Stacking vs. Depth-Building
Tuesday, August 14, 2007  by Todd Krause
Category: , ,

Lots of people have been posting comments seeking our explanations regarding “Stacking” vs. “Depth-Building.” Also, there have been questions about Quixtar’s authorization of a customized SA4400 for Team.  Let me try to shed some light on this.

The Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan is a multilevel plan – people make money from selling product personally and from the sales of product by those they sponsor.  We don’t dictate how any IBO builds their business in terms of width or depth.  IBOs are free to choose their own organizational structure – provided it is within acceptable business practices. 

Depth-building has long been part of the business for those who wish to build a large organization, and the IBO Compensation Plan is structured to reward sales volume from such a structure.  On the other hand, “stacking” is unacceptable. Stacking is when an IBO doesn’t know their sponsor or did not agree to be sponsored by the IBO who is registered as their sponsor.  Stacking often is accompanied by misrepresentations that distort the Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan. Stacking violates the IBO Rules of Conduct.

In the beginning, when Team represented to Quixtar that they were teaching acceptable depth-building, we authorized a customized SA4400 so that those participating in that methodology understood that they would be less profitable in the short to medium term.  We thought it important to manage the expectations of prospective IBOs.  It appears now, however, that the actual method taught by Team was beyond acceptable depth-building and amounted to stacking.

It is interesting to note Team’s decision to leave the Quixtar business came two weeks after Jim Payne, Quixtar Managing Director, sent a message to all Quixtar Platinums that the company would be investigating “stacking” allegations and penalizing those businesses found to be engaging in this practice. Check out Jim’s email below:

July 25, 2007

To Qualified Platinums and above:

One of the fundamental principles for achieving success with Quixtar is to build a knowledgeable and successful sales force that features, as its foundation, a personal relationship between each Independent Business Owner (IBO) and his or her sponsor. That relationship is the building block for every line of sponsorship and affects the potential awards and rewards obtained through the Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan.

It would be a serious violation of an IBO's contract and Quixtar Rules to circumvent this principle by manipulating the Plan through the practice of "stacking.” Stacking occurs when an upline IBO places a new IBO under another IBO in their Quixtar line of sponsorship without regard for whether the IBO knows and has a relationship with their frontline sponsor. Accordingly, stacking is deemed to take place when a new IBO doesn’t know their sponsor or doesn't agree with whom their registered sponsor is. In all such cases, stacking is a serious violation of Rule 4.25, the Plan Manipulation Rule (see below*). Moreover, our complaint history confirms that the absence of a relationship often is accompanied by high-risk representations that trigger pyramid and securities law issues.

Quixtar wishes to make sure that all leaders know and understand that “stacking” is not acceptable and to further communicate this to their downlines.

Please understand that not all depth-building is stacking. If prospective IBOs wish to align vertically and they know their sponsor and approve of the arrangement, it is acceptable. In such instances, however, Quixtar wants to make sure IBOs understand that this choice is optional, and that an IBO with only one leg will not be as profitable as an IBO with multiple legs. In fact, the concern over potential profitability is why Quixtar encourages the building of balanced businesses that include the retail sale of product to customers and sponsoring that results in both depth and width in the line of sponsorship.

To further deter and stop the practice of stacking, effective September 1, 2007, Quixtar will initiate the following policy:

POLICY - Effective September 1, 2007 whenever Quixtar becomes aware of (i) a new IBO that either does not know their sponsor or who sponsored someone they do not know or (ii) a new IBO that does not agree with whom their sponsor is, Quixtar will immediately flag that Platinum group and will begin an internal review of the situation which may include but not be limited to calling all new IBOs of the group after they register to ask them to verify their sponsor. As the Rules of Conduct hold qualified Platinums responsible for compliance within their personal groups, if the internal review reveals cases of stacking, Quixtar will take the following steps:

First Occurrence: Quixtar will place a freeze on all sponsoring within that Platinum’s group until all IBOs in that group receive training communication from Quixtar on acceptable sponsoring practices.

Second Occurrence: Quixtar will suspend the Platinum business for a minimum of 30 days, including forfeiture of bonuses.

Third Occurrence: Further action up to, and including, termination of the Platinum’s contract with Quixtar.

** As with all Quixtar enforcement actions, an IBO can appeal company action through the dispute resolution procedures described by the Rules of Conduct.**

Quixtar is extremely serious about prohibiting the practice of stacking.

Your assistance in ensuring that your group fully understands and abides by the rules against stacking is appreciated.

Thanks for your help with this.


Comments

Joe said:
August 14, 2007 2:23 PM | #

Thank you for clearing this up for people. You may want to go over and post it in the Alticor blog. Lots of misinformed people in there.

The Real Quixtar Blog said:
August 14, 2007 2:59 PM | #

In response to a lot of questions about "stacking" and the customized version of the SA4400

Inside Quixtar said:
August 14, 2007 3:25 PM | #

Today you'll see a post by Todd Krause over at Ada-tudes addressing the differences between stacking

kdsj said:
August 14, 2007 5:01 PM | #

The company's definition and their NEW policy that is not currently effective and hasn't been effective.  Rules broken? not in effect.  and as for the definition...the company's definition or an MLM attorney's definition... http://www.mlmlegal.com/faq.html

Stacking is the 2nd to the last question.

you decide

ibofightback said:
August 14, 2007 5:03 PM | #

Thanks for the corp. position - it clarifies things somewhat. In general folk tend to refer to "stacking" as any placement of an IBO downline of someone other than the person who introduced them to the business. By the corp. definition if a prospect and sponsor agree to this then this would be appropriate depth building rather than stacking. I'd just call it "inappropriate stacking" vs "appropriate stacking". I've updated my post on my site to incorporate the corp. position.

Has the corp. given any consideration the option of having both an "enroller" and a "sponsor" as some MLMs have? Appropriate Team depth-building can be very powerful, and tracking such information would be sensible and useful.

JollyPolly said:
August 14, 2007 5:09 PM | #

The above letter can not be constituted as proof of why this current issue is occuring.  For all we know, you could have wrote yourself -it is written in your post - it appears that you did and wrote the date in as July 25, 2007.  You have a class action suit against you and your legal council said "SURE POST THE EVIDENCE ONLINE" If "stacking" was an issue, ALL IBOS would already know what it is and not need you to tell us now.  If illegal stacking was occuring, why are Orrin and Chris and the board members the ONLY ones terminated?  You say you want to help the TEAM members transition to the Quixtar Way, but then bash their leader in the most unprofessional way - on an internet blog...is Quixtar run by a bunch of 14 year old girls?  It appears Quixtar didn't care about "stacking" until they realized that by refusing to change their prices - something that would help ALL IBOs - they were going to lose a lot of business which has produced A LOT of volume and $$ ; and like a 14 year old girl, they had a tantrum ONLINE FOR ALL TO SEE...Why don't you send your so called proof to the courts?  Why are you blogging all of this information?  If your legal council approved of your posts, you may want to terminate them too, and your entire PR staff while you're at it since they clearly aren't doing their job.  Why don't you man up and deal with private matters behind closed doors.  You can probably be sued for slander or breech of privacy as you have decided to release information about an IBOs INDEPENDANTLY OWNED BUSINESS in the most public form possible, and again blogging like a 14 year old.  Why don't you tell all IBOs about the phone calls you are making threatening to delay the platinum seminar because you don't want anyone from TEAM to be there?  People at the platinum level are having the benefits of FREE enterprise and the reward they worked very hard for stripped because you terminated the business of their upline.  By the way, good luck with the AMWAY name.  Did you come across a bag of bad ideas and just keep pulling?

JollyPolly said:
August 14, 2007 5:11 PM | #

Comments policy: Please note that comments are moderated . All comments are welcome as long as they are on topic and respectful. We reserve the right to remove without warning any and all offensive, unlawful, defamatory, or libelous comments, as well as any personal attacks or offensive language.  

You can't even follow your own blog rules why would we believe you were following those that keep you from running a pyramid

G_W said:
August 14, 2007 5:48 PM | #

This is great! So refreshing to see a timely response to a burning issue like this. Thanks for getting this info out there!

"Interesting to note" the timing of this TEAM blow-up, indeed!

Jake L said:
August 14, 2007 5:54 PM | #

I'm confused, you said "It is interesting to note Team’s decision to leave the Quixtar business came two weeks after Jim Payne, Quixtar Managing Director...". The Alticor Blog and Quixtar News release said "terminated". I understood that some of the members of TEAM resigned their positions on the board. Are you intentionally trying to confuse the two events?  

As for me, I have seen enough. I have defended Quixtar and Amway for quite some time, but I don't know how we can get past this now. I'm not part of TEAM's LOS, but I believe that Alticor has damaged us all. I shared this opportunity with a very nice couple last night and they said that if it had anything to do with "Amway" they were not interested, and now you are going to make us lead with it? I won't be included in that group, I'll be finding a different opportunity. How do we know that if we build even larger organizations over the next several years that you won't change the deal again. I thought that the IBOAI board was supposed to help us in that but it's obvious that Alticor will be doing what ever they want regardless. It's like I've been sucker punched.

Editor's Notes:  It's a chicken/egg question. They were terminated, but clearly they planned to leave the business when the company took this action, given the fact they announced their intentions to form a new company and were named as plaintiffs in a lawsuit against the company.  No formal communication tendering resignation was received prior to their termination, but it was their choice that led to this company action.  

As for disclosing to a prospect that he or she is joining the Quixtar business and that Amway is a sister company, most IBOs eventually discover this so denying it only leads to distrust of the sponsoring IBO. -- Robin Luymes

Trevor said:
August 14, 2007 6:04 PM | #

This clears up Amway's prespective somewhat, my question is: Is the policy on stacking new as of Sept 1 or has it always been in place?

And can you post rule 4.25 so we can see the verbage in context?

I don't know where my Business Compendium is and I haven't been able to find a link to it on the Quixtar site.

Thanks.

 

Editor's Note:  Rules of Conduct found at Quixtar.com in the Business Opportunity section found on the front page.  Not a new rule.

 4.25. IBO Plan Manipulation: No IBO shall manipulate the IBO Plan or sales volume, in any way which results in the payment of bonuses or other awards and recognition that have not been earned in accordance with the terms of the IBO Plan and/or the Business Reference Guide.

--  RL

Ben said:
August 14, 2007 6:08 PM | #

JollyPolly, I can only conlude that the corporation is doing the RIGHT thing. They are going to lose a lot volume and profits by terminating businesses. THAT shows integrity!

ken shinn said:
August 14, 2007 6:20 PM | #

I have not stacked but I have had three people at a meeting and placed one under another who did not know each other but they met at my meeting.  I am working with both and they are and were alright with the one who I contacted first getting in first..depth builds security- and I tell them it is smarter to build depth but we can put them both under me-Instead since I want to help them both I explained why they would be better served if they were sponsored the way I suggested- I gave an sa 4400 and did everything legal-width is that one reason why I went 1500 three times--before going 4000 and did you make more off of my groups then or if I would have secured them in depth--you do not know if you have not been on the front lines building this business having to dodge the word Amway which conjers up somone with high britches, white socks,a bad tie and bad breath pedaling shoe spray and soap!

 

Editor's Note: Depth building done appropriately -- with all parties in agreement -- is permitted.  Nobody's asking you to promote the Amway business at this time. You are currently in the Quixtar business and will be until we make significant changes to all aspects of the business, which we anticipate will be 18-24 months. -- RL

Jeff LeGros said:
August 14, 2007 6:22 PM | #

I'm glad to see the action taken for stacking. That is not the way I've been taught.

Steve said:
August 14, 2007 6:51 PM | #

What are the significant changes to all aspects of the business that you are referring to?  

Trevor said:
August 14, 2007 7:16 PM | #

Thanks for the quick response.

Jake L said:
August 14, 2007 7:37 PM | #

Thanks Robin for twisting my words. I didn't say anything about not "disclosing" or "denying" Quixtar/Amway, it just feels to me that there are better ways of approaching it for us out in the field. But thanks for questioning my integrity.

 Editor's Note: My apologies if I misunderstood. The approach that has been taught by Team includes referring to Quixtar as one of many vendors. The reasons for doing so are those you expressed in your comments.  RL

HSW said:
August 14, 2007 8:03 PM | #

Addressed to RL (editor's note) in regards to his comments made to Jeff LeGros:

This is not about promoting the Amway business. It is about not telling the whole story.  If I know about the name change back to Amway than I mislead a prospect today by signing him up in Quixtar. He will have no choice in the future after he invested 2 years of sweat and tears building his business.

It's like TEAM not mentioning QUIXTAR. Arn't you doing the same thing here?

Check out www.businesswire.com Type “Quixtar” in the search box and hit enter. Quixtar already officially changed their name back to “Amway” back in July as far as the books go.

 

Editor's Note: Thanks HSW. This is why the new Quixtar Business Opportunity Brochure (QBOB) that all new prospects will be required to receive beginning in September includes a disclosure that they are joining Quixtar today but that, after unprecedented changes to our business, a rebranding will occur to align ur North America business with the global Amway business.  RL

Queen Mary said:
August 14, 2007 8:04 PM | #

I'm an IBO (well, was an active IBO) in the True North Organization...up here in Canada, eh! Our leaders sold us out to the Team way of doing business last October. That ****ed me off then, and it still does. It wasn't the opportunity I had signed up for, and although I was only a 4000 Pin, I didn't think this stacking and X/S drinking was what my dreams and Quixtar was all about. But if I didn't buy into it....tough luck...do something else with your life! Personally I'm glad to see the Team hit the bricks, I just hope that a lot of hard working IBO's don't hit the bricks with them. Did I say... LEADERS???

Marcos said:
August 14, 2007 8:42 PM | #

A house can not be divided within itself and think it will continue to stand. I am a recent sponsered IBO by someone that I do know!  This has been very discouraging news and believe me, it can't be good for morale eighther. Do I go or do I stay?  It's a pitty that such a good concept as multi level networking organizations always end up crumbleling from the top because of rival philosophies.  I could be wrong but this thing about inappropriate stacking and exceptable depth building is confusing to me as a new IBO and sounds like a contridiction of terms. All I know is that the little guy always gets hurt and I am questionably thinking wether it's a good idea to invest time and effort into a business plan that could flounder later and render my time and effort useless.

ChrisDeLong said:
August 14, 2007 9:31 PM | #

Before making statements and confusing facts, read the lawsuit. There are errs on both sides, but Alticor is sadly the true culprit.

The litigation filed holds so much against Alticor, it is entirely disingenuous to let there action go. What this really seems like is a power asssertion by the corporation. http://www.shauncarter.com/images/Complaint.pdf

Jonathan James Collier said:
August 14, 2007 9:37 PM | #

Great job Quixtar! I'm proud of the business today and very excited about the business in the future. Keep up the great work and thanks for being more transparent then ever! Love the opportunityzone!

Martha said:
August 14, 2007 10:19 PM | #

I was building the business when it was Amway and people were building it very big then.  We were glad when they changed the name, but we were never ashamed of the business.  There was always integrity under Amway and the original founders.  Amway conjures up people working hard to build a business and benefit their families, period.

Josh P. said:
August 14, 2007 10:27 PM | #

I'm an IBO that's been with the opportunity for many years.  I've seen trends in sponsoring and depth-building techniques come and go, but none of them seemed 'wrong' until I heard about the 'Team Depth Building' plan.   IF it is done in accordance with business rules (by making sure that the sponsoring parties truly know each other, or at the very least are properly introduced and the nature of the business relationship is clearly spelled out) AND care is taken to focus on width as well, it could be effective.

Sadly, the problem was, often the training materials themselves would encourage blind stacking.  That, in particular, was what bothered be about the entire method.

I'm very proud to say that my upline Diamond and Emerald both refused to implement blind stacking.  Alticor's decision to make it clear that blind stacking was an unsound business practice also makes me proud.  An organization that is willing to stand up and say "this is wrong", and take action against people who violate the spirit of the business even if it means a hit to the bottom line, is worthy of respect and my further business.

Thank you for renewing my belief in the Quixtar business model.

Doc said:
August 14, 2007 11:13 PM | #

Being part of the Legacy Business Group having recently become affiliated with TEAM, at no time was TEAM nor Legacy promoting "stacking."  In fact, in their registration packet, it says, and I quote:  

Pre Registration instructions:

1. Please provide all prospects with the SA-4400 prior to registration. The SA-4400 is also known as the Independent Business Ownership Plan.

2. It is imperative that the potential IBO receive the SA-4400 prior to registration. This can be accomplished by either distributing the Part 2 pack (which has the form pre-packaged) or by personally handing the form to the prospect.

3. The new IBO must have actual knowledge of their immediate sponsor. Furthermore, the new IBO needs to be aware of the distinction between their upline mentor and their sponsor. This clarification is very important in the registration process.

See pre-registration rule #3?  Stacking?  It doesn't appear to me that way, and it has always been this way as long as Legacy has been affiliated with TEAM (about a year).  Because the prospect was provided with an SA-4400, they knew they were signing up with Quixtar and seeing the IBO compensation plan because it says right on top "Quixtar Affiliated Independent Business Owner (IBO) Registration."  Furthermore, in any and all Open Opportunity meetings, it has been explained that if you only have one group that is deep, you will NOT be profitable and that you need more groups to become profitable (at least 3 to the 7500 pv level were promoted).  The most you would get with one group and no outside volume is 25% back on your own consumption.  No more, no less.  If at any time you wanted to become profitable, build another couple of groups.  Not sure what all the illegal depth building accusations are all about.

This is quoted from TEAM's SA-4400 that was content reviewed by Quixtar (CR #17851):

Team’s Approach: Participation in Team’s approach to building a business powered by Quixtar is strictly voluntary. Team utilizes long-term vision, delayed gratification (short-term income is smaller when focusing on depth more than width), and utilize the power of compounding (depth is intended to create, but is not guaranteed to produce, duplication and longterm results). Team focuses in part on building depth in the sponsoring process. The use of this methodology, while somewhat different from how other IBOs may promote building a business, does not alter how PV/BV are calculated or how bonuses are paid by Quixtar through the IBO Plan.

Just as an aside, I can't actually believe anyone at corporate is actually considering going back to the Amway name, even if it is down the road.  We signed up under Amway and found the name was a hard pill to swallow for many, many people (wasn't for us, because we'd never even heard of Amway--one of the few apparently).  We were glad to see the change to Quixtar and we hope the powers that be see the good and the wisdom of changing names.

I know my opinion doesn't matter, right now things are heated, mud is flying, and lawyers are involved.  I hope cooler heads and thoughtful minds prevail.  This appears to be a Lose-Lose situation at this point.  Disappointing really, and unfortunate.

ken shinn said:
August 14, 2007 11:24 PM | #

I have met emeralds and Platinums in my month of seeing the plan and getting in again and just like the tools agreement --Team is doing it right and we are making sure people know up front what we are doing.

Stacking is depth building and Quixtar's pricing has to get better.  

Wanda said:
August 14, 2007 11:31 PM | #

I'm glad to hear the Amway name come back. My customers will rejoyce. I ordered a gal of L.O.C. for a customer and the delivery fee was $6.85, I sure wish the delivery fees were less.

Tex said:
August 14, 2007 11:31 PM | #

I understand what you are saying when strangers end up sponsoring each other, and the opportunity can be distorted. However, there is also a problem when the IBO's in depth know each other, as they end up trusting each other too much, based on their pre-existing friendship. I think it is far more important to know the facts regarding where the vast majority of the profit comes from (the tools) than whether the sponsored person is a stranger or a friend.  

ibofightback said:
August 14, 2007 11:47 PM | #

Marcos - stay.

The biz has been through worse before, and still here and bigger than ever.

Ocean dog said:
August 15, 2007 12:02 AM | #

I truly cannot believe that I am reading such nonsense.  Can we seriously think that if you add someone in depth under another ibo, that first ibo would throw up his hands and say- no please don't put anyone under me!  I don't want to be in business with that person?!  I can't imagine anyone would ever care if someone was added in depth.  I've heard so many sad stories of IBO's who loved the business concept but never had the opportunity to achieve any levels of sucess because they never were able to sponsor a single person.  After awhile that kills a persons belief and then they leave the business and say it stinks.  Depth building allows someone to grow and develop and experience success.  I've seen time and time again when, through a depth buidling approach, people achieve more than they ever could alone.  Depth building can't be understoon on paper. It can only be understoon when you see the light in that 1,000 pin's eyes.....It's the ah ha!  This will work light.  It gives people their hope back!  And it seems to me that the organization in question has had a lot of success using this approach.  It's very interesting that now- all of a sudden- this is a problem.  Doesn't make sense to me.

Editor's Note: In this and other comments, people seem to have not understood Todd's post. As he and Jim's letter indicates, depth building is permissable, provided all parties are aware of where they are being placed in that organization and are introduced to their sponsor. If that is the practice of IBOs building in depth, there should be no issues!  It's when a new IBO is not told this is happening that issues arise (and, yes, it's not usually the person who has received a new downline with no effort who would complain).  RL

Brad Obert (current IBO) said:
August 15, 2007 12:10 AM | #

Queen Mary?......did your upline or any other IBO for that matter, force you to switch to "Team"?  I believe you had and still have the right to build the business with no system at all if you wish.  Go build it.

I've been registered with Amway since '96, through to Quixtar even today.  I was blown away by the comments made by the corporation about Orrin Woodward on the blog.  Reminds me of some other folks on the web, spewing falsehoods about the corporation.  I think Quixtar just planted a big old seed called "doubt" in all who read that.  Someone will be wrong.  If it's Team, then Quixtar looks bad for letting it go for 7 years, and letting Team leadership be all over the IBOAI board, Team leaders will have to move on.  It it's Quixtar, then they still look bad because web text never goes away.  Folks will be reading these comments and the comments by the corporation for years after any legal battle has been decided.  Doesn't seem well thought out to me.

Brad Obert said:
August 15, 2007 12:14 AM | #

Forgot 1 question.  In my opinion, Team is one of the few groups out there trying to be transparent about the "system" money.   Seems odd that this particular group is the example.  Also seems to be more and more folks in the know, stating comments about Quixtar/Amway protecting the tool systems of a very few giant IBO's.  Interesting that this very blog states clearly, "the spirit of transparency" right in the acknowledgement I have to see when i wish to post here.  Laughable.

Steve McElmurry, WI said:
August 15, 2007 12:25 AM | #

As suggested above, I have read the entire lawsuit. I'm not a lawyer, but told my wife I wish I was the Quixtar lawyer because it would be fun to take Team's position apart.

Failure to make a retail sale is failure on the part of the salesman, not the company that priced the product.

All of Team's complaints should appropriately be placed at their own feet--I know of no person who has been approached by a representative of Quixtar or Amway or Alticor about becoming an IBO or selling their products. That approach is always made by an IBO, by definition an independent contractor.

Were they truly upset about these seeming problems, the TEAM leadership would have stopped years and years ago, sponsoring other people. There is no recruitment quota emposed by Quixtar. Team continued to recruit, and by their own statements, mislead, new IBOs of their own choice, and for their own gain.

The way Quixtar or the founding families price product is really their decision--it's their product line, and all of us have simply signed up for the opportunity to move it in market. It's as silly as me complaining about the price of construction material to my suppliers. Either I sell it, or find new suppliers, or go out of business.

Marcus, above, is worried about his time and effort being wasted if he fails in business. I try to empathize, but COME ON! I have over $12000 in tools in construction, plus advertising, plus wages, plus govt compliance, plus, plus, plus. Do the math in the Quixtar plan. What they offer to pay for developing TEN customers is absolutely crazy it's sooo good.  Let alone the opp to assist another person in developing a business, and they pay a leadership bonus for helping????? Stop looking at this Quixtar deal like "one of those things" and look at it like an honest-to-goodness real business, compared to some other regular business.

Ocean dog said:
August 15, 2007 12:31 AM | #

Quenn Mary, I have a question for you.  Since you've joined the team, has your business gotten bigger?

Ocean dog said:
August 15, 2007 12:57 AM | #

Queen Mary, I have a question for you.  Since joining the Team, has your business grown?

KNP said:
August 15, 2007 1:05 AM | #

Mr. Krause, you said, "It is interesting to note Team’s decision to leave the Quixtar business came two weeks after Jim Payne, Quixtar Managing Director, sent a message to all Quixtar Platinums that the company would be investigating “stacking” allegations and penalizing those businesses found to be engaging in this practice.".  As a Team IBO for 5 years, depth building as defined by you IS what I was taught from the very beginning.  Making sure individuals have a relationship and agree to work together is exactly what we did.

It's crystal clear that the reason Team is leaving Quixtar is due to all the items listed in the lawsuit that Quixtar failed to address... NOT because of an Email sent by Jim Payne about stacking.  

You and the Alticor PR department are misleading by broadly implying Team taught stacking.  Your statement, "It appears now, however, that the actual method taught by Team was beyond acceptable depth-building and amounted to stacking.".  I was never taught to stack.  The Team's teaching of depth building is correct and valid.  It's your unwarranted comments that are 'beyond acceptable'.

Eric S said:
August 15, 2007 1:34 AM | #

Jolly,

Quixtar didn't take this public, the plaintiffs who filed the lawsuit in violation of their contract took it publc. I for one am glad Quixtar is responding instead of laying down.

Chris,

Of course the lawsuit accuses Quixtar of being everything but a fatherless child.That's what people do when they are trying to justify their own actions Do you expect them to present a balanced view.

Doc,

The heads of Legacy Wilson and Haugen filed litigation against Quixtar in violation of their contract.Do you propose that Quixtar ignore the fact that these two are claming the business is illegal and continue to keep them in good standing?

To anyone else who suggests that Quixtar post info on the Alticor blog, please don't. That is an embarassment to anyone who attempts to have civil discourse. Someone at corp need to stand up and admit it.

Ron N. said:
August 15, 2007 3:21 AM | #

I'm new to TEAM (Two months) but I was previously in Amway twice and Quixtar once in the past 30 Years.I believe in the concept and want to build my business.

When I was in Amway both times I was also in the Navy and moved from coast to coast. At that time You could not build the Business long distance because of shiping costs. Back then the products were priced

where as an IBO the prices were close to comparable But it was Hard to Retail, You had to sell at cost to get anybody to even think about it.

When in Quixtar we still built the Business in the spider way and because it was so hard to build stable depth and the prices were even worse, Our Emerald down all calapsed.

When I saw TEAM and was TOLD THIS WAS STILL Quixtar but a better way of depth building I was ecstatic, I could see how much more stable the depth was building it this way, But was still unhappy with the prices.

Now here I go again! I want the Business but you take away what I see good, and still have the high prices. "GIVE ME SOMETHING"

For a company that runs around claiming that this way of retailing is better because we dont have the warehousing, Distrbution, and advertising costs but yet the prices are out of reach by the IBO's unless you are getting a 15% to 25% Bonus, let alone trying to retail anything.  "GIVE ME SOMETHING PLEASE"

Elliott said:
August 15, 2007 3:52 AM | #

I am on a Quixtar LOS that recently joined TEAM. My previous team also followed the depth building principles of the TEAM, so I'd have to say that I don't know how to build the business "properly". The transition has slowed me down as I studied furiously to learn the TEAM method of sponsoring and systematic volume techniques (D.O.T.1 S.T.E.P with the XS lines). Now I am doubly confused, and would like some guidance on how to go far enough upline to a group who is following the SA440 correctly. Any suggestions?

Paul Bodine said:
August 15, 2007 4:01 AM | #

It's very encouraging to hear such clear thinking on the subject of this controversy.  It confirms my belief that only the best people are drawn to and stay with this great business.  

As an AmQuix Distributor/IBO since 1992 I've always been proud of "The Corporation" as I've tradionally referred to the folks in ADA, but something seems to have gotten seriously off track.  Is the place being run by attorney's now because that seems like the only ones who are going to come out ahead at least in the short term.

Here are some points that others may want to think about and comment on:

1)  If we have truly moved from the industrial age to the information age, then the tide (forgive the pun) is with the teachers and purveyors of the information on how to build communities of "Prosumers" consumers/sales/business people and not the manufactures; i.e. Wal-mart dictates terms to Proctor and Gamble, not the other way around.  Is that what is making you nervous Alticor?  If so I would think you should be thrilled to have groups like the Team working hard to make your products #1 in the world, like they were in the process of doing with the XS Drinks and Nutrilite Food bars, and like they were prepared to do with other products that could compete on their own in the marketplace where we IBO's that don't collect a paycheck from The Corporation have to (sorry, choose to) make a living with this "opportunity".

2)  How is it fair that an IBO who has invested incomparably more in thier teams growth and success be barred from communicating with thier group over such an important decision while The Corporation is free to collect their people into meetings and make phone calls pushing their agenda and point of view?

3)  Is The Corporation being "transparent" about its intention to severely, restrict the use of IBO produced and distributed Business Support Materials and open meeting and seminars to the point that there will be no more "system" as those of us whose  use of "tools" has been influenced by Dexter Yager have come to know it?

Fig said:
August 15, 2007 4:24 AM | #

Oh please, if the corporation was really concerned about being above board, they would have 1. posted the "stacking" concerns on the website so that any IBO could have access to the facts. Instead of accusing the TEAM as teaching it inccorrectly.  A Quixtar representative is ALWAYS in attendance at any major function. 2. Announced the upcoming name change on their "what's new" facts on the website.....instead of a third party reporting this information (businesswire.com) 3. Made clear why the other Diamonds were terminated.  There are some of them named in the suit that have part of the corporation for over 30 years!!  Have the violations been going on that long and now the concern to fly straight has been the utmost importance?  All I can see in the comments are about Orrin Woodward, what about the others.  They all contributed to the 1.6 billion in sales the company is responsible for.  I wonder if the partner stores will be happy to hear that you just cut your sales staff by more than in half.  Do they know that you just pulled their strings too?

Fig said:
August 15, 2007 5:13 AM | #

One more thing.........It's amazing that the TEAM has been the fastest growing in the corporation for the last 7 or 8 years and this is how the highest performing people are being treated.  I don't thnk it was coincidence that these high-ranked IBO's were terminated just prior to the yearly bonus distribution.  Greed has an ugly stench!!

J.E.M. said:
August 15, 2007 9:08 AM | #

Todd, Personally knowing TEAM IBO's, stacking is not a common practice among the TEAM.  Don't get me wrong, their are times, especially when new IBO's are involved, that it can happen.  That said, the allegations and the most embarrassing statement I have ever seen this company release has caused me great embarrassment and I know building my business just got  a lot tougher.

     Let's talk about the real problems:  IBOAI board being powerless, Quixtar being changed back to AMWAY (An even greater mistake).  Finally, Your lack of LISTENING to the IBO"S that are entering the living rooms of AMERICA!!!  Good luck proving Stacking against the TEAM..

Nathan said:
August 15, 2007 9:14 AM | #

THANK YOU, Quixtar.  You are removing tons of roadblocks for our business.  We could not be MORE excited for taking out people for doing illegal things and giving us a bad reputation.  With new bonuses, products, marketing... this business is going to be off the hook!  Thanks again - and as always in this business - ignore the ignorant nay-sayers.

New to both organizations! said:
August 15, 2007 10:31 AM | #

I am new to Team and Quixtar as of Aug. 1st. So I have not had time to establish any “loyalties” to either. I can say that I was told that I was joining Quixtar, which I read Quixtar saying that Team was not telling people that and I do know the person that sponsored me.  I was even made aware that Quixtar was owned by Alticor who also owns Amway, which almost made me back out of the deal. Now with all this happening I think I am going to go ahead and back out. Alticor/Quixtar has done nothing in my opinion but bash Team, meanwhile Team is saying only they want Quixtar to “let their people go” and that part of the problem is the high prices, which is TRUE!! That is the one thing I didn’t realize before joining. It is ridiculous on most items. I tried selling the B2B items to a couple of companies last week and the price they are paying now is WAY lower than the IBO cost!! You can’t retail this stuff!! Are you kidding?? Not to mention the 1st thing people say is “Is it Amway?” NOBODY wants Amway! They don’t even know why, they just know they don’t want it!! And it is hard to change someones mind after years of hearing bad things about Amway and now Quixtar is changing the name back to Amway. COUNT ME OUT!! You can’t sell this expensive merchandise as it is, stamp the Amway name on it and people won’t even discuss it with you!

And why would Quixtar/Alticor want to hold a bunch of people to a contract that they are so terribly unhappy with? I have seen THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of Team people…you really want that many people mad at your company? I agree with the lady that said you found a bad idea bag and keep pulling! I personally don’t want to be associated with a company that talks all this trash on the internet and with all their wealth tries to stop people like me, who are just getting by, from exploring other better opportunities.

Don said:
August 15, 2007 10:45 AM | #

To all who seem to be siding with the corporation, it looks like you want to lump this whole thing in as a few bad eggs, ego maniacs, mony hungry folks missleading the masses...  if you truly knew what was going on, you would have a different opinion.  Unfortunately, this whole thing happened, and short term it is going to be a very bumpy road as emotions are high.  It is just sad that it had to come to this.  I agree that at first glance the Teams lawsuit looks childish and irrelevent, however, there is much more to it than the words on that complaint.  The ENTIRE IBOIA board was in agreement to what was done, most of them put their names on the line and gave up their business to make a point... The IBOIA board has been slowly shut down to nothing but a 'feel good' figure head for the IBO's  I still think A/Q/A is a great opportunity, but it is the information age, and changes are needed if this business is going to succeeed in this new economy.  The Team has brought the system tool business out of the darkness into the open and made the profits available to everyone, not the people at the top...  There needs to be alignment on the Content/Commerce distributioin side as well...  Again, I wish this would not have happened, but knowing the truth about many things, it was going to happen eventually... this is not small... it will have HUGE ramifications for years to come...

 

Editor's Note: The entire IBOAI did not support the actions taken by the 15 IBOs who were terminated, which includes a lawsuit that threatens the entire Quixtar business and the announcement they are forming a competitive company.  The joint statement from the IBOAI board of directors, the North American Founders Council, and Quixtar indicate a unified front against these leaders and support for the actions taken by Quixtar. -- RL

KNP said:
August 15, 2007 11:40 AM | #

I for one believe Orrin & Chris have done what you would expect from high caliber leaders.  They worked with Q for years trying to make changes in several areas they felt were not in line with their vision and direction.  After the diplomatic channels failed (behind closed door politics and negotiation), what else could they do?.... they had to go to the next level.

So they filed the lawsuit, placed their specific complaints in the legal document, and have been quiet ever since.

The fire is being fueled by everyone else (including Alticor/Quixtar) adding their two cents with no factual info, simply opinions.

Which would you teach your kids - exhaust diplomatic channels then go to court if you have to (Woodward/Brady approach), or go out and trash talk on the Internet and through email (Quixtar's approach)?

Let's be adults... when you have two parties that don't want to do business together anymore, both should move on in their own direction and be free to do business as they see fit.

Quixtar - how about showing the world that you're capable of taking the high road!

Charles W. said:
August 15, 2007 11:47 AM | #

INHERITANCE / SUCCESSION to CHALLENGE!!

We have been a part of the business for some 10+ years and in all that time we were confident of this one thing, "The Corporation would always take the high road, whether accusing or being accused".

Not speaking to the legality of the circumstance but to the spirit of the conflict.

I would have never, in a MILLION years, believed a sanctioned spokesperson for the corporation would, and more disturbingly could post such a tabloid type blog entry.

Not withstanding fault or legal correctness, there arises the issue of excellence in business practices.  

One can not state that the end justifies the means or embrace the "They started it" principle as an reason or excuse for ones actions.

Regardless of the outcome, the corporation has been relegated to the level of just another company protecting their turf by the statements of those in authority.

It feels as though we are part of the latest political brouhaha.

The overwhelming spin-doctoring on behalf of the corporation is apparent, while it appears that TEAM has instructed its contingency not say anything disparaging about the corporation.

You have to ask yourself the question:

1. How many people in leadership positions in the corporation have actually built the business to at least the 4000 PV level?

2.  Do they know what it takes or means to build the business firsthand or is it only by proxy?

(As difficult and idealistic as it may sound, the leaders should be required to build the business to at least the 2500 PV level.  Then and only then can we be sure they know what it takes to be an IBO)

We see that only one of the founders is left.  He knows what it takes to build a business such as ours.

I can not say whether he is for or against the present actions, but as a father looking over a child, I have to believe that he would not have retaliated with the spirit displayed for all the world to see.

As a business transitions from one generation to another change is inevitable but the form, type and spirit of that change is not always desirable.

I have learned through the business that:

"When people of integrity speak that expect to be believed, and when they are not they let time prove them right!!!!"

Robert said:
August 15, 2007 12:06 PM | #

The Amway Sales and Marketing Plan ....when worked properly..can/does/will ...give anyone that chooses to work their butts off for 2/3 years a chance to create an incredable income.

Why is it that if people dont make it work for them they then feel they have to attack their sponsor..upline plat..upline emerald...diamond..and the name Amway in order to justify their failure. Just GO,join another network/mlm/ and take your moaning and bad mouthing to them when you fail there too.

The leaders??? that have just been kicked out of Quixtar brought it on themselves..so they need to clear off and take their great ideas into some other business and dont try and destroy the dreams and hopes of thousands of other I.B.Os.

robert said:
August 15, 2007 12:10 PM | #

WE just want to be able to work very hard to create a better lifestyle for our familys.through building the AMWAY business...   those poeple that have failed to do that should just go away ..try something else ..and let us get on with working towards our dreams and goals

Brad Obert said:
August 15, 2007 12:14 PM | #

Steve M.  Perhaps you could build an organization large enough to make 6 figures.  Then over a decade or two have the corporation slowly price their products higher and higher until noone can retail a thing.  Which date do you pick to decide to leave?  You say they can quit.  Well, which date do you pick to quit?   Especially when you have active ongoing communication and problem resolution by being a member of a so-called board designed to represent all IBO's.  

Hypothetically, let's say you build 10000 people.  After which they double the product prices.  Now what?  You talk as though there is no timeline.  

It is also obvious many here have NOT read the Team plaintiff lawsuit.  You can't read the first 3 pages and make a judgement call.  Funny how people think.

My last question?  When you go Crown, and Quixtar decides to terminate you, what are you going to do about it?   I'm sure walk away quietly. hehe

Brad

Wendy D. said:
August 15, 2007 12:16 PM | #

Interesting that this directive now is critical of something that was known to Quixtar. You sound as if you just discovered this "stacking" method of building. Has this ever been brought up as an issue before?

The timing of the directive is very interesting. I can see a bunch of harrasment coming for TEAM IBO's who build with TEAM approach. NO thank you. Sounds like you were trying to push us out. We already get harrassed about our paperwork and now you are building in a reason to harrass all of us whenever you want.  

LisBette said:
August 15, 2007 12:44 PM | #

Hey Fig, you said it well.  And J.E.M. good point.

I am a long-time member of TEAM, and I have been present for practically every TEAM teaching session directed at Platinums and above. Woodward and Brady have ALWAYS told us to register new IBOs in compliance with Quixtar rules. After Quixtar agreed to allow Team depth building, it was on condition that before we register a new IBO, he or she must meet their potential sponsor and both parties agree to the relationship.  This is confirmed by the BSMAA that is signed by both parties and sent in to Quixtar.

I am sure some IBOs have taken shortcuts in this--looking back, I think I have done so once or twice. Does that mean our leaders should be terminated? That would be like saying my driver's training instructor should lose his driver's license because I was caught speeding.

Second, and my bigger concern, is the changing of the rules themselves. Quixtar has the right to make the rules whatever they want. But what is alarming is when the rules are changed without the consent of the IBOAI, and when they are changed so drastically.

For just one example, when I first started in the business, there was no non-compete clause in the Business Compendium.  Now there is. Shame on me for not reading the updated version every year at renewal. But even if I did read it, do I walk away from the business I built for five or ten years because some contract language has changed?

The problem here is that the rules are arbitrary. Apparently no consideration is given to the terms an IBO originally agreed to. So although I think I'm building a secure business because the corporation has been around for almost fifty years, in fact there is no security at all.

Ken Eide said:
August 15, 2007 1:06 PM | #

I have built the business under Amway Corp to the Pearl level and had a large Profit Sharing organization in the eighties. My LOS (Line of Sponsorship) was the only way I learned how to build the business and they alone provided the support to do so. I am building the business again under Quixtar. I joined Quixtar for the following reasons: 1) no product handling now; 2) no bonus payment responsibilities; and 3) new business model and reputation. I believe the Amway reputation has received a bad rap, but the fact of the matter is -- the bad reputation exists. Again, in building the Quixtar business, my LOS has been the key to understanding and building the business. Amway / Quixtar has always left the training and mentoring of the new IBO up to the LOS. Amway / Quixtar have never taken responsibility for IBO business growth.

Since Amway / Quixtar opened their business doors, three trends have changed the business climate -- drastically changing the business environment: 1) Technology in the form of computers and the Internet; 2) Distribution methodology; and 3) Franchising model. Unless businesses are quick enough to recognize change and adjust to it, they will be left behind.

I believe The Team has done a great job realizing the importance of change as well as recognizing it takes leadership qualities to be a successful IBO. The product lines exist here with great products. But unless an IBO gets the right information to incorporate the right thinking so as to be able to leverage the changing business climate, that IBO will become frustrated and quit. Many of you reading this, and maybe all of you, can identify with this.

Amway / Quixtar (Alticor) business goal is to make a profit. That's why businesses exist. They are not in business to take care of IBOs. IBOs are simply their marketing arm to sell products. The corporation can only make a profit when products are sold and consumed. The corporation really doesn't care if IBO's consume them or products get retailed, as long as the product is sold and consumed. To the corporation, IBOs are consumers, because they buy and consume the product. "In fact, a 2006 report prepared by Quixtar states that only 3.4% of its total volume comes from those who do not participate in Quixtar's compensation plan." (quote taken from Plaintiff Complaint; p13) So I guess we IBOs, are the consumers, maybe not the business owners we perceive ourselves to be!!

In business, there is always more at stake than what meets the eye. I can understand why Amway / Quixtar would want to stifle the way The Team is building depth, because it reduces the product profitability to the corporation by as much as 46% on a new Silver organization. The total Bonus compensation paid on a Silver organization is the same whether developed under the "6-4-2" plan or the "Team depth" plan. However, the actual product profit is less in the "Team depth" plan because more IBOs within the organization are able to buy at a larger discount level because of the Bonus compensation plan. So the corporation would see that lower profitability as a loss to them (as much as 46% difference). This becomes sizeable when more and more IBOs are building and growing their businesses successfully. The corporation then, sees this as detrimental to their business profitability model. The corporation, after allowing The Team's business model to exist for over 7 years, now would really like to get that profitability back, since the buy-in from other quality leaders who have been past Presidents of the IBOAI; and which have swelled the number of IBOs growing successful business utilizing this business model. Since pricing is such and issue (only 3.4% of sales volume outside of IBOs), being able to access a better discount on personal purchases have been a very positive element to those building their businesses, especially new IBOs. Since The Team has been the leading business growth leader for 7 years in a row -- this all speaks volumes when you start connecting the dots.

From a business perspective, I understand Amway / Quixtar limited role in training and directing IBOs. There is a fine line as to what constitutes Independent Contractor status versus Employee status. Amway / Quixtar has been able to wield the tremendous marketing arm of IBOs without having to pay salaries, travel expenses, office expenses, insurance expenses, Social Security Tax and Withholding Tax. All the corporation has to do is pay bonueses based on product sales volume. The corporation has locked the IBO into an agreement that includes a non-compete clause. And the IBO pays an IBO renewal fee every year to help offset the corporation's tracking expense. When you think about it, if there is at least 500,000 IBOs, that roughly translates into an income of $25,000,000. That pays for a lot of office help.

My understanding, which is definitely limited, of this situation regarding the litigation, is that there is no demand for money involved. It is basically asking for either lower pricing so that IBOs can be competitive or a time period that allows an IBO to make a choice of staying with Amway / Quixtar or leaving without fear of the non-compete clause being exercised against them by the corporation. Since the IBO is basically a consumer to Amway / Quixtar, how could the latter be an issue?? Because the average monthly purchase across the board for an IBO is under $50, I would think it would behoove the corporation to "cleanse" it's ranks of IBOs not happy with their situation and keep a low public relations profile; and build the new "Transformation" they are excited about. By not doing this, the corporation is harming all IBO businesses, by trying to put a spin on what's happening and not happening. Time will be the true judge!!

otherwiseinformed said:
August 15, 2007 1:19 PM | #

Ok Team members...wake up.  There is stacking and has been.  As members of my part of Team, before sponsoring anyone new we had to "call our upline platinum" to find out where to put the person/couple.  They were strategically placed.  If you were fairly new, under a year in the business, and you "accidentally" sponsored someone in width, the upline platinum would call the corporation to have that person moving to a place down deep in a tap root, sometimes 15-30 people away from you!  That is what was against the rules!  Not saying corporation is right here because there are valid pricing concerns, but to say that Team was an innocent bystander here is a stretch!  Take it from someone who dared to get a refund on seminar tickets and was told "no".

darryll said:
August 15, 2007 1:25 PM | #

isnt this what some of the other groups are doing like marker man or is that part of the team

Cory said:
August 15, 2007 1:37 PM | #

In response to "New to both organizations":

I can tell you that I've been a TEAM IBO since May 2007 and everything that Quixtar has implied was true to my experience.

- I was not told about Quixtar

- I was told stacking was the only way new IBO's were signed and I was told I couldn't have my own "leg" until i had a good grasp on the system (which i was told usually takes a year).  Specifically, the following illustration was used to show me my "spot"

--------O

---------O

----------O

-----------O

------------O

-------------O <- this person wasn't even present

--------------O <- this is your spot

---------------O <- don't know these people

----------------O

-----------------O

------------------O

-------------------O

- Told me that I could make money within a few months (specifically mentioned how Marks made 6 figures in 31)

- When I got my package from Quixtar, i questioned the relationship and I was told that they were just a supplier and TEAM was independent.

---

Now, those are all things that don't surprise me and I'm not mad about either, I kind of figured it out on my own.  TEAM is still feeding off the ignorance of the new IBO's and they are selling them a promise that just doesn't hold true for most.

However,  I would have to strongly agree that Quixtar is promoting an improved efficient system of distribution but refuse to make the products cost effective.  In fact, most products after the 25% discount are still more expensive than what can be obtained locally.

In regards to the complaint filed, you can't tell me that TEAM wasn't aware of all of this from day one.  The fact that they are just now trying to use these items to get what they want (the ability to approach and persuade current IBO's to transfer) is a joke and shows how they are only interested in securing their financial situations.

Sad and confused said:
August 15, 2007 2:39 PM | #

Here's why they would hold people to a contract... BECAUSE IT'S A CONTRACT.   You are bound by it if you agree to it.  Oh wait... you didn't agree to it.... maybe that's because it was glossed over along with BSMAA.  As my platinum told me... that's just legal mumbo jumbo, don't worry about it.

Steve Y said:
August 15, 2007 3:08 PM | #

I've seen a few posts stating that TEAM had the most growth for the last 7 or 8 years within all the Quixtar teams...does anyone have any proof of that?  I'm inclinded not to believe it or the leaders of TEAM would be bigger pins...and we've also been told at our functions that our group has outgrown all the others every time it's mentioned.  Can we get some stats from the Corporation with a ranking and percent growth over the last 5-7 years?

Thanks.

JOHN said:
August 15, 2007 3:35 PM | #

There are going to be alot of opinions and quite frankly all of this bickering doesnt really matter.  

ALTICOR IS GOING TO DO WHAT THEY WANT REGARDLESS!!

The bottom line is you and I (IBO's) will never control the supplier, therefore we are never really free to conduct our business.  If your supplier is overpriced you find another.  Simple as that.  Anytime Q/A wants to change the deal, they can. Apparently the IBOAI is powerless and quiet frankly the corporate people dont seem to really care about hearing what is in the best interests of the people anyway.  The people are the true magic of this business.   Take a survey Alticor.. there is a reason that the majority dislike Amway.  I personally love the company and love the heritage that they stood for.  But history is history.. wayward unethical distributors of the past ruined that for the rest of us.  Amway is a wonderful company.  The reputation from the past isnt.  DUMB MOVE.

TEAM has figured out a better way to build teams.  Legally, morally and ethically.  True, there are people who have "stacked" and that is unfortunate.  But the point is to team build correctly.  They are the most successfull in Q in its history.  TAKE SOME NOTES!!  

I have news for you Q/A.. the Amway school of business is old school, and if you ignore the rules of the new age, wealth will ignore you.  If you dont like change, you better get comfortable with irrelevance.

Team works when done correctly.  They have the best system.  The best tools.  The best leaders.  The most committed organization and quite frankly, you all irritated the wrong crowd.  I have been an IBO for 14 years and have a huge team.  Our loyaltys are to our leaders who love us and help us.  Not to a supplier who doesnt even care about what we think.

It saddens me to beleive that this is where we all split.  But similar to the fact that I wouldent keep a friend who was stealing money from my desk when I wasnt looking, I saddly cant keep you when your stealing my oppertunity to be competitive.

~A HAPPY HONEST, ETHICAL TEAM MEMBER..  FOREVER

Perry Abernathy said:
August 15, 2007 4:26 PM | #

Please stop the mud slinging. When you point a finger at someone three are pointing back.

I know people that personaly know Rich and Jay and they never said anything bad about Rich, Jay or their children. Billy Florence's son Rich is named after Rich. I wish that this had not happened.

Quixtar please remember; all IBOs are independent, each person made the choise to join you because another IBO showed Them This Business.

Joe said:
August 15, 2007 5:07 PM | #

Joe in pennsylvania. Who are the "Current" IBO board members? Was the IBO board consulted about all these new changes in advance, or merely informed? What is the role of the IBO board in the future? What is the "Jay" rule in setting prices? Why has the  $ expenditures for P.V. required for Bonus money gone through the roof in the past 5 years? When are we going to get "Price relief"? we cannot hve "Tiffany" prices in a Wal-mart world! We need change now or follow the path of the Dinosaures to extinction! Just track Quixtar sales for the past 5 years for proof! we have brought over 1,000 New Ibos's avg. per day to Quixtars door step...Why do they not Buy or stick? Anxious to hear your respones?

ken shinn said:
August 15, 2007 5:47 PM | #

i built amway to 4000 I don't want a cookie for doing that --my cookie crumbled because of lack of depth--I want to sell cookies-quixtar cookies are too high--release me so I can sell better cookies at a better price-

Thank you Rich let me go please-- let me compete and I will make you better too--

quixtar's problem is there is no compettition to make them better---Compassionate Capitalism--Rich Devos

JBR said:
August 15, 2007 5:54 PM | #

Mr. Krause own definition of "stacking" above is certainly NOT what the Team was teaching in anything that I have seen or heard from them and their training materials.  So, based on my personal knowledge which is not all inclusive, the Corporation's claims are without merit.  Does that mean that no one associated with the Team was guilty?  Certainly not.  But then every Amway/Quixtar organization I have seen has violations at some level of some form of the Corporation's rules.

At this point, it would be in the Corporation's best interest, and the best interest of all IBO's, if the Corporation would go ahead and release details of what they are planning in the way of major changes in how the business is going to be run.  Keeping all of this secret means that everyone's sponsoring is fundamentally on hold.  It escapes me how anyone could, in good faith, present this "opportunity" to anyone else when there are so many unknowns.

If nothing else, even if they turn out to be right, the Company has damaged their reputation and professional credibility.  The way that this is being handled is unprofessional and highly detrimental to the business of each and every IBO.

HSW said:
August 15, 2007 6:51 PM | #

Let's talk about the depth issue and it's profitabilaty for QUIXTAR.

The Team is building depth in such a massive way that it reduces the product profitability to the corporation by as much as 46% on a new Silver organization. The total Bonus compensation paid on a Silver organization is the same whether it is developed under the “6-4-2″ plan or the “Team depth” plan. However, the actual product profit is less in the “Team depth” approach.

More rewards are given to more people reaching higher % brackets and there goes the profitability for QUIXTAR.

The corporation has to face this loss. This becomes sizeable when more and more IBOs are building and growing their businesses successfully by the TEAM model. It becomes a massive threat.

The current Quixtar SA 4400 states the following:

“The average monthly gross income for active IBOs was $115. Approximately 66% of all Ibos of record were found to be active”.

Question:

How does that compare to IBOs on TEAM and TEAM affiliated organizations. The average monthly

PV per IBO on TEAM is quite higher (according to my information)than in other organizations.

Final comment:

With TEAM you are willing to step back in profitabilaty to help others gain. The payback will be a community that will last. Everybody wins. Long term.

Jimmy D. said:
August 15, 2007 7:57 PM | #

Why do so many of you keep comparing our pricing to Wal-Mart?  Seriously, have you never compared our QUALITY to theirs?  It's like comparing a Yugo to a Porsche, for goodness sake.  I've got nothing against Wal-Mart.  They're an American icon, but you're mixing apples and oranges when you put them in the same sentence.  Plus, you're completely missing the point of what makes our business so incredible:  the positive, lifelong relationships we build based on mutual trust and support.  To think anyone could build a lifelong business with a frontline you don't even know is ludicrous!  You want to tell me that some retail store's OTC brand of vitamins or shampoo even comes close to Nutrilite or Satinique?  You want to tell me their quality even REMOTELY compares to ours?  Honestly, you may as well gripe to the Mercedes dealers because they won't sell cars at a loss.  Let's be realistic here, everyone.  The reason our business has been around for soooo many decades is because it's built on the faith we all have in each other.  I trust my upline and my downline trust me because we sacrifice our time and energy to help each other build successful business teams.  I am very proud of how the corporation is weeding out groups who jeapordize the entire industry.  If Amway ever had a bad rap it's only because people were too lazy to do the work (product pickup and distro, etc.) it took to build it back then.  If people want to say that Quixtar doesn't work it's only because they're too afraid to face the possibility of rejection from people who couldn't build this business anyway.  Get a backbone!  People out there are desperate for an opportunity!!  Our corporation has the most incredible track record and represents a concept that our grandparents could only dream about.  I, for one, am in it for life.  

pedro said:
August 15, 2007 9:49 PM | #

They got fired? How can a business owner, an IBO, be terminated from his own business? Especially on the terms of stacking and not mentioning the Quixtar name? There are two types of people out there, concerning the Quixtar name, those who have never heard of the business and those who don't want to hear it. But everyone wants to be "FREE" right? So every upline and IBO I have ever seen show the plan focuses on the people they are presenting it to and what the people want to accomplish. They never blantantly mention or say, "this is Quixtar a multilevel marketing business", because of the fear of the misconceptions that people might have. I see nothing wrong with this. It's like a parent giving a child Braniums, which are chewy and taste good, because kids have the misconception that vitamins are "yucky". As far as stacking goes, I think you're B.S.ing us about the difference between that and depth-building. Do you seriously mean to tell us that the only difference between the two is whether or not the sponsor knows and maintains a relationship with the new IBO? YOU HEARD IT FOLKS, DON'T GO SPONSORING ANYBODY YOU DON'T KNOW AND DON'T LET YOUR DOWNLINE DO IT EITHER. ONCE YOUR CONTACT LISTS ARE EXAUSTED YOU MIGHT AS WELL QUIT BECAUSE IF YOU SPONSOR A STRANGER YOU'LL GET FIRED! Come on! Folks what happens when you sponsor a new IBO? Do you get compensated? No, but Quixtar does. That's where they make their money. That's where the newest IBO gets ripped off first! That's where a bad reputation and complaints come from. You only get paid when you have enough people under you, whether you know them or not, that are buying products. And with the product prices being so high- which is the second place the newest IBO is ripped off- you need to use a method that sponsors many IBOs quickly, i.e. stacking, so that you can actually make some  income in this thing. And with such a high volume of new people getting into the business you can only imagine the number of people getting ripped off and also the amount of complaints being generated, thus hurting the reputation of the business. Even though this may be the only way that you can create any realistic income, what does Quixtar care? After all, the more money that you make, the less money that they make. This business is everyone for themselves! Quit living in a fantasy and join the rest of the world in living for yourself. That's the only way to money in this world and don't you forget it! If you want to own a business, go start one that only you can fire yourself from. Because quite frankly, you don't have any ownership in this. The Devos's and VanAndle's are the only one's who have ownership in this at all. Do you want to tell me that neither of those guys have ever wronged someone in this business. Why don't the IBOs fire them? Oh yeah, cause they don't own sh*t! If you do what they consider "out of line or conduct" you can get canned just like many others before you. At least a job won't make you pay them to get started, or cut you off from the rest of the free world by having you buy the products that they make. I like the fact that if I work 40 hours I get paid for 40 hours. In this business you might work for 60 and get paid for 10. At least at first, until you meet other people-not strangers- that want to do the same. But come on, who would want to do the same?

ken shinn said:
August 15, 2007 10:42 PM | #

Stacking or depth building does not matter negatively if you have an upline mentor.  In the 90-'ssomone in my upline placed a distributor who lived fifteen minutes away under me in Amway who had a brother that was a professor in another emerging country.  I did not know the person and his brother I never met.  The brother in Brazil stayed in and my downline that I got to know bought product for 8 years because he hoped that one day he could reap some reward from his downline.  The company made money off of this couple who consistently did 200 personal pv per month.  They even bought the expenxive pet food.  My point is that volume was generated and I offered to helop them any time with sponsoring and did meet them to take them products.  If they would have quit like 90 plus of my downline that did not have enough depth--no volume would have been created.  Another point is my upline quit all the way to my non-active Emerald.  When my immediate upline quit and another sponsor linked to me for awhile, I did not know that person, but they had a vested interest in getting to know me since I was building the business.  The stacking and depth building is a moot point.  It holds no water.  When quixtar referred a new ibo to someone who inquires about joining, they give them someone geographically in the area to sponsor them.  They are in essence promoting so-called stacking with someone they do not know!  The integrity that I have checked out by The leaders of team is unmatched in the business world.  You blog folks trying to tear down their names do not understand that their outstanding reputations got them on the iboai board and they tried to push through changes that would better the ecommerce trend that not enough of america's ibos were getting to capitalize on due to the holes in Q/A.

Amanda Christianson said:
August 15, 2007 11:06 PM | #

Quixtar,  I am disappointed in you for not letting the Team leaders leave quietly.  All this bad press hurts the Quixtar IBO's who want to build something valuable for their families and serving you in the process-- by bringing more volume to your company.     Why would all those multi-millioniars just give up their businesses for no reason and then have to go to Federal Court to be released?    The names of the men who are on the lawsuit are huge leaders in this industry.     With the integrity of men like Florence and Haugen,  long time leaders in the industry,  something big is going on.    

Quixtar has been an industry dedicated to excellent costumer service and quality stuff for us.    In my opinion Quixtar has some of the best phone service to us product buyers I've ever experienced.  I wish the same excellence would have been extended to the IBO's who wish to leave and let them go quietly as to not distrub the businesses of those building their business the "original quixtar way".     When I signed up with Quixtar I was told that this was my business and I could build it anyway I chose to.   That I could build width and be profitable fast,  but statictics show it's very unstable and likely to fade away,  or I could put everyone I sponsor in one leg to create stability and give value to everyone's business.    I chose depth for my business and the results were worth the wait!  

The company would be wise to listen to the IBO's who are accually building this business in the livingrooms of this country.    Some people are not conserned with price, however,  most poeple are.      

 

Editor's Note:  We would let Team's leaders leave quietly. They're the ones who filed a lawsuit against the company that required response. Our own dispute resolution process would have kept this very quiet.  -- RL

Greg said:
August 15, 2007 11:30 PM | #

Joe,

Many new ibo's dont' buy or stick because they have spent most of their money on tools. When new ibo's look long term at the money and time commitment  of a system they eventually decide it's not worth it and quit. They don't continue to buy products because  they are upset about how they have been misled. There's your biggest problem Joe.

I've had no trouble getting former system ibo's back on products once I tell them there are no strings attached. No meetings, no cd's, no functions. Just products with great service! NO problem. There is life after systems.  Lets face it, systems are the dinosaur of this industry. If A/Q is to survive we need total company support fast.  

Because of the internet and blogs, most everyone now knows where the negative reputation of our business has come from. In the UK, China, Russia, India, US and other countries where there have been problems with gov regulations and ibo complaints, the root cause has ALWAYS, EVERYTIME, been system abuse and deception.  And everytime it was the huge resources of A/Q, not some pompous, arrogant system king pin, that has saved our business from extinction.

When our back is against the wall, it is always Amway to the rescue. The people that pay should be the people that have the say in our future. How many past board member are not in the business or have been terminated. These people should never have been in a position where they could have an impact on our future!

Finally, I hope prices are a little more in line with the coming transformation, but new prices without eliminating the system behavior that caused out bad reputation will not change anything.

We need one system... the Amway system!

To Bad for Everyone! said:
August 15, 2007 11:44 PM | #

I just find it ironic that Robin picks and chooses which posts she will answer!  I have viewed posts from both sides with valid questions, yet they are unanswered.  

Can't anybody really see through this?  Even without all the facts!  Unless I was present in that room I will never know the entire truth as to what happened.  There is always 2 sides!  

I just think it is pathetic in the way Q or A or whatever you want to call it has responded.

Robin, I would like to hear your answers on some of these great questions other than the ones that have made mention of you or Jim.

I have been in the Team for 4 years this month.  I'm not taking any side.  I just want to know where my future lies.  Because of Q/A's behavior I do not want to stay in this business.  Until I know the truth about TEAM (which only time will tell) I won't follow them.  However, I SHOULD be able to have a right to be a part of a different company and not be bound to a non-compete clause!!!!!  Especially after the behavior I have seen from its own employees!!!!  What a shame and a disgrace.  If Q/A really put IBO's first they would allow all of us to leave if it be our choice to go anywhere (whether another company or with TEAM) after this disgracing event.

Lets just say Q/A is in the right.  Should I still have to stay with a company that has no integrity or ethics after reading the blogs and their comments!!!  And if Q/A tells me yes you have to stay, WHY!!!!  You changed my mind in the way you have behaved!!!  I cannot believe your attorneys would allow you to speak on this issue the way you have and believe it would not hurt your case!!

Just for the record, all this garbage on stacking is nuts!  I have always been told to follow the rules.  I have never heard anyone in this business whether my upline, an open meeting, seminar, whatever tell me to disregard the rules and build depth as stacking.  The opposite has always taken place.  If IBO's cannot see the trumped up charges on stacking, I feel sorry for you.  And to be fair, I can't believe that I am supposed to believe that the TEAM just now figured out Q/A was a pyramid.

The only post I truly BELIEVE and AGREE with are the ones that say the IBO's at the bottom are the ones who are hurt the most.

I hope and pray everyone will be successful in their future business no matter where they chose to perform.  We build a business for our family's financial security!!!  There is no security in the corporate world anymore.

As for Q/A:  Let people have a choice in leaving or staying.  You just may be surprised at how many stay and how many leave and not go with the TEAM.  Also, why would you coerce people in staying in your business?  Doesn't make sense.  They are not going to be profitable to you anyways.  Oh wait, I know it is their punishment to their children's financial future:  If your not going to make me profitable then I'll be darned if I'm going to let you earn an income to feed your children for six months!!! I'll show you!!!!

I think its sad!!!

 

Editor's Note:  Regarding my responses to various posts, I provide "quick" responses to some of the issues I can, and I hope where people are reading them they will apply those same quick responses to their similar questions. I've prompted other questions to be answered through new blog posts. And others are on the list of questions for which we need to provide the appropriate answer. Please also understand that there won't be willy-nilly answering of questions with "I think" as the lead-off comment.  In the end, I and other bloggers here are agents of the company and everything we say could become evidence in the class action lawsuit. Most of the comments in here by others, however, whether they are backed by facts, reflect personal opinions, or simply restate the comments provided by Team's leaders, do not pose any risk to those making them. Thank you for your patience as we try to address all of your issues with the facts.  --  RL

Stacey Lane said:
August 16, 2007 12:47 AM | #

This whole situation sickens me.  Over the last 6 years, I have put over $100,000 in buying Quixtar products and probably haven't even received 10% back.  I have put at least $50,000+ into the "systems" side of the business (not TEAM system) and have never received a dime.  I have put 5-6 days a week into the business with the idea it would really work for me.  I believed in both Quixtar and the "system".   The "system" was a lifesaver for me and I am prepared to stay with the "system" side of the business if I am permitted.  Learning to be the best you can be is a good thing.  However, I have chosen not to stay with Quixtar because of their searing, scathing letters against some of their IBOAI members.

Before reading those, I never had any intention of leaving the Corporation, even if it had gone back to Amway.  It is totally against what I was taught by my upline.  We were taught to NEVER EVER talk trash about the Corporation, our upline, or downline, that this was a business of integrity.  Now I have questioned everyone, the Corporation for t