.  

All the best to each of your as you manage through this change and come to the decision on how you want to move forward.   This comes from the book, The Ultimate Gift by Jim Stovall  I finally know that joy does not come from avoiding a problem or having someone else deal with it.  Joy comes from overcoming a problem or simply learning to live with it while being joyful.  There is another story I turn during challenging times called, A Picture of Peace which is about a King who offered a prize to the artist who would paint the best picture of peace.  You can google on A PICTURE OF PEACE and read it if youre interested.  Change is the one constant in life.  Peace and joy be with you and yours as you manage change all the days of your lives  

Keith said:
August 19, 2007 1:02 PM | #

WOW!...it's amazing all the griping about tools and how much is made off of them!

Once again, I am urged to ask the question...a little different this time though:  Are these people "really" this ignorant?  I have been to "many" different training organization's sessions and while I cannot say that "all" organizations say this, I will bet that they probably all do...Information "does not come free!"

All of you tools whiners complain that the tools should be free, that people should not make money from them...WHAT???  Are you this passionate about the amount a college text book costs?  Do you speak out about the price of books for our primary education schools every time a school system asks for more money because they can afford to buy enough books for every student in a class?  Do you write responses to blogs, tell all your friends and family that the music industry is a scam because they "make" you spend (on average) $17.00 per music cd?  The answer to that is a resounding NO!  Yet you all find it so hard to come to grips with $6.00 for a training cd, or $25.00 for a seminar ticket.  Worse yet, you complain that "they are making money from the tools"!  How about this one...I am pretty P-O'd that Alticore is making money off of the products!  L,M stated "give away the books and cds for free thats help"...so Alticore, if you really want to help us IBOs, give us the products for free!  Pretty pathetic - right?!

The cost of the "systems" out there pales in comparison to the cost of "mainstream" education out there.  The problem here is NOT how much tools and training cost (even the corporation charges for most of it's training and marketing meterial - nobody has complained about that yet here!), the problem seems to be the prevailance of the growing "entitlement" mentality..."I have the right to be rich and you should provide it for me/do the work for me/just give it to me!".

The bottom line is...NO ONE forces you to buy the tools.  If you want the information you buy it, if you don't want to spend the money to invest in your learning, then don't.  Pretty simple if you ask me.

Also, Terry...how about we compare apples to apples here not apples to oranges.  Your "gurus" in the medical profession paid you to do a job..."we" pay quixtar a fee for the right to market their products.  BIG difference there!

I know that I got involved in this to make money...and lots of it...and I am quite sure that the rest of you did as well.  So why all the whining?

HSW said:
August 19, 2007 6:51 PM | #

Keith said:

August 19, 2007 1:02 PM

Keith, in support to your explanations there are additional answers right from the source. I suggest that those who are really interested log on to the following link and read Mr. Ron Simon’s very specific statement. He was the former Legacy Business Group CEO working directly with QUIXTAR before the separation. Here is the link: http://forums.freetheibo.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=150

Ken Eide said:
August 19, 2007 7:14 PM | #

Bridgett:

We are talking about 2 separate profits here.

One is the Bonus plan paid to the IBOs.

The other is the PROFIT (difference between what the corporation's cost , and what it sells for to the IBO) the corporation makes on the sale of a given product.

We are not discussing the Bonus plan here, because the bonus paid by the corporation remains the same either way.

The PROFIT (difference between what the coporation's cost of making product, and what it sells for to the IBO) differs at whatever bracket an IBO is in. In the Depth plan, if an IBO is in the middle of the 21% bracket (draw it out and you will see that there are 20 IBOs in that bracket), that IBO will receive NO bonus. However, that IBO can buy at 21% discount though. So if every IBO in that bracket buys their $260 of products at 21% discount, the company makes less. Please note example in previous blog above.

You need to sit down, draw it out and put the brackets in to see for yourself.

Those familiar with the cost of an item versus what it's sold for, will recognize this easily.

We are all in agreement as to the Bonus plan!!

It's the PROFIT made on the actual PRODUCT we are talking about here.

Everybody is so concerned about potential profit made on tools, but it seems that understanding the corporate profit on the actual product sold is a mystery to folks. Keep in mind the IBOs are the CONSUMERS and the corporation is making its PROFIT on the sale of products to the IBOs and no one else. (By Quixtar's own 2006 report only 3.4% of product sales are outside of the IBO marketing arm.)

sjones said:
August 19, 2007 7:21 PM | #

Ken,

The silver bonus is based on volume, whether 100 wide or 100 deep.  If the silver's D/L is at 23%, the silver gets 25% on personal vol. and 2% on group vol.  The bonus from Q/A is the same.

P.S. I hadn't heard of the Jay rule before, but it is cause for thought, suspicions confirmed!!

Amway became a bad name because they allowed front-loading for so many years.  People did end up with garages full of product.   Then Yager discovered depth at a time when other diamonds were going under, they wanted to kick him out too.  That the founders were able to reach accord was a tribute to the integrity of the company.  I guess they took it with them when they relinquished control.  Sounds like a replay, when someone is successful, the old guard starts whispering in the corporate ear.  Rule 4.24 IBO Plan manipulation:  "Anything the insiders dont like."  

Bridgett said:
August 19, 2007 7:26 PM | #

Ken Eide said, from August 19, 2007 9:12 AM

Please read my post to you a few comments up.

Here's some math for you:

Let's say you have 20 legs. A leg can be made up of one person or multiple people. They are sponsored IN WIDTH.

15 legs are at 300 PV each

2 legs at at 600 PV each

1 leg is at 1,000 PV each

2 legs are at 50 PV each

and you are running an 700 PV circle of personal use and customer volume.

Add up all your volume, you are at 7,500 PV and in the 25% bonus bracket.

The PV determines the % we get paid back (NOT JUST ON YOUR OWN PERSONAL USE), and the BV (the PV/BV ratio is currently 1:2.9 in the States) is the $$ amount used to determine what you get paid back on. The BV amount is close, if not exactly, the same number as IBO cost, for most coreline products.

Your 300 PV legs are at the 6% bracket, so you make 19% all ALL that volume (15 X 300 X 2.9 X 19%)

Your 600 PV legs are at the 9% bracket, so you make 16% all ALL that volume (2 X 600 X 2.9 X 16%)

Your 1,000 PV leg is at the 12% bracket, so you make 13% on all that volume (1,000 X 2.9 X 13%)

Your 50 PV legs don't get a bonus back, so you make 25% on that volume (2 X 50 X 2.9 X 25%)

And you make the full 25% on your personal circle (700 X 2.9 X 25%).

In this example, you are 7 bucks shy of making $4,000 for the month in bonus money.

Again, read the Business Reference Guide before posting any math regarding how money is made. https://www.quixtar.com/documents/iwov/vis/010-en/pdf/LA1015.pdf

Bridgett said:
August 19, 2007 7:38 PM | #

Ken Eide said, on, August 19, 2007 7:14 PM

"The PROFIT (difference between what the coporation's cost of making product, and what it sells for to the IBO) differs at whatever bracket an IBO is in."

THIS IS NOT TRUE. This is what we are trying to tell you.

All IBOs buy everything at the same price. If I buy a 12-pack of XS, I pay $20.40.

When I get my bonus check from Quixtar (usually gets direct-deposited in to my bank account) on the 15th of the following money, and I'm running, say 2,500 PV IN MY TOTAL GROUP,

then I'll get 18% back on the BV of that XS (which is also $20.40), plus whatever else I buy for personal use.

AND

I'll get 18% back (minus the percentage of what all my legs are at) of MY TOTAL GROUP VOLUME.

BUT I ONLY GET BONUS MONEY ON MY GROUP VOLUME IF I HAVE 50 PV OF RETAIL/CUSTOMER VOLUME.

If I don't, then all that money gets passed up to the Platinum.

Your Platinum is keeping the difference, because your Platinum has not told you that ALL that money gets passed up to them, because you didn't fulfill the "50PV retail customer rule".

Charles W. said:
August 19, 2007 10:26 PM | #

95%-ers Leading the "STRIVING TO BE" 5%-ers

What are we doing?

What is transpiring in our business?

The proof of a mans integrity, intentions and motives is revealed through his actions!

However there is an action of speech, words conceived, and concepts delivered.

Even when one might be in the "night of right", that is righteousness hidden in a dark place, they can cast a shadow of deception and deceit that hampers the light of truth.

You CAN euthanize your own position by the way you engage in a dialog.

Alitocore, representatives are killing our business.

It is no longer just about Team, it is about the mentality of men and women who know nothing about building our business.

A Corporate mentality that has proven time an again to kill and destroy what has been built by great men and women.

In the wake of self imposed disaster these people, often, move on to other positions of 95% mentality, leaving the wounded to repair their damage, IF IT CAN BE REPAIRED.

Correct me if I am wrong, but they are not allowed to build the business.  It is almost like a vow of economic, "B-Type", business chastity.

They have chosen to operate on the left side of the quadrant as a Highly paid, Status provided "E-type" individual, and that is OK.  Someone has to do it, just know you are doing it.

That automatically relegates them to the 95% side of the quadrant that we are all attempting to escape from.

That means a lot of 95% thinkers are controlling a business that is built to support a community of, striving to be, 5% thinkers.

As we can clearly see by the actions of those allowed the power of public communication, THEY DO NOT GET IT!!!

This does not appear to be a company, now, that would honor a legacy built business.  

We, the IBO's are the business.  Without us the corporation would have to hire a flock of salesmen, advertise and compete in a truly open marketplace.

You can not run this just as any other business, you WERE NOT, thank God, just another business at the inception but time has appeared to have eroded away the spirit by which the business was founded.

Every round should take us higher and higher, but with every corporate communication, we are being pulled, sucked, dragged and even pushed to the depths of despair and destruction.

I want a businesses that I can be sure will be a legacy for my family, and that only an act of God could stand in the way of that fact.

Men are too fickle, that is why we must, "Love them all and trust only ONE".

Now I am really understanding what is meant by, "Trust in the LORD with all thine Heart, and Lean NOT to thine own understanding".

LO said:
August 19, 2007 11:04 PM | #

Doesn't matter, doesn't matter, doesn't matter!

Let our people go, so we can make money, have fun and make a difference in other peoples lives.

Ken Eide said:
August 20, 2007 12:59 AM | #

Bridgett,

You are right in that all IBOs buy at the same price. Let's use your example of you being at 2500PV bracket and let's simplify things:

If your sponsor did their 100PV and was at 2600PV and no side legs, your sponsor would get 18% BV bonus back on what they personally purchased. If their sponsor did their 100PV and was at 2700PV with no additional legs, they would get 18%BV bonus back on what they personally purchased as product. Now if the new person at the bottom of your group only did their 100PV, they would get a 3% BV bonus on their personally purchased product.

Did the corporation make more money on the 100PV of product purchased, by only having to pay out a 3% bonus to the new person (3% x 260BV = $7.80 BV check) , or on your sponsor or their sponsor's 100PV each at 18% (18% x 260BV = $46.80 BV check each)???

You do the math now --- There is a 15% difference or $39.00 on what the corporation pays out for the same 100PV of product. We are talking about corporate product profitability, and their model, and believe it -- the corporation knows these numbers. If you don't understand this yet, I can't help you any further.... The corporation only makes money on the product sales to the IBO consumer!

Piet Strydom said:
August 20, 2007 12:03 PM | #

Ken Eide Said: Now if the new person at the bottom of your group only did their 100PV, they would get a 3% BV bonus on their personally purchased product.

Piet Says: It seems like their is a problem in the training that your system gave to you. Taking your 3% example above: The bottom IBO gets his 3% of BV. The BV then moves up the line, until it stops at the next bracket level, which is 6%, and whatever side criteria may be in place. (10 client, 50PV). This person then gets the next 3%. Then the BV moves up the pipeline, till the next bracket, until it hits the top of the bonus scale. So, you see, how much gets paid out, doesn't change, all that change is who it gets paid to.

Let me put it to you in a different way (From the top, not the bottom): A platinum producer gets 25% of the BV of all the people in his business, including himself. (plus the 4%) HOWEVER, the platinum then goes down each of his pipelines. (I don't know the US scales, so assume next bracket is 18%).

The first (from the bottom up) person in a leg on 25%, gets the same treatment as the platinum, i.e. 25% gets paid to him, from the platinums income, assuming the 25% person has customers and 50PV. (Or whatever the criteria are.)

So, the 25%er gets 25% of all BV in his business, and goes down the leg to the first (from the bottom) 18%er, and pays the downline 18% of all the downline's BV. And so on, and so on.

No there are also other criteria in place to determine whether the commission actually gets paid out. (E.g. customer rule). If that rule is not met, the money moves all the way upline to the platinum. (NOT Amway/Quixtar, or even the JAY-factor!!!)

Let me repeat, A/Q pays the same % on EVERY product that it sells to or via IBO's. However, the structure of the business that the IBO's, from the corporation down have in place, determines how much of the bonus goes where. So in fact, the profit you are talking about, sits in your upline's pockets, not in those of the Van Andel's, and De Vos'.

Do you now understand why Quixtar is upset about the training and practises followed in the TEAM approach?

SAK said:
August 20, 2007 12:28 PM | #

Has anyone looked at YouTube and searched “Andy Andrews Explains Quixtar” Anyone who wants to better the business for the new guy seems to get “kicked” out.

YouTube…”Andy Andrews Explains Quixtar”

Gene said:
August 20, 2007 12:44 PM | #

One of the things that seems to contiuously be forgotten on this whole stacking/widthbuilding issue, is that we MUST retail, and therefore, by definition, the stacking model works BETTER for this.  Come on people, if you are width building, and doing the retail you should be, most people are lucky to get out of the 3% bracket, and probably one in a thousand ever hit 12%.  that means you are getting chicken scratch back on your retail sales.  couple retail with the depth model, and in 2 to 3 months you can be at 12%, so you are making a bit more, and your percentage will keep increasing as well, meaning you are making more money...  Yes, depth building means making less money OFF of your DOWNLINE, but people need to retail products also.

Gene said:
August 20, 2007 12:47 PM | #

SAK,

I have seen the andy andrews youtube vid.  what a crock.  He carefully makes comments like saying "the corporation is not going to pay you anymore", and makes it seem like people are getting cheated.  If you review that whole fiasco, the corp required them to re-structure the way they were paying out money made off of system tool sales to avoid anit-pyramid laws.  like the issue with TEAM, it seems that people are only looking at part of a story....

Piet Strydom said:
August 20, 2007 12:50 PM | #

To LO: They can go, they can go, they can go  - Once they have honoured the commitments in their contracts, being the good, integrity-filled, honest IBO's that they are....

Bridgett said:
August 20, 2007 1:14 PM | #

Ken,

If I were a 100PVer at the bottom of an 18% leg, then the person at the top of that leg (who satisfies the 50PV customer rule) would make the 15% off of my volume. (18 - 3).

And, if there was no one in between that 18%er and the Platinum, then the Platinum would make 7% on ALL that volume in that leg. (25 - 18).

Olib said:
August 20, 2007 1:59 PM | #

Ken Eide,

I truly hope that you were not in the business when IBO’s had to pay the bonus to their group. No wonder Amway got a bad name.

This is an example of why this business is so awesome. If an IBO builds proper width and depth that IBO will receive a bonus check and won’t have to know math.

Tex said:
August 20, 2007 10:39 PM | #

Ken,

I was going to again correct your math, but several others have already done that for me. I won't "pile on" with more PV/BV and profit calculations. You are truly lost in some pretty simple math.

Think about what you said above. If the products initially cost every IBO the same, and the total bonus paid out is based on total volume, then Quixtar MUST make the same amount of profit. Do the math with 10 deep versus 10 wide and report back. Apologies accepted.

By the way, 3rd grade math does not count as cross-lining. In fact, most of the issues considered cross-lining by your upline are NOT cross-lining according to the corp, but the concept has been extended to minimize your knowledge of most other IBO's having a net loss. Since the upline rule is don't put any negative downline, each IBO is effectively isolated in their own little world, and taught to wear a smiley face like everyone else, giving the impression of overall  success.

Clever, but the cat is out of the bag.

Regarding Andy Andrews, the problem with TIF was they were trying to pay ALL IBO's. With no outside customers, this is the definition of an illegal pyramid. I have about 100 TIF tapes and even more of TEAM tapes. Both groups are REALLY fired up about their "new and improved" systems.

A key thing Andy says about the existing payout system (pre-TIF plan) about 11-12 minutes into the video is the fact the higher pins (Diamonds and above, perhaps Emeralds and above) make "several times" more on tools than Quixtar. TIF tool prices were similar to TEAM, which are similar to other systems. Unless there are SIGNIFICANT differences in overhead, this means ALL these systems have similar payouts. As with stacking, the DISTRIBUTION may be different, but the TOTAL profit is still similar.

I was also talking recently with someone who knew Andy quite well and remarked about how TIF insisted on paying cash at opens, and Andy had brown paper bags of money stashed everywhere, in the trunk of his car, glove compartment, on his boat, etc. He now realizes the source of the money and the probable lack of paying taxes on this money.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Without the checks and balances of disclosing tool profits, human nature takes over and ruins a business that had a great concept in 1959.

LO said:
August 21, 2007 1:39 AM | #

To Piet Strydom

I agree if the business and contract was staying under the name of Quixtar.  But it's not - It is changing to AMWAY so how can they hold us to a contract under a different name?  Oh I forgot Alticor can make changes in the contract and the IBO can't opt out because of the change?  That is not the AMERICAN WAY.  

You should see the emails being sent to all of the Quixtar/TEAM IBO'a from Alticor and Quixtar.  They are first of all written in the language of an 8th grade girl, using words such a "yup".  Finishing the email with "I wish we could say we were sorry to see Woodward go - If we were."  

Come on Alticor/Quixtar, run these notes by your Attorney before sending to us, so you don't look utterly ridiculous.

Unbelievable, for a Company of such stature to crumble and stoop to such unprofessional tactics.

Brad Obert said:
August 21, 2007 10:04 AM | #

Ken Eide,  your math is wrong.  It does not matter what rebate level the newer IBO is at.  The corporation pays out the same bonus money on every product.  It just goes upline to the sponsor or platinum or those in between. Someone is at 25%.  So the corp make the same $ regardless of depth building or width building.  

Brad Obert (full name)

SAK said:
August 21, 2007 11:46 AM | #

great information: http://crazyfunwildworld.blogspot.com/2007/08/team-letter-from-bill-newton.html

Thanks Bill

Piet Strydom said:
August 21, 2007 1:50 PM | #

To LO, I agree the blog on Alticor was deplorable. But as for the change to Amway, it's just branding, nothing legal changes.

Stew Y. said:
August 21, 2007 3:37 PM | #

Bravo! Charles W.,  (08/19) you nailed it!!

A/Q/A has definitely gone to a B-type mentality.  

1.  A new product line, with $50 MILLION in advertising, wait, doesn't the plan say that's where we save $$?

2.  Check Alticor - manufacturing - they're making stuff for unnamed brands, being sold in stores.

3.  And the cosmetic line being sold at Needless Markup. . .

Robin, say it ain't so!

Boonnhong Korasack said:
August 21, 2007 4:27 PM | #

I am glad that " AMWAY " is coming back with the Global Good Reputation, especially amongst Laotians and Asians former IBOs who were once upon a time cheated IRS and Canadian Revenue Agency for Tax Shelter and they blamed on Amway. It's about time to show who's the real heroe and who's taking Moses position to free the slaves from the Land of Freedom and Democracy.

HSW said:
August 21, 2007 4:33 PM | #

To all who seek for the truth. Please log on and read this new, very specified statement by Chuck Goetschel. There is nothing more to be said! http://forums.freetheibo.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=101

Tex said:
August 21, 2007 6:38 PM | #

HSW,

There is a LOT more to be said. And Chuck hasn't said it yet.

Frustrated IBO said:
August 21, 2007 10:40 PM | #

What I have noticed over the past few days is that most people have not asked to many questions - instead everyone is trying to pick some imaginary side.  Instead how be if we find out if anything that is being lobbied about is true - and if not then lets have some hard cold facts to back it up - and if not then please tell us.

1. Is it true that Quxitar will be no more - and that we all be IBO's for Amway?

2.  Is it true that effective September 01, 2007 there are some significant changes as to how we sponsor and how we retail and how we report - and all go together with this new bunch of incentives?  

3.  If it is true there are changes - when are we going to be informed about the changes - and how will be know exactly what has changed?

4.  Exactly what has Quixtar/Amway put in place to assist those IBO's for training, support and marketing egarding these changes?

5.  In all of this uproar, what is happening to the Mexican and the Canadian IBO?  What does Quixtar/Amway have in place to assist those IBO's in other countries?

6.  Is it true that the IBOIA board is hired on a contract basis and is no longer a true voice for the IBO's - because they can be fired?

Personally, I will not be associated with the "Amway" - "Scamway" name again - been there - done that - not going there again.  So I really sincerely hope that this is not true - and if it is then I certainly hope the TEAM lawsuit wins - because I with a good number of other people will be looking for new opportunities.

Twenty years of experience says it won't work in North America again.  So would someone from the corporation please give us some official information - are we or are we not and if so when is it really going to happen?

Also - really important little item here that gets forgotten.  This is not about TEAM or QUIXTAR or AMWAY - this is about each individual business being able to do business.  Again - can we or can't we?  

1millionstrong said:
August 22, 2007 12:24 AM | #

I'm a TEAM IBO and we built our businesses withing the guidlines of Quixtar. It is so frustrating how Quixtar/Amway is spinning this. When a new IBO registered with our organization the sponsoring IBO was notified and introduced to the new IBO at a Tuesday opening, house plan and or a contacting session. Come clean Quixtar/Amway. Let everyone know that the corporation is under the control of Five Republican House members who are also Amway distributors: Reps. Sue Myrick of North Carolina, Jon Christensen of Nebraska, *** Chrysler of Michigan, Richard Rombo of California and John Ensign of Nevada. Their informal caucus meets several times a year with Amway bigwigs to discuss policy matters affecting the company, including China's trade status.

Jesse LC said:
August 22, 2007 2:32 AM | #

I have to say I am shocked and amazed at how this situation is being handled on both sides.  We talk about being open minded.  We talk about synergizing and working together.

If the communications system is broke FIX IT!

I have always been told Q? Amway is a first class company.  I sacrificed 20-30 hours a week showing the plan, and promoting products for 3 years,  About a year ago I became discouraged and became less active, essentially buying product but not able to build the business. I have now spent my time building a traditional business. I question now why I spent my time for what seems like a few closed minded people and my diamonds to disagree and throw off the boxing gloves and put me in the center.   If what I say hurts.  Understand the actions of TEAM and Quxitar's have hurt me.

I believe great leaders should be humble, teachable and servants to the group. Partnership is about working together taking the others interest before your own and the other party doing the same. Selfish motives must be left with their climb to the top.  Integrity is the essential glue of any leader to those that choose to follow them.  The lack of integrity is wedge in a leader will eventually bring them down.  Leaders should consider the criticisms weigh it and use it to propel them to the top.  Those that become offended by criticisms will in the end find them selves left behind.  I have found a few of those diamonds that seem to emulate the leaders I have described above however I question are these course of events necessary.  I know a few TEAM leaders personally. I have question them to find out what is going on they will not talk to me about it.

I understand their desire for change.  That is what made them great and drove them to build their business.   They have sought change over many years have pushed for change.  They must have just got tired of asking, begging and seeing no action.  

 This whole situation reminds me of our founding fathers situation (all men of influence and wealth) finding no change except increasing taxes and diminishing representation.  They were left with a choice to declare independence or become what they felt was increasingly abused and enslaved by England.

In this case I don't believe Quixtar or the ex/resigning IBOS will benifit from this seperation This whole deal has LOSE-LOSE written all over it.  Both have much more gain by working together.

May be its time Quixtar and TEAM all get back to the basics, look where they came from, find out what made them great and make a change for the better. How can we make it a WIN-WIN? Why not find a common goal and work toward it?

Putting all of what should have been kept between the EX/Resigning IBOs and Quixtar aside.

What I have learned from this business is a proper attitude and action is essential to building any business.  I am grateful to Quixtar and Amway and My LOS for helping over come myself and giving me a dream and the tools to achieve it.  The principles I have learned I take with me and I can apply them the rest of my life.  I thank all for that.

For us that continue with Quixtar/ Amway I wish us the best of luck. May God continue to bless us in our pursuits.  I will keep my tabs and my hope on what still could be the best business opportunity in the world, Quixtar! For now I will continue building my traditional business, "A business I have control over."

ANN said:
August 22, 2007 3:50 AM | #

Great questions from Frustrated IBO - Ask Robin to answer these for you.

Ditto on HSW's comments!

TO ALL IBO'S DO YOURSELF A FAVOR READ CHUCK GOETSCHEL'S POST AT: http://forums.freetheibo.info/viewtopic.php?F=3&t=101

You may not agree with everything, but think about it - Why would Chuck give up everything (or choose not to spin it).   For all  IBO's and for the New IBO's.  These are men of integrity that finally says ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!  After reading this you will have plenty of questions to ask the Company.  This will give you information you did not know was happening behind the scenes.

We left Corporate America to have the freedom to do this business.  So tell me why does this now feel like Corporate America all over?  

Me said:
August 22, 2007 4:59 AM | #

You all are wondering why the board takes the side of the corporation, Common most all of them have a global business and makes millions of Dollars from there businesses, and yes tools just like orin and chris do. The difference is all board members outside of team are still what you would consider kingpins because they keep a big slue of there tool money unlike the team leaders is all transparent and yes we know how much orin and chris make bet there's not a single downline below any other board members know what there board member makes from tools. Team is being shot because of this. Transparency on tools. No other board member wants there downline knowing how much money there is in tools at there level. Orin and Chris are open to this. That is why all the honerable men were joining there organizations same opportunity for the new IBO and yes even on tools. Yes all of us Team members were being taught correct with the rules and conduct. Yes there are I'm sure mistakes made by Team IBO's but not that is taught by Team's system or by there Leaders. Second Big reason why the corporation doesnt like Team is because of the product they promote. We all know XS is a seperate vendor, less profit made off of the product for alticor. XS being not made by Alticor. Team having 40,000 IBO'S at our last major all moving XS products definately is not where the corporation wanted to go. There are many reasons why this has gone down. But the real reason is follow the money trail. I would be surprised if this is even allowed through on this site.

LO said:
August 22, 2007 10:48 AM | #

To Jesse,

You are judging when you say that TEAM has not tried to work with the Company.  This is the problem they have tried for two to three years, and the Company said they were working on the issues, and yet no results.  So that just showed the IBOAI Board they were being lied to, as nothing ever changed, it only got worse only with more promises.  

If the Company had wanted to keep their word and work on the issues together that the IBOAI board had suggested, then we would see the results of their efforts.

Instead the Company changed the contract adding in a non-compete clause.  So for anyone on automatic renewal would have never known of the change. The Company must have known they would need that to hold their Crown Jewels as hostage, as they knew they had no intention of keeping their promises to address the issues at hand.  

Yes and the TEAM with the tools are teaching us life long changes that we can use in our personal lives, with family & business.  Proper attitude (posture) is just one of many along with how to have a servant heart.

And now the Company wants to be in control of the tools?????? Would you want a Company that can not keep their word and maintain their intergrity in charge of your system of learning and growth???

We are a leadership building organization where products and services flow.   We are going to a million people.

Tex said:
August 22, 2007 1:23 PM | #

Me,

I have been asking for over 2 years how much various tool systems make, and asked Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetchel a few days ago how much Platinums and above make on tools.

Stone cold silence, except from FORMER IBO's, some yahoo who said his TEAM Platinum told him he will make more from tools than Quixtar at the Platinum level, and a couple of other random, low level IBO's who THINK they know, but have never seen any documented evidence of what they were told.

Remember, the common story a few years ago was tools don't result in ANY non-profit, then a little money, then a lot, after the internet blew the lid off the lies.

Nothing from upline. Nothing on the blogs. Nothing from Quixtar. Nothing from the IBOAI Board. ALL have been asked, multiple times.

They haven't responded, so why don't YOU tell ME (Tex, not yourself) how much is made on tools?

LO said:
August 23, 2007 2:48 AM | #

Ok here is one more for the road -------

Read a letter from Bill Newton,  one of the 8 IBOAI Board Members that resigned.

He states since composing the letter, he received a letter from Quixtar saying they will not accept his resignation from last week , but they are terminating him.  

See the games the Company plays.  He can't resign because they want to proclaim they have terminated the whole group of IBOAI Members.  

Most importantly is you read all the letters from the IBOAI Board Members that have resigned and see the consistancy in their statements to the truth of what really happened .  These are men of intergrity and many years of committment to Quixtar.

The truth needs to be known to all hard working IBO's.  

Read at: http://forums.freetheibo/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24&st-0&sk=a&start=100

sk said:
August 23, 2007 9:56 AM | #

To Tex,

WOW you are in the "Team LOS" and even know personally Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel....hmmmm sounds fishy to me????

lo said:
August 23, 2007 10:18 AM | #

Sorry I typed in the wrong link to Bill Newton's letter.

The correct one is: http://forums.freetheibo/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=100

Jesse LC said:
August 23, 2007 10:34 AM | #

Well, after considering all the smelly heap of trash the Q?/A Corp is floating.  Isn't the internet a great thing.  There is truth and lies.

 I understand why TEAM "men and women of integrity" had to leave and file a legitimate lawsuit. They are not suing for Money just freedom. LO I wasn’t not down on TEAM. I just wish that the Q?/ A corp. stiffs and Our Team Leaders could pull it together.  Q?/Acorp lacks business savvy, integrity and people skills.  They should have taken advantage of "the SYSTEM of TEAM".  The Tools are the only thing of value that we present in the Plan.  The rest was just food for the relationship.

Tyrants are only brought to justice by a revolution. Now is the time for justice!

Unfortunately the courts determine what is legal not always what is right.

In times like these we all need to consider what is right and what is legal.  

LEAGALIZED SLAVERY DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT!

It takes men of integrity to do what is right.

Now I know who I need to apologize to all those I unknowingly lied to as I presented the plan to.  I told them: This was a legitimate business opportunity.

In the words of Randy Haugen as he walks off the door step of a no show "NEXT!".  

I know what I have to do.

Thanks Team for standing up and being the leaders we knew you were!

We are now seeing the power of the internet

Josh said:
August 23, 2007 1:48 PM | #

What's funny is that Quixtar is not afraid to post any and all thoughts on this matter. From nearly anyone.  And to my knowledge has not banned anyone from posting.

While over at FreeIBOs blog, people are being banned for having a point of view that differs from their moderators.  Several people have pointed this out.

While I don't care what happens in this court case, because it doesn't affect me or my business, this observation is proof enough to me that they (TEAM) have something to hide or are trying to push an agenda.

I also don't know what the corporate people at Quixtar are doing, so they may also have an agenda.  However, if the folks who post on here and at OZ are any indication of the people at Q*, then I will stand behind them and defend them.

Kia and Beth in particular have been absolutely great when dealing with questions and blogs here!

Lisa said:
August 23, 2007 3:37 PM | #

I think it's about time that Quixtar cleaned house. These actions are long overdue, and I am sorry that it may adversely affect the company's reputation. Best of luck.

Silence DoGood said:
August 23, 2007 7:29 PM | #

I have a question for Steve McElmurry. He indicates how simple the plan is compared to say..construction. How many customers do you have buying Amway products from you at retail price? Do 10 buy at retail from you every month? Always good to know the facts.  Thanks for your consideration

ken shinn said:
August 24, 2007 12:08 AM | #

Josh, give someone a hug.  Here are the facts -I have not stacked but I have had three people at a meeting and placed one under another who did not know each other but they met at my meeting.  I am working with both and they are and were alright with the one who I contacted first getting in first..depth builds security- and I tell them it is smarter to build depth but we can put them both under me-Instead since I want to help them both I explained why they would be better served if they were sponsored the way I suggested- I gave an sa 4400 and did everything legal-width is the main reason AND THE WORD AMWAY is why I went 1500 three times-in the 90's-before going 4000 and did the CORP make more off of my groups then or if I would have secured them in depth?--you do not know if you have not been on the front lines building this business having to dodge the word Amway which conjers up somone with high britches, white socks,a bad tie and bad breath pedaling shoe spray and soap!

1. Lower prices on 100 core products to compete on the web with the big box store models so I can truthfully say you can cut out 10 aisles at the supermarket and get it shipped to your door and it won't be more expensive..

2.Amway no name change-Great founders great business model-unprecedented--however when I say Ford Pinto Station wagon you think gas tank blow-up-but I had a friend who had a real good one-and the word Amway does not conjer up good vibrations on the street.--you can put lipstick on a pig--you know what I mean

3.no brochures tothe negative

4 reinstate Woodward and Brady, Goestchel and the others and the IBOAI-should only be represented by new growth and should have power true power--are they going to cut off their nose to spite...I would vote for *** Devos--he and his family have tremendous vision and integrity--they are conservative--they should talk to 1000 PV people and 600 pv-ers

5 Keep shipping cheap and expand it worldwide.

Tex said:
August 24, 2007 12:16 AM | #

LO,

I think the event behind the non-compete clause was TIF, not Orrin. Just FYI, the world does NOT revolve around the "Big O". There is probalby more behind the Bill Newton termination than he is telling you.

sk,

Where did I say I knew Chuck and Ron personally? I asked them questions on the freetheibo blog, then had all my comments deleted. Me and many others have been "banned". Now THAT'S integrity and character for you.

Jesse LC,

If you read the lawsuit to the end, they leave the door wide open for monetary damages.

Josh,

You are right about the "banning" activity. Even I, the "champion" of being "banned" How exactly do you "ban" someone from the internet, all I had to do was show up somewhere else and point out where and why I was banned, which is only a reflection on the inferior site, not me?

However, this lawsuit WILL affect you, don't kid yourself. You will pay for the lawyers and negative press coverage via higher product prices, you will have to live by whatever the court decides, etc.

EVERYONE has an agenda, that is the best way to analyze a situation. Put yourself in their position, think greedy human nature, and go from there.

Tex said:
August 24, 2007 11:31 AM | #

Moderator,

Is there an automatic "bad word" screen for this site? I stated the word "***" (Quebec Uniform Echo Echo Romeo) in a previous post, and I just saw the message from ken above, where it appears the word "***" (Delta India Charlie Kilo) was suppressed.

Does this mean nobody is actually paying attention to what is being said on these blogs, and all we are doing is blowing off steam and being ignored by A/Q? Say it ain't so.

 

Editor's Comment: We view and manually post each comment, Tex.  There is a set of words that automatically generate the asterixes ... even for our own posts!  We have not been commenting on anything the past few days due to the ongoing litigation.  However, with today's court victories we should be able to become more engaged again.  -- RL

Josh said:
August 24, 2007 2:11 PM | #

ken,

What you say is true regarding depth, it does build security in a leg.  However, it doesn't build profitability.

The way you explain it sounds very borderline to me.  I can see how this could potentially become a problem.

I am on the front lines building this business and enjoy a profitable business, even after tool expenses.  In your scenario it will take awhile before you can cover your costs versus building it wide (in my opinion).

Tex said:
August 24, 2007 2:34 PM | #

RL, thanks.

Beryl Nichols said:
August 26, 2007 6:31 PM | #

Ken,

Look at all the things we would have to give up to compete on a price point with the big box stores!  Do you really want to peddle "cheap crap" to your friends relatives and neighbors.  First thing you give away is the "satisfaction guarantee."  In the direct selling business this is a real benefit that the other MLM's say they have, but it costs the distributor everytime some one returns something.  No 180 day deal with them!!

The horror stories associated with cheap products abound!

Never in my life have I sold cheap products or shopped in cheap stores.  Price is only an issue in the absence of value.  If the price is too high for you, you probably won't offer it to a customer.  But Ken, you are not selling the price....you are demonstrating the quality and value in the product.

I don't know how they sell all the Porches' they can make and always have.  Maybe they deal with people that have the money to spend.  Not everyone is in that category, but we don't have to do business with anyone looking for cheap....guess what?  They probably won't buy!  Good!  A person has always had to have money to buy these products and I hope that will never change, because this entire business was built with quality from the word go.  I have never had to make excuses for quality and I personally don't want to ever be placed in a situation where lack of quality is a concern.  

Paul said:
August 27, 2007 2:22 AM | #

I've spent over an hour reading this thread and I'm really struck by all the childish whining and negative defeatist attitudes.

It's encouraging!  Like watching someone on stage and you just KNOW that if they made it, you can certainly do it.  

We need more real men and fewer little boys.  Grow up!

Tex said:
August 27, 2007 11:00 AM | #

Paul,

What do you mean by "they made it"? Made the money from Quixtar to go Emerald or Diamond and retire, or made the big bucks on tools in order to do the things they describe as part of their lifestyle?

SAK said:
August 27, 2007 12:49 PM | #

To TEX:

You completly amaze me with your vast amount of knowledge and wisdom. You blow me away that your knowledge is so much greater than any person that has been on Team, even if that person has been on Team for years your knowledge is FAR greater than any Team member. How do you do it? You have a special gift! Why are you wasting your time on this blog when you should be running for President in 2008. With all that amazing knowledge, YOU could fix all the problems with the Iraq war, oh and why you are at it, please with that knowledge, fix the over inflated gas prices that we have been dealing with for years. You have far to much knowledge and wisdom for all of this….TEX for PRESIDENT IN 2008.

You got my vote!!!

Tom Spivey said:
August 27, 2007 1:49 PM | #

The decision for all of you that are so upset with the Quixtar/Amway Business is really quite simple.  Quit or stay. No one is begging you to remain an active Quixtar IBO, certainly not the leaders of "The Team".  If you want to leave then do so and get sponsored into your new business and build away.  Unfortunately what you really want to do is "Move Over" into the new MLM with your current downline and not loose your place in line.  No legit MLM or Franchise Business would allow that.  Everyone is free to build or to quit.  I for one would like the Team Members to stay and help build OUR business even larger but if they want to leave, then do so and quit messing with MY business on your way out.

Tex said:
August 27, 2007 3:54 PM | #

SAK,

Thanks for the offer, I wouldn't want the job. Politics is too slimy. And that's saying a lot with what is going on with this business.

Tom,

Well said. SAK, there's your Presidential candidate (nothing personal, Tom)!

Flying High said:
August 27, 2007 10:21 PM | #

Deepest Sympathy to The Victor Family who lost Helyne this month.  Helyne and her husband Joe along with Rich and Jay were founders of the business in 1959.  It was run by entrepreneurs who worked their way up door to door in the field. The Victors are tremendous examples of this and have led the way for many.

Unfortunately, the company is now run by corporate MBAs, lawyers, and family that never had that experience and lead a company that continues to limit the basic principals that it was founded upon. This thought was sparked from the following quote in a tribute to Helyne on trueIBOstories.opportunityzone.com:

"A change in the Nutrilite marketing plan prompted Jay, Rich, and several others (the Victors and Hansens among them) to form a new distributor organization in 1959 called the American Way Association. It was decided that Rich and Jay would head a sales company that would supply products (Amway), and that the AWA, which is now the Independent Business Owners Association (IBOA) International, would serve as the voice of the distributor network."

I wonder if history will repeat itself and the customers and entrepreneurs will win.

JERRY BAATERMAN said:
August 29, 2007 2:05 PM | #

SO BY READING THE DEFINITION OF "STACKING AND HOW QUIXTAR AMWAY DESCRIBES IT, THE TEAM DID NOTHING WRONG??? OR DID IT JUST TAKE 8 YEARS (OF VOLUME) FOR QUIXTAR TO FINALLY DO SOMETHING, I THINK AND FROM WHAT I KNOW ABOUT THE TEAM, IS THAT "THE TEAM" BECAME INCONVIENT' FOR QUIXTAR WHEN THEY WANTED TO TALK THIS BUSINESS MODEL TO THE NEXT LEVEL, SO MY OPINION IS THERE IS VERY LITTLE VISION IN THE LAWYERS AND MARKETERS THAT NOW RUN QUIXTAR.

AND THERE WILL BE A SWIFT ENDING TO QUIXTAR AMYWAY OR LO AND BEHOLD THEY WILL OUT OF DESPIRATION TAKE THE TEAM MODEL AND CLAIM IT AS THEIR OWN.  HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF, I HAD FAMILY AND FRIENDS GET SCREWED WHEN IT WENT TO QUXTAR TO AMYWAY AND IM SURE THAT WONT CHANGE NOW GOING THE OTHER WAY, YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF ROAD IN THIS JOURNEY.

Beryl Nichols said:
August 29, 2007 4:59 PM | #

Tom Spivey,

Well said.  My sentiments exactly.  Quixtar has rules that are very specific.  What do we need the "pretty boys" for, in the first place.  

Rich always said, "well you gotta tell them about the soap sometime."  This business has always been ripe pickins for the "slick," easy way con men to come in and try to take over, because unless you're in the business you don't know anything except you want something.

Well, Quixtar makes the rules here and they have the resources to back them up.  It is so simple:  Get in and follow the rules or GET OUT.  Or don't sign up in the first place.

Write your own Bible and start your own church.  There will be a few join you.  Heck, you may have a going concern like David Karesh had in Waco.  He preached from the same book as my preacher does.  He just had different beliefs, that's all.   Was he wrong?  I think yes.

All you gotta do is what is right.  How hard is that?

Tex said:
August 30, 2007 4:25 PM | #

Beryl,

All good points, but for most IBO's, doing what is right is not easy to determine.

There are existing personal relationships and trust between the person who sponsored us, not much business experience, and the upline constantly preaches "the shortcut to success" is the tools.

So doing what is right is not as easy as it looks.

time and money said:
August 31, 2007 5:41 AM | #

Let me understand this....

Someone crossline from me messes up and I get a sponsoring freeze.  (1st offense)

Someone crossline from me messes up and I don't get my bonus.  (2nd offense)

Some independent minded goofball messes up a 3rd time and MY business gets terminated.  (3rd offense)

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this picture?

Tex said:
August 31, 2007 12:06 PM | #

time and money,

No, I have the same problem as you do, I think. All you should have to do is prove you provided your group the correct information and your training and personal actions are consistent with the correct information. You have no control over what they actaully do. In fact, if the downline decided they didn't like their Platinum, this would be a great way of getting them terminated.

Moderator,

Please respond. This is a very bad rule in its current form and needs clarification.

Beryl Nichols said:
August 31, 2007 2:58 PM | #

Tex,

I can't imagine that the corp would terminate an IBO under those circumstances.  They are not willy nilly about this.  Look how long they worked with Orrin & Chris and the others before taking action.  They have never been in the habit of throwing the baby out with the bath water, although some would not agree with that.  I'm just going from my personal experiences.

On the other issue of doing what is right.  Good point.

I always tell people to be careful who they turn their brain over to.  Also, anyone selling a system that is a "Shortcut to Success" is simply a liar.  There are no shortcuts to success.  And it is not EASY.  It is HARD! and I think most people would appreciate being told the truth without the sugar coating.....I know one thing for sure.....they last longer!

Keep the Faith

Beryl Nichols said:
August 31, 2007 2:59 PM | #

Tex,

Do you know where Circle Back, TX is?  Down around Muleshoe?

Tex said:
September 1, 2007 12:57 AM | #

Beryl,

I hear you, but that's not how the rule is worded.

I also agree success is hard work, but our microwave world wants everything now, and the tool dealers are only too happy to feed off of this very natural human tendency and stuff their pockets full of tool profit bucks.

Do you mean THIS Circle Back? It isn't even labelled on my map, only shows where the roads that intersect.  There's also some great town names in your part of the State: Friendship, Farewell (right before you get to New Mexico), Progress, Goodland, Earth, etc., in addition to the ones you mentioned and mentioned below.

CIRCLE BACK , TEXAS

Bailey County, Texas Panhandle

FM 298 and 3397

4 miles from Needmore

66 miles NW of Lubbock

Population: 10

History in a Pecan Shell

The name comes from a ranch whose brand was a circle on the back of cattle.

From 1918 to 1954 the settlement a dozen or so houses and a six-grade school. Naturally there was a store/ post office and a gas station. In 1949 the community, reached it’s high water mark of about 100 people.

When the store burned in 1954 it pretty much finished the town – since it was also the post office.

By 1980 the population was 49 and a few years later only the Baptist minister and his family was left.

How many of the 10 are in your family, Beryl?

jthompson said:
September 1, 2007 1:55 AM | #

stacking, hiding the Quixtar name, etc....  ?

I will be at next TEAM meeting to find out for myself and will report back online.

Tex said:
September 1, 2007 3:32 PM | #

jthompson,

It will be interesting to see what changes may have been made recently.

The Big Apple said:
September 2, 2007 2:20 PM | #

A word about the profitability of depth vs. width.

From Quixtar’s standpoint, they always pay out exactly the same Performance Bonus, regardless of the structure of the organization.  Think of it this way:  Every organization has a Platinum, and regardless of whether the Platinum writes the bonus checks, or Quixtar does it for him, the most they pay out is 25% of the BV (business volume) of the Platinum-ship.  Except for non-Platinums close to the top of line-of-sponsorship right under Quixtar, the Leadership bonus is always paid out, which is 4% of BV.  And most of the time, Depth, Emerald, and Diamond bonuses are always paid out, again the exception being when the LOS gets up near the Corporation.

So for all intents and purposes, Quixtar pays the same amount of bonus dollars for all products sold.  Differences in organizational structure does not change Quixtar’s profitability.

[to be continued]

The Big Apple said:
September 2, 2007 2:21 PM | #

[continued from previous post]

The true issue with width vs. depth, is how is the Performance Bonus spread around.  Or putting it another way, how much does the little guy make vs. the big guy.

Organizations that teach extreme depth also rely on the Perf. Bonus to be the first profit, rather than the first profit that is described in the Plan, which is retail profit.  They keep the focus on organization building rather than a mix of product sales and organization building.  IBOs are told they need the tool system to build the organization, and the tool system teaches little to nothing about selling product, other than personal use.

With extreme depth building, people are told that they will be deferring their profitability until the long term.  You can’t get profitable, even at the Platinum level, this way.  You must wait until Emerald.  How many people have the perseverance or the bank account to do that?  I believe they were recruited to make extra money, and at no investment.  

In the meantime, the existing upline Emerald and Diamond do profit from extreme depth building, especially the Diamond.  The Emerald is eligible for the Emerald Bonus, Depth Bonus, and Emerald Profit Sharing (under the Marketing Plan), as well as the Emerald Growth Bonus in the optional Quixtar Business Incentives or QBI.  The big difference comes in when you start factoring in the FAA credits, which you must be a qualified Diamond to receive.  The new downline Platinum, who is barely making a profit on his business due to the extreme depth structure, supplies the upline Diamond with more FAA points, which gets him the big annual and one-time cash awards from within the QBI.

This is how extreme depth building benefits the big guys over the little guys.  And this is all with  Quixtar money, not tool money.  

What hasn’t been mentioned is the practice of transferring volume into a leg to make it go Platinum.  This goes hand-in-hand with the year-long strategy of strategically building a leg with stacking.  Build the leg, transfer the volume into it, and viola, more FAA points for the Diamond.

Next year, do the same thing with a different leg.  Even more FAA points for the Diamond

This is the kind of thing that will have the regulators on Quixtar’s back rather quickly.  By prohibiting stacking, Quixtar is protecting this business model for everybody, because in this case, one bad apple will spoil it for the whole bunch.

Rich C said:
September 2, 2007 3:21 PM | #

Money, Money, Money,

Bonus money, mark-up money, leadership money, all of that must go past the IRS before it gets to you.

Product prices is based on the overall cost of product, money for raw materials, research, manufacture, manpower,the list goes on.

Team broke the contract that they signed to be IBO's.

They started another business using the same line of people sponsered to sell products with no retail customers. AKA as pyramiding.

Rich

paul said:
September 5, 2007 1:31 AM | #

One of the main reasons we were told Quixtar was trying to realign itself with the Amway name was because quixtar had not become a household name the way they had hoped. One of the biggest problems from an IBO's standpoint with the old Amway system was that everyone promoted themselves as Amway distributors. So every bad thing that happened in associate with the name Amway affected everyone. With quixtar the image has always been you are in business for yourself powered by quixtar as your own commercials have stated. By powered I assumed it to mean supplied to and supported by. So what is the problem with showing the plan to someone and stating quixtar is the supplier. This is how we have always shown the plan. We do not want people focusing on the name quixtar when presenting them the plan. We show them the concept and get them thinking right, then if they are interested in the concept and want to register we have to reveal it is Quixtar. So I do not understand why Quixtar is complaining about how TEAM was telling people Quixtar was a supplier. Aren't they? This is one of the ways we teach people to handle negative press. Say quixtar is just the supplier of products for my company and negative you hear is usually about another business owner and not Quixtar. So unless you heard negative about my business then it does not mean much. If you went to a McDonalds and it was filthy would you look at McDonalds as a bad business opportunity or would you say that one was poorly managed? 99% of the people understand this and totally ignore the negative media after. 99% of the time I go all the way through the plan without ever saying the name Quixtar. I say supply site. What rule is this violating? People can not be tricked into Quixtar. Wether you register online or on paper you see Quixtar.

Katie Pearsall said:
September 6, 2007 3:27 PM | #

Editor's Note:

paul -- Quixtar is much more than a supplier. Quixtar has a contractual relationship with each and every IBO; Quixtar provides, maintains and administers the IBO Compensation Plan; Quixtar provides awards, recognition, and funding for the IBO Compensation Plan; and Quixtar provides the infrastructure for the web site, just to name a few. In short, Quixtar provides the business opportunity and referring to Quixtar as merely a supplier misrepresents our relationship with IBOs and violates Rule 4.12.1.

rdknyvr said:
September 6, 2007 4:02 PM | #

Paul, it's even more than what Katie says above. In the LOA I'm affiliated with, we talk about the "3 C's" as I know you in TEAM do. The issue I've had with my LOA is the same thing that I hear you wondering about. We were more recently taught (by our system, not my specific upline) to say that the business opportunity is "TEAM INA" NOT QUIXTAR, and that Quixtar is just the supplier. In contrast, always talk about Quixtar upfront, but I've heard many of our Diamonds say from stage and on training CDs/DVDs that Quixtar is just the supplier -- the Content and the Commerce -- and TEAM INA provides the Community building concepts and platform.

In reality, if you look at the history of the LOAs, which include organizations like TEAM, INA, N21, WWDB, Yager, BWW, etc. etc, they were initially sponsored/created by Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel. I know that's an over-simplification, and the actual incorporated tool companies that associate with each of those are separate non-Quixtar training entities. But my point -- the Community building process was started by Rich and Jay, with improvements and modifications by others over time -- it was not a TEAM creation, or created by any other LOA.

So I would respectfully suggest that you were mis-taught about the roles and relationships around Quixtar. I can understand the steam that's coming from some people around Quixtar's claim that the IBOs "belong" to them, but given the history, in legal terms that's correct. I've posted a bit more on that at this link, where I'm responding a post from MPZ: http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/09/03/IBO-Independence.aspx#9650

I hope this makes a bit of sense, whether you agree with me or not. Blessings on you, whatever choice you decide to make. :)

Josh said:
September 6, 2007 6:13 PM | #

Katie,

I believe the word "supplier" has way too vague a meaning in these contexts.  Now, I believe what you are referring to when people use the word supplier, it is meant in the context of only supplying a product, and if it is explained as such is a violation of that rule.

However, when used in a proper context that word can speak volumes about the creditability of Quixtar.  "Quixtar is our supplier, supplying partner, but for far more than just products.  They provide.......insert any number of things they do for us IBOs, customer service, compensation, infrastructure, web presence, top notch products, corporate partnerships, etc. etc.  you could go on and on."

When it is spoken like that it has a better definition than the latter.

Katie, if that isn't true, what word or words (in short) would you use, as an IBO, to explain Quixtar to a prospect or customer for that matter? Remember in one or two words!

Piet Strydom said:
September 7, 2007 6:52 AM | #

TO Josh, As far as I know, the preferred term is "Quixtar business opportunity."

Josh said:
September 7, 2007 2:36 PM | #

Piet,

I don't know if that is true.  I have posted this very question to Kia as well some time ago, and received no comment on the matter.

If they come out and say how they want us to phrase it, I will be all for it and use it.  Using the term supplier just makes it much easier to explain to prospects.  Again, with the proper context and INCREDIBLE validity when you mention the word.

When you look at it here is what they do but not limited too by any means.

1) They supply the compensation.

2) They supply the great products

3) They supply the fantastic website

4) They supply the award winning customer service

5) They supply the infrastructure and technology

6) They supply the IBO product training and knowledge

I mean I could go on and on....but the bottom line is they supply or provide all of this for us, for what?  A measly 50 bucks registration?  Perhaps service provider, opportunity provider.  You could use all sorts of terms.  It will all fall back on how you define that term: With the creditability they deserve or just a passing thought, is what will violate that rule.

paul said:
September 11, 2007 7:53 AM | #

first off I am not a TEAM member I am Yager which is why I was chiming in. This is not just an Orrin issue. I know all that Quixtar does the exact way we describe the relationship is that Quixtar is a massive online mall and we can buy a door then drive traffic through it. Having to explain every aspect of what Quixtar does is kind of rediculous. We do not say Quixtar is a supplier we say it is the supply side of our companies and all that entails.

rdknyvrr said:
September 11, 2007 10:45 AM | #

Paul, you're correct in a sense... most systems are teaching people to say something like that... these are all metaphors designed to create an easy to comprehend visual picture of what we do and the relationships involved. I personally like using the "3 C's" from Michael Dell that Orrin and crew initially brought to our attention, and if used correctly, works well, as long as you don't "divorce" the Quixtar piece off as if it's merely some independent supplier... Quixtar did initially create the "Community" building part, and the training systems have taken the role of teaching and supporting that in more detail, with the contractually agreed to condition that training materials must be reviewed and authorized by Quixtar before use.

But the message is incomplete and in fact not accurate if you don't at some point in the initial presentation make it explicit that your business -- whatever name you call it -- is engaged in distributing Quixtar products and that the core contract is with Quixtar, not your training system. The phrase I like to include to position this is "... a franchise-like business opportunity scaled to the individual, developed/provided by Quixtar." And you can go on to talk about the team support provided by you/your business/training BSM system... in business for yourself but not by yourself, etc. etc.

MGA said:
September 11, 2007 12:35 PM | #

I wanted to carefully consider my words in making this comment.

According to Alticor, my sponsor’s sponsor’s sponsor has been terminated. Later in the same month that this had occurred, my sponsor’s sponsor received a “threatening” e-mail (his description) telling him he was to be suspended if he used TEAM BSMs. When he asked who or what BSMs he was “allowed” to use, he received no reply. Faced with the concept of building a business with no BSM support and increasing lack of faith in the factory, he has now resigned. My Sponsor, who has worked with his sponsor for as long as I know of (more than 25 years), has decided to also resign rather than support the actions that have brought us to this juncture..

If I’ve got my LOS correctly (and I think I do), I am now sponsored personally by Dexter and Birdie Yager. I do not have and would not claim a “personal” relationship with Dex. I doubt sincerely that at this point in his career, he is going to come up to New England to be of any assistance to me and my group of 5 people. (Or is the factory going to insist that he do that? Or perhaps the lesson learned from the TEAM debacle is that the next revision of the rules will dictate that an IBO may not resign if they have any sponsored IBOs still existing?)

So while I appreciate the viewpoint that the factory prefers a personal relationship between IBOs, the scenario I find myself in clearly indicates that this is not always going to be the case as a business develops.  While I agree that someone should not “steal” (my word choice) somebody else’s prospect just for managed placement and profitability, if all parties are in agreement and understand the business objectives, what difference is it if the parties had no prior personal involvement? The objective is to create a sustainable marketing platform not to just have a bunch of friends hanging out together.

Regardless, it would appear that I have currently been “stacked” through no fault of my own. Should I expect my e-mail of reprimand or is Dexter going to get it?

Jeffrey said:
September 11, 2007 7:56 PM | #

I guess you could contact your new upline sponsor and say, "I am now a new personal IBO of yours because of my upline's terminations and resignations. I would like you to help me build my business." I'll bet you will get a response. If not, contact the company and they will contact your new sponsor for you.

rdknyvr said:
September 11, 2007 8:04 PM | #

MGA, very interesting and thoughtful post. Without pretending to be able to provide any answers, the only piece of advice I could offer is to sit tight and see what develops, unless deep in your heart you really want to be somewhere else. I'm guessing that at some point fairly soon the Company (factory, whatever) will be doing its best to get some options in place for you. And you never know, maybe Dexter Yager would enjoy the opportunity to provide some assistance to someone who is as serious as you seem to be, or at least point one of the very good leaders in his organization in your direction. Withhold final judgment and see what develops. And at some point, set everything you think you know and feel aside and have a good laugh at the whole situation, even if only for therapeutic purposes... there's got to be some humour somewhere in all of this!!! :)

Best wishes :)

j.mac said:
September 13, 2007 11:47 AM | #

Quixtar/amway is functioning like most large  corperations who maintain centralised control after a long history of initial success followed by a flat period, and then decline.The layers on management thicken, Legal departments become more pervasive, the overall company functions more like a beurocracy. The initial vision is lost, and the corp becomes more concerned withyrying to protect turf rather than change with the times and keep a growth focus. I have been astounded at the lack of vision at Q/A for the last 5 years, product pricing, ignoring what actually worked and benafited the most people. And now the draconian rule changes and the swich back to the Amway name without consulting the IBOAI. Ignoring the Boos hisses and jeers at the so called town meetings is beyond me. But then again why be surprised. I think Mr. Davidson summed it up when he said "I dont care if we loose the North American business We have plenty of business elsewhere". Ibelieve his wish will eventaully come true. And that is very sad indeed. The founding families of Amway did some great things in business, in charity, in politics. Its a shame that there children have lost sight of leadership and allowed corperate bean conters and lawyers take over the company. If you stay with them good luck. If your employed by them maybe you should start packing for China.

Neil Joseph said:
September 13, 2007 12:12 PM | #

You know its interesting reading all of these comments.  Its amazing how so many people are blaming Quixtar or blaming their LOS or even their association for their failure in "their business".  I became an IBO 7 months ago and in August I reached the 7500 Silver level.  In about 12 months I should be a new Emerald.  You know why?  Because this is "my" business.  My success and failure depends on me.  I have to go out there and do the work.  I have to evaluate what is best for my business.  Too many IBOs believe that they are in some type of "clan" or "group".  When are IBOs going to learn that they are an INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNER.  Too many times we depend on an upline to spoon feed us like a child.  If its one thing I learned from my upline Founders Double Diamond John Crowe is that this is a business about helping people.  The more people you genuinely help the more you eventually make.  Too many IBOs come into the business thinking otherwise.  How do you think you make money? You sponsor some people and "hope" they do well?  C'mon, the reason I went Silver is a short space of time is because I helped several persons become 1000s - 2500s in a shorter space of time.  I taught them and they learnt not to make the same mistakes as me and my uplines.  So they saw success faster.  I suggest that everyone read a book about helping people and how to be concerned about the welfare of people.  Those who get plugged into that thought process will not have to hang out on blogs complaining about their failure in this business.

Tom Spivey said:
September 13, 2007 2:48 PM | #

Bravo Neil!  My thoughts exactly.  I wish you every success in the future.  You are leading by example.  I hope everyone reads your comments.

j.mac said:
September 13, 2007 6:26 PM | #

thats nice neilits good you believe in amway while your business is still very small

vg said:
September 15, 2007 12:30 AM | #

Somebody doesn't understand that one cannot go Platinum one legged...you have to have 2500PV outside of the 7500 leg in order to qualify as a Platinum.  That is why TEAM taught "Power Player"

It also means one doesn't have to wait for depth volume to reach 7500 to add width and participate in the increased income width brings.  2 of the  issues being debated at length here appear to be: Q/A income and tool income.  Since the SA 4400 shows the former, there should be no debates.  Since Q/A has forbidden the tool developing entities to reveal their payout schedules this should be a NON ISSUE.  I wonder if Tex is pushing this issue trying to coerce Q/A to take the lid off?

Canadian IBO 2 said:
September 22, 2007 9:02 PM | #

Has anyone noticed the new format for Q registration forms with the sponsor listed at the top? Quixtar/Amway isn't concerned about the mass resignations when they apparently must be planning to open North America to the rest of the world and anyone can come here and build an amway business.  If this is a wrong assumption, please correct me.  But that seems to be the handwriting on the wall from my perspective.

Jean said:
September 29, 2007 2:41 PM | #

Bravo Neil.

Thanks for your encouraging words!  Complaining and blaming never result in success.

rdknyvr said:
September 30, 2007 12:49 PM | #

Canadian IBO 2, that's an interesting observation but why not? If someone living in another country has qualified to sponsor in North America, directly or via a foster sponsor living here, why shouldn' they be alllowed to build a business here? North America currently accounts for about 40% of the world's consumption (that figure may be inexact but roughly accurate). But in the Alticor world, Quixtar (North America) accounts for perhaps 15% of Alticor's networking revenue. So why not improve accessibility  to anyone in any market who is a strong business builder to do so freely -- free-er enterprise!!! -- in any market they wish? By the same token, you and I can sponsor and build in any market we want if we have the ambition and drive to do so...

Canadian IBO 2 said:
October 4, 2007 12:23 PM | #

rdknyvr,

From a business sense, improving accessibility should be part of the overall transformation process.  I'm not saying that it shouldn't happen or that I am against it.    I'm just inferring that IBO's who are procrastinating (like me) need to get their butt in gear and build their business ASAP or the train is going to leave the station without them (and me).  Which leads to the question: if North America accounts for 40% of the world's consumption and Quixtar accounts for only 15% of Alticor's networking revenue, what's wrong with this picture?

rdknyvr said:
October 6, 2007 2:54 AM | #

Canadian IBO 2, I'm very much in agreement with your question. I've been posting here since last spring on just that including the stagnant North American growth over the past 10 years, and a lot of other issues. Most of the questions and issues thrown up by the Team folks in their recently dismissed California suit, ie. the data and depositions, was available as I've noted, to someone doing the analysis. But what has really sold me on continuing is all the things happening around the Transformation... all of the issues I had and more are being addressed and resolved or at least being listened to. I didn't like the declaration that the name will be changed and how that was handled, but it's not a make or break issue for me. I'm totally sold on what Steve Lieberman was brought in to do, and my research on his background indicates he has the prior tract record and proven ability to do it.

If you get a chance, check out this book: Trading Up, by Michael Silverstein. Indirectly, it describes what Alticor ought to be doing in terms of retail strategy, and to me the indications of the past few months suggest strongly that Alticor is going the right way.

I've also done a lot of research on competing direct sales opportunities, and no one is anywhere near what Alticor has in terms of product lines -- existing and in the pipeline, and quality, uniqueness of science-based health options, which is my focus. For me the one I love the most and the one with still the greatest potential is Personalized Health, and I've blogged a lot on it here and over at IBOFightBack's site: http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/

Another perspective I consider, that directly relates to your question is how Warren Buffett invests. He looks for companies that have been underperforming but have strong basic fundamentals, are in potential growth industries and have good management teams. I see all of those factors at Quixtar/Amway, and someone is going to be the person(s) to have the insight to see it and take advantage of it. I go back, strangely enough, to a DVD done by Orrin Woodward in 2005 on team building and building communities, and toward the end he says something like, "Would someone please..." and goes on to suggest, and actually calls out the challenge, that others will build even bigger and faster that he and Chris did at the beginning, and I believe it can be done, but in the re-engineered  business model Alticor has just put together... new in terms of the adjustments, which I like and believe are going to work.

To quote from a Chris Brady tape, called "What we do for a living," and I'm paraphrasing: "We don't get what we want and we don't get what we deserve, but we get what we expect." I totally agree, and am applying that to my "Alticor" business.

So to your thoughtful and insightful question, "What's wrong with this picture?" Lots HAS been wrong, but my own analysis, done independent of Orrin, Chris, Randy, Chuck, etc. etc. came up with the same or similar data but I reach a different conclusion... of course, I haven't been planning my own direct sales organization for many many months as the Team leaders were (see "Pirate's" posts about 3 weeks ago on IBOFightBack's site... he is on the Team leadership group and made this claim) so my motivation to leave or stay is based on more objective factors.

Finally, I have a question for you: I'm guessing from one of your earlier comments that you have been affiliated with Team... if so, was it directly or through a group like True North/Mark Crawford's group that joined Team awhile back? Just curious, because there is a very good support option coming into place for former True North people who want to consider continuing with Quixtar.

Blessings and best wishes to you and your wife... I'll watch for your reply here.

Canadian IBO 2 said:
October 8, 2007 8:40 AM | #

rdknyvr,

I'm short on time, so this response will be brief.  I am/was in Legacy (I'm originally from the states.  That's where and when I first saw the business). Then Legacy decided to merge with Team.  My upline (& close friend) was concerned that Team, in their quest for a million people, would decide to bolt from Quixtar and go off on a different venture.  Well, he was right.  And here we are.  It appears that my upline mentor, Platinum, and Diamond will go (somewhere).  That's where it stands as of now.  Building depth is great when the entire team is engaged and building.  However, when the team stops building, depth only doesn't work well, and doesn't pay well.

My time is up for today.  More tomorrow.  Have a great day!  Happy Columbus Day (in the states).  Happy Thanksgiving here in Canada!

rdknyvr said:
October 8, 2007 1:33 PM | #

Canadian IBO 2, thanks for the insight. The 'system' I subscribe to -- INA (InterNet Associates), based largely on the West Coast -- almost merged with Team the week before Team filed the lawsuit. INA immediately pulled back of course. But if they had continued with Team (and we do use parts of the Team approach to depth, within the Quixtar business rules), I would have bailed on them immediately to stay with Quixtar, and I don't think it would have affected my friendships in INA, at least not from my perspective.

One of the problems -- in practice -- with doing depth strictly the way Team taught it was that there was little emphasis on building a strong First Circle through retail customers, and by that I mean sales to non-IBOs, whether at "full retail" or at IBO pricing. I'm sure that many many people in Team were building retail or non-IBO sales, but from the Team suit claiming that ALL prices were too high (some are, in my opinion, although I've come across a number of IBOs who doing just fine selling at those prices) and that non-IBO retail selling was "impossible." If that's what top leadership was saying, then I have to assume that "rank and file" were probably not being taught much on how to sell retail and thus your observation that depth by itself doesn't pay well. And Quixtar, by the way, had been saying this to Orrin and Chris all along.

I do have a favorite hobby horse I promote, and that's Personalized Health. I don't think I'm "the cat's meow" on retail or PH, so take me with a grain of salt when I promote this as I will in a moment. But I think the key to approaching a profitable Quixtar/Amway business is to find a product line or niche that excites you, take the time to learn about it and gain some confidence and knowledge on it... this is not, or should not be a "consume and register others to consume" business. In fact, it HAS tended in that direction for the past couple of decades, and the exciting challenge now is to turn that around to where a majority of sales are coming from non-IBOs. And I think it really is possible.

So I've pointed to this before, but if you are interested in checking out the Personalized Health line, a number of us have been contributing to a discussion thread over on IBOFightBack's site... read it through for some possible ideas: http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,91/func,view/id,7228/catid,10/

Blessings for a great day!!! :)

Canadian IBO 2 said:
October 9, 2007 8:28 AM | #

rdknyvr,

Thanks again for the info.  I checked out IBOFightBack's site and the link that you provided.  Guess I have some catching up (reading) to do.  Personalized Health does intrigue me.  

Do you know any more information about the "support option" that you mentioned?  What form of support?

Can this business grow to highly profitable levels within this re-engineered business model?  I've been told by upline that the re-engineered model makes that impossible.

Have a great day!  Looking forward to your insights!

rdknyvr said:
October 9, 2007 11:57 AM | #

Canadian IBO 2, I too have to head out for the day. I'll reply later with what I know, but the bottom line is that I think the new approach is MORE profitable. Hope your day is a good one. :)

rdknyvr said:
October 10, 2007 3:29 AM | #

C IBO 2, I'm not sure what exactly in the tuned up business building model would make it more difficult to grow to a highly profitable level. If one is considering eventual potential from business tools as the major source of profit, that may be true, but is that the core purpose of having a long term sustainable, consumer driven Quixtar business?

What Alticor seems to be doing is structuring the business building process in such a way that building a retail sales base -- call it First Circle -- with non IBO customers is unavoidable, and a core piece of the business, as it was in the Amway start up days, the days when Orrin and co. claim it was "still good." Did you know that when Amway first started, it was required that you had to have 25 customers BEFORE you could start sponsoring? The model of the past 25 years has tended to be "use and sponsor others to do the same." And from that came relatively high sponsoring rates but poor retention rates. And the company seeing IBOs as the primary end user consumer. Check out this post by someone named The Big Apple... it's #75 in this thread. Not everyone would agree with all of his points, but he provides some interesting history and background: http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/10/05/perspection-effect/#comment-23579

If you've been following all the Transformation announcements, you'll see that they are doing at least three things to make genuine retailing realistic and easier: training through Quixtar U (will be extended and improved over time), which can be augemented by the LOAs. More retail-competitive products in all retail consumer consumable areas. Ongoing research and intro of high value, high profit, highly desirable products in both the Health and the Beauty categories. So the "too expensive to retail and can only sell at IBO prices" theory is out the door, or on the way out.

The hiring of Steve Lieberman underlines these points, and lots of us have mentioned that.

The other key thing to remember is that a major strength of the Quixtar business is the range of consumer products. One must be prepared to learn even at a minimal level some product knowledge about a favorite line -- health, beauty, home care, etc. and learn to sell it. Yes, sell it. And then once you have a customer sold on one product line's excellence, you can introduce additional "anyway" products to build "share of customer." It's always easier in any business to go back to existing customers and encourage them to commit a larger share of their budget to additional products than find new ones, although you need to do the latter too.

Once you've figured out the above for a good First Circle, the next key is to teach others you've sponsored to do the same. I'm not saying anything new, but from what many have said, it seems that teaching retailing was not a highlight of Team's training system.

The other issue that's been brought up regarding ability to sell and create a profitable, potentially "job-leaving" business, is the name change. I didn't like how that was introduced, but I've been trying it out in presentations, in one on one's and so far I have yet to run into a problem. I think most of that comes back to your own attitude... if you think it's a bad name, you'll project that feeling and the customer or potential business associate will pick that up and not consider or reconsider their perceptions. And as someone (HalC) posted the other day on the IBOAI blog, if you ever want to expand and have an international business, it WILL be Amway, so what's the big deal? And regardless of the name, the focus of the advertising is on the BRANDS -- Nutrilite, Artistry, XS, etc.

At the end of the day, the Team split was motivated by leadership's desire to start their own business, and these reasons were excuses to justify that, including the unprovable assertion that you can't build a profitable big business under the new guidelines.

In re-reading the above, I'm not sure I've proved anything either. But I don't know how one can say 'a priori' that the new model makes a big and profitable business impossible. If it is just the old way of "consume and sponsor others to consume", yes. But if you commit to the reality of building up to 10-15 corporately serviced customers (ie. on Ditto), and teach others to do the same, I think you can be hugely profitable, in keeping with your commitment, dream and work ethic, and building your business structure in a balanced way... balance between the security of depth and the profitability of width.

For me, my path runs through Personalized Health as my core area of interest. And I'm also realizing that I need to spend less time blogging and more doing it :) If you do want to investigate it, I would suggest you order from the Quixtar site two DVDs: The Quest for Perfection (400628), and Personalized Health: the Next Step (400650). And read all the free downloads under:

Find Products > Product Support Materials > Health > Free Downloads.

And also the streaming videos along with Personalized Health, and do your questionnaire. No other company has anything like it. :)

Regarding support, I don't know exactly what's happening but if you were to email the IBOAI, I'm sure they would help you make connections with someone or another group in your area that is building and getting through accreditation. Or post to the IBOAI Bog Administrator... he will absolutely make sure your request is passed on and responded to.

When I read through everything above, I feel kind of like a windbag, I don't know if it's helpful. But in the end, consider motives of people trying to persuade you in either direction, do your own due diligence on the products and processes in light of what you and your wife want to do with your lives, and then make a commitment.

Hope this helps :)

PS... forgot one of the biggest things... read through the 2008 QBI... Quixtar Business Incentives for all the new $$$. Even though some of the biggest bonuses are for achieving and holding higher pins, there's still lots for new people. And watch the new Quixtar webcast a couple of times too: http://www.podiumsystems.com/hosted/quixtar/leadertoleader.asp?r=1

PS #2, regarding Team people who do respect their uplines who have resigned, but are staying with Quixtar, read the post by "bc2047" at this link... you'll have to scroll down for it: http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/component/option,com_fireboard/func,view/id,8011/catid,27/

rdknyvr said:
October 10, 2007 3:38 AM | #

C IBO 2, one more thought!!! :) If you have some of the TEAM sponsoring and training materials, don't throw them out. There is much good in many of them, and if you make some adjustments around building a First Circle of non-IBO retail customers, and observe the revised guidelines around sponsoring (not hard to do) you'll do well. I'm not saying that as any kind of an expert, but in case you find yourself in a situation where you have to move ahead on your own without a support group for awhile.

rdknyvr said:
October 10, 2007 12:01 PM | #

C IBO 2, check out this link and read Jeffrey's comments down a ways... he's a great guy, committed to developing a good retail base. Anything by him or by Bridgett is always fun and helpful to read in the area of retailing. By the way, you don't necessarily need to focus as strongly as he is on retailing, you can still build strong networks as long as there is still some retail by each person being done, which you need to model before you can teach it to your network. http://insidequixtar.opportunityzone.com/2007/10/07/Victory-for-all-IBOs.aspx#comments

Great day to you!!! :)

J Hunter said:
October 15, 2007 3:57 AM | #

i have been looking into Quixtar and the business model.I understand the main advantage in depth building is the psychological security one feels  as part of a line. But suppose in a line of 3 close friends,

A

|

B

|

C

A and Bl put their money (100pv worth) into the last person's account, so that he has 300pv (after his own 100pv), wouldn't in essence A and B also have 300pv, and so in this depth model they are all making the same money back?

In this form i think depth model can be advantageous among friends

Canadian IBO 2 said:
October 16, 2007 11:37 AM | #

rdknyvr,

Just for your info,  that support option that you mentioned in one of your previous postings:  Quixtar has responded.  I am so impressed with their timely response.  

Bridgett said:
October 16, 2007 1:52 PM | #

J Hunter,

You can't "put their money" into the last person's "account".

It doesn't work that way. Are you saying that C would doing all the ordering for A & B? If that's the case, then C would make the majority of the money.

Also, this isn't about self-consumption. This is about moving product, INDEPENDANTLY, of other IBOs in your organization.

If each IBO consumed/sold 100 PV, then this is what it would look like:

C is at 100 PV

B is at 200 PV

A is at 300 PV

A would earn more money than the other two IBOs.

C earns 3% of 290 BV (if the PV/BV ratio is 1:2.9)

B earnes 3% of 290 BV

A earns 6% of 290 BV (his BV), plus 3% of 580 BV (his downline BV).

And, the point is, that C at ANY time could move more volume than his upline--either by

a) consuming more

b) retailing more

c) sponsoring more who do a & b

And therefore could earn more money than his upline. This is why this business, with it's AUTHENTIC comp plan is not a pyramid. In a pyramid, the amount of money you make is based not on your efforts, but your placement in the pyramid.

If C did 2500 PV,

B did 100 PV

A did 100 PV,

All would be in the 18% bonus bracket. But C would keep the majority of the money because he's getting 18% on 2500 PV x 2.9 BV = $1,305*

While A and B are getting 18% on their 100 PV x 2.9 BV=$52.20

*note that the 2500 PV C generates may not be all personal use/retailing. Let's say he has four legs that are at 500 PV, and he's doing 500PV. Then out of that $1,305, his downline would be getting a piece of that.

If they are each at 500 PV, then they are in the 6% bracket. So they'd each get 6% of 1,450 BV (500 PV x 2.9)=$87.

So, 4 legs x $87 = $348. C would make $957 ($1305-$347).

Remember, the cumulative PV of your whole group determines the percentage bonus bracket you are in. You get the FULL percentage of the BV on your personal circle (personal consumption/retail) and you get the DIFFERENTIAL percentage of your bracket minus you downline's bracket on all their BV.

J Hunter said:
October 17, 2007 3:20 AM | #

Wait Bridgett,

the informational said that you earn every PV that your downline makes.

Thats why when you do 100 PV (lets assume this means 250BV) and your downline does 7800PV,

u make that 7900PV which means $2700 a month, by only putting in 100PV

Im just saying that instead of branching out so much to reach the 7900PV, you keep it all in one line, put all the PV in the bottom account, and everyone upline gets the same PV

The reason its not a pyramid is because once you hit platinum, you get those percentages of the different branches you have, and so with more platinum braches you can surpass the guy above you.

this is how i understood the system.

The guy said that at 100 PV, u make $7.50

at 700PV, u make like $100

at 3100PV, u make something like $400

at 7900PV, u make $2700

i forgot the exact numbers, but they are a good approximation.

i guess reading over what u said it makes sense, they didn't really explain BV at all, nor the way  your payback is calculated. If what u said is true, then it looks like its more advantageous to build as broad as you can, since that way the people below you make less money comparatively.

Bridgett said:
October 17, 2007 2:50 PM | #

Hi J Hunter,

The PV on your downline is added up to determine the bonus bracket you are in--3% to 25% (and actually now up to 29%).

But you don't get to keep all that money that you don't generate.

If you are doing 100 PV in your circle (personal use and/or retail) and you have ONE leg,

and that ONE leg has 7,800 PV running down it,

then you do not make $2,700.

Would would make $72.50

(100 PV x 2.9 X 25% = $72.50)

Quixtar would pay:

7,900 x 2.9  x 25% = $5,727.50

BUT, all that money (except for your $72.50) gets passed downline, and distributed all the way down the leg.

I wish I could show you the Business Reference Guide--pages A2-A4--the new one. It visually explains how the money works. I am unable to send a link, because you have to be logged in to Quixtar.com to view it.

It's a fantastic comp plan, and sometimes, for a variety of reasons, people do not explain the nuts and bolts of it.

*sigh*

Moderator: If people want to understand the Comp Plan, since the person who showed J Hunter has not done an adequate job explaining, where can they go for that information?

Particularly the second way (the Performance Bonus schedule and the differential) making money when you have volume generated by those whom you sponsor.

Editor's Note:

The best place to read about the plan is on the Quixtar site, under Quixtar & The Opportunity > IBO Plan at https://www.quixtar.com/about/plan/default.aspx?pid=648&ctg=861

Anna Bryce

Bridgett said:
October 17, 2007 6:49 PM | #

Hi Anna,

The link you provided is NOT available unless logged in to Quixtar.com.

Like I said, I'd show J Hunter pages A2-A4 of the Biz Ref Guide, but it's only available for viewing by IBOs--just like your link.

So where can J Hunter go if he's NOT an IBO?

The only thing available on the Quixtar website, in which you DON'T have to be logged it, is the 4-page IBO Comp Plan.

But this does NOT explain the DIFFERENTIAL money one receives from downline (example: If my TOTAL group is at the 25% level, and I have a leg (ONE group) who is at the 15% level, then I earn the difference--10%--on that one group’s Business Volume).

And it's this crucial detail that I believe causes the greatest opportunity for some IBOs not to be forthright regarding the Comp Plan.

And causes the greatest confusion regarding depth vs width profitability.

What can we do to insure that people (potential IBOs) can get the “real scoop” if a current IBO is bit communicating (for innocent reasons, or not innocent reasons) the real deal?

Tim Stevens said:
October 29, 2007 8:16 PM | #

the biggest problem that everybody has today with retailing is that the prices are not in line with the rest of the retail world!  30-40 years ago when retailing products was the main option, it made sense. Today, not really!!!  Q/A needs to get a clue, & pull their heads out of the sand!  I am a (now) former-IBO because of this and Q/A's lack of intelligence in dealing with this MAJOR problem!

Bryan Isensee said:
December 31, 2007 3:11 PM | #

If it wasn't for my manager coming up to me yesterday and asking me what organization i was in because i was drinking an XS i wouldn't care.  He is in TEAM...and it sounds like he is been given a lot of wrong info by TEAM.  He seems excited about the direction which really doesn't bother me at all....good luck.   TEAM has been doing things that make other organizations doing it the right way look bad for awhile.  If you don't like it Quit...its not like you were going to do anything but sell tapes and products anyways..TEAM IBOs.  (...)  Oh and why dont you make it a big deal on your website TEAM organization.  I went onto it and your just promoting your so called leadership development organization.  Even if Quixtar loses money because of it they are making the right decision to kick them out...it should have been done earlier.  Good luck to all of you in the future its a big world with plenty of opportunity...but a lot of you are just sounding like (...).    I AM SO THANKFUL FOR BEING IN WORLD WIDE GROUP.   My only main concern as i think the companies concern is every IBO in TEAM getting the facts and information that can make them either quit because they really want to or stay an IBO.  Good luck TEAM on building a leadership organization bases off of bad LEADERSHIP.

Editor's Note:
This comment has been edited in order to adhere to our civil discourse policy.
--Katie Pearsall

SA Scruggs said:
July 7, 2008 10:18 PM | #

Oh yea, the other thing the hairdresser told me that stank to high heaven - "that the REAL money" in her business was in the training.  Um yep, that's a scam.  If it's not about the products, then it's a scam.

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