Amway Global Ada-tudes: A View from the Top : The 'T' Word

The 'T' Word

Friday, March 02, 2007 by Jim Payne
Category: Quixtar Strategy, Transparency, Business Support Materials

There have been varied and many opinions on motivational tools and their impact (pro or con) on the business. In my opinion, motivational tools, when used to support the Quixtar or Amway business, have a positive impact on the overall business. I am not aware of a successful IBO organization in the world that does not use some form of training, support, and motivation for their business. However, we also acknowledge that business support materials are not positive if the primary purpose of an IBO’s business is to create sales / income from that material. The name “business support materials” is also the proper positioning in that they should be designed to support and assist a Quixtar IBO in their effort to build their Quixtar business.

While not perfect ... yet ... a lot of good work has been done with IBO leaders and the Independent Business Owners Association International (IBOAI) in this area. Significant changes have been and are being made ---- the launch of the Quixtar Professional Development Accreditation Program (PDAP) is just one example of how we have improved this issue for the business. PDAP is new to our business and today is voluntary. It is an important step forward in our efforts to become more transparent. We will continue to refine this process in collaboration with the IBOAI and the Line of Sponsorship (LOS) until it meets our intended goals. I see more and more organizations moving towards PDAP as the marketplace demands greater transparency in all that we do. In the meantime, through our combined forces with IBOAI, specific rules have been instituted. For example:

· Every prospect must be given a disclosure document that advises the average earning experience of IBOs, and that some IBOs make money from the sale of privately produced Business Support Materials (BSMs).

· All IBO--produced materials shown to prospects must be authorized by the company prior to use.

· Any IBO--produced materials showing the compensation plan must be authorized by the
company prior to use.

· Messages are given to purchasers of BSMs that indicate the voluntary nature of these materials. I know some folks have talked about the "unseen pressure" of buying BSMs. I believe this one must be decided personally by each individual. If they feel pressure, they should walk way and not participate. Walk away and join another organization. No one is holding a gun to their head that I am aware of ... if so, let us know. The Business Support Materials Arbitration Agreement (BSMAA) supports this.

· Sellers offer a 180-day buy back of any materials.

· Producers of functions, etc, offer a satisfaction guarantee on the meeting ticket price.

Business Support Materials have a place in our business. They are there to support the Quixtar business, they are not THE business. Progress is being made, transparency in this area is being asked by the marketplace. I believe IBO leaders understand this and are working with us to find the "common ground" that is required to enhance and grow our overall reputation.

Comments

Tex said: March 2, 2007 5:05 PM | #

Jim,

Thanks for taking on the tool profit issue, directly (speaking).

The most important point you made was "...we also acknowledge that business support materials are not positive if the primary purpose of an IBO’s business is to create sales / income from that material."

I also have no issue with the information in the BSM. Some of it I don't agree with, but I also don't think anyone should agree with everything that anyone says, or you would be talking to yourself, and that's a whole different problem.

The PDAP is a step in the right direction, but only if there are additional changes. Leaving it the way it is now puts a "stamp of approval" on something that should be considered a "work in progress". There are no requirements for IBO's to be able to see the tool profit contracts, and I assume a Platinum can't see an Emerald contract, etc. This means IBO's less than Platinum are not aware of the LEVEL of tool profits, which is the key issue.

While the disclosures you mentioned are available, and there is no literal gun being held to anyone's head, at least to my knowledge, there is an inherent weakness in the protections in place.

The corp. is often described as "just the products supplier", and statements like "we know how to build the business, don't worry about reading the rules", coupled with the existing family and friendship relationships that are often present, all significantly water down the actual effect of these rules.

The only way out of this is tool profit transparency for all IBO's. Only then can the free market operate properly.

As long as the attitude is that we are just getting started with this process, rather than almost at the destination, I think we are "off and running" in the right direction.

Jeffrey said: March 2, 2007 11:20 PM | #

The thing that frustrates me the most with my upline's system is that it is all or nothing. If I want to know when an Open Meeting is in the area, I have to subscribe to his website for an entire year. If I want to buy a CD, I have to subscribe to his website to find out when a function is where there will be a tool table. The promotions are only open to those who subscribe to the website and come to the function to get a copy of the rules. Even if I just have a question (any topic), the first question is, "Do you have your tickets to Family Reunion?" (or which ever function is next). Then it's "You can get your questions answered there." I cannot even get a list of the CDs and DVDs that are available unless I subscribe to the website. Of course, we cannot order tools directly from his website. I cannot order tools from my immediate upline sponsors because they are no longer active. My Diamond is 700 miles away. So that is why I struck out on my own. This is why I think it would be incredible if Quixtar would take over the tool system. All the approved tools from all the different lines of sponsorship would be available to everybody. The uplines could promote the ones they liked the best and everybody, from the newest IBOs, all the way to Diamond and Crown Ambassador would make their money and business volume from retailing, consuming, and building a group that does the same, like the way it was when the company was founded. When everybody gets EVERYTHING from the company, including their business training materials, that will be when everyone begins to again pledge allegiance to the company and you no longer have people saying, "they are just our supplier," or "we chose these guys because they have the best infrastructure." Or maybe Quixtar could at least produce the training materials for those IBOs that either don't have an active upline that has a tool system, or chooses not to participate in his/her upline's system. It would be worth doing some reasearch on. I would certainly buy tools from the company. I was elated to see there will be Quixtar Connections in June. I am going to buy tickets the first day they become available. That is my major function.

Skip F said: March 3, 2007 1:22 AM | #

Jim,

What about IBO's that don't have an active upline or the LOS is older and perhaps retired? What options do they have for BSM /regionals if they don't want to plug into an existing system.

As I read responses throughtout this blog and several others, it is very apparent that there are many IBO's who have had bad experiences with systems and would rather depend on Q for support. Unless Q/A makes the same BSM and regionals etc available, it is not a level playing field for non-system IBO's.

Years ago, Amway had tapes available with success stories, ideas on how to prospect and also retailing tips etc. We also had some great "open" support videos such as "More Than Just A Living" and "The Best Is Yet To Come" just to name a few. Why can't Q

make these same kinds of tools available for those of us that just don't want to be part of a system any longer.

Also, having a few regionals across the country that would be supported by "ALL" LOS would be fantastic for everyone. If the larger LOA don't want to help support the Q regionals then we know they are more interested in their own tool profits than the overall growth of Q!

Jim, I think you know that there are many IBO's waiting for Q to give them another option for BSM.

When is the next Q regional not counting the next Q function in Grand Rapids next summer! We are waiting!

Piet said: March 3, 2007 1:02 PM | #

To paraphrase Lance, It is not about the tools, it is not even about the tool profits.

As I said elsewhere, tool profits are not important - whether the IBO can afford the amount of tools that he is buying is important.

I don't know what Amway's profit is on the products I sell, neither do I care. The same with the tools.

However, if my upline requires me to stock up on product, or buy to reach a pin level, or to buy more than I can afford (be it product or tools) I will not accept that.

But at the heart of the problem, is that there is a very unique relationship between an up-line and his down-line. They are mutually dependent on each other for success. However, the nature of the LoS places a lot of the power in the up-line.

And it certainly has worked very well over the decades, because a mature responsible up-line will know that it is in his long-term interest to make certain that everything he does benefits his down-line, and not vice versa.

Unfortunately it is in the nature of the human animal that some people will try and take advantage of others. They abuse the position of authority/ influence that they have, in various ways. This has happened in Amway, as it has in any other sphere of life.

Examples in Amway include tools abuses, product loading upfront, urging people to buy product more than what they need or can retail, and sometimes the relationship gets off on completely the wrong foot by misusing the curiosity approach.

The best solution that I can think of is to develop a "charter" detailing the rights and responsibilities of Amway/Quixtar, the business support group, and the individual IBO. Part of that is an avenue of recourse for IBO's that feel they have been hard done by.

This charter should be a one pager, either as part of the business kit, or as part of a "leave-behind" type of brochure such as we have in South Africa.

Probably 99% of the people in the various LOS's do not need this, because they don't abuse their down-line. In any case, those that do, are weeded out sooner or later.

And that is one of the beauties of the model - the cream rise to the top.

Allan said: March 3, 2007 5:13 PM | #

Tex,

If you are going to criticize as process as inadequate, you should study it first. PDAP already prohibits the statements you put " " around as if they are fact. Actually PDAP isn't needed as Quixtar's rules deal with this. Since you obviously have first hand knowledge, based upon your quotes, call Quixtar. They will connect you to Alticor's rules and Conduct division. Swift action will follow. Then you can come back here and blog with knowledge instead of just rehashing the same story over and over that you have gathered from other sites.

ibofightback said: March 3, 2007 9:55 PM | #

This in many ways is perhaps more the issue - not the rules per se, or lack of, but a perceived lack of "enforcement". Even if some kind of action does occur, most IBOs or prospects are probably never going to know.

Tex said: March 4, 2007 8:24 AM | #

Piet,

I totally disagree with your point that the major problem is not tool profits. You need to read the various lawsuits I referenced and explain that position.

Allan,

I have studied the process, and found it to be inadequate.

I'm not clear what you mean by your PDAP prohibiting my " " statements, please be more specific. My main point is PDAP does not require tool profit disclosure to most IBO's. I confirmed that with Q rules several months ago. Nothing has happened, because tool profit disclosure to most IBO's was not intened with PDAP. That is why I said it was inadequate, as it should disclose this information.

I have brought plenty of knowledge from my own experiences and have combined them with consistent information found in various web sources.

Porkchopjim said: March 4, 2007 11:46 AM | #

Quixtar will be unable to compel established business building systems to disclose the profit that is derived from that activity. Nor should it try.

Instead, perhaps a way that would be agreeable to all would be first – Quixtar provides a comprehensive list of the business building systems that it considers ‘established.’ That way, an IBO may know whether he or she is participating in a recognized ‘system.’ This list would in no way be an endorsement, just for informational purposes. If Quixtar has the criteria of ‘established’ – which they do – they should be able to provide that list.

Second, this list of established business building systems should include whether or not that system has been through PDAP. While those systems that are through the PDAP system are public, those systems that are not is still unknown. Additionally, just knowing what stage a particular ‘system’ is, if at all, participating in the PDAP would be helpful.

Thirdly, a comparative list of the expected ‘business support’ expenses of the systems should be provided. If the support system is recognized as ‘established’ by Quixtar, Quixtar should at least have a minimal interest in the scope and cost of that system being used by IBOs. This not only assists in disclosure of expected expenses up front (transparency), but allows IBOs – whose first introduction to Quixtar is frequently through one (and one only) business support system – to compare services and prices. It would be in the interest of the support systems to provide, at least, supporting information on the benefits of their system. As with all products, some are more expensive than others, and some provide more or less options for IBOs, but the IBO should have a basic understanding of the different systems and philosophies associated with them. Listing of these philosophies and options can be provided as a ‘service’ by Quixtar to the IBOs and NOT construed as being an endorsement of any particular system/philosophy/service.

Stability of business structure and the preservation of the Line of Sponsorship is of direct interest to Quixtar and a degree of authority over that preservation is certainly expected and justified, but a review of the transfer of sponsorship rules should be reviewed and perhaps amended to allow for easier transfers amongst support systems – say within the first year of an IBO – as the IBO gets more familiar with the business and some of the options available for training and support.

I understand the difficulty Quixtar has with the business support systems, and the amount of influence those systems have over the corporation just from the resulting purchasing power using Quixtar as their supplier. That’s the nature of business. But Quixtar has a responsibility to maintain, and improve, it’s own reputation that may be tarnished by some of the systems that have associated Quixtar and its sister companies with less than honorable behavior – namely using the Quixtar business as a cover to run a ‘tools’ or support system.

That said, who decides on what constitutes a ‘business support material’ item or service? Am I, as an IBO, free to develop and market my own BSMs to my downline IBOs, whether I am in a recognized ‘established’ system or not?

- Porkchopjim

rocket said: March 4, 2007 6:08 PM | #

My questions to all this new and improved approach to what is wrecking Quixtar are as follows:

What's gonna happen if the "leaders" don't want to play ball and give up the enormous profits?

How much profit from the tools is too much?

How can you force the "leaders" to share what they earn with you, to make sure they aren't taking advantage of the masses? That's their own business.

How can you enforce this new way of doing things? If they tell you to buzz off, then what?

Then what indeed.

I think addressing your problems is great. What is missing is a way for you to deal with the problem. QThat's what everyone's waiting to see. Not just a bunch of, "well, it's going to happen, just you wait"

Transparency is one thing, which incidentally, I myself have only seen hints of.

It's fine if you aren't going to be completely transparent, I understand that.

Just don't say you are going to if that's not what you mean.

There's been enough meaningless words and feigned surprise from Amway/Alticor/Quixtar already.

rocket

rocket said: March 4, 2007 6:14 PM | #

I meant to also point this out:

" I am not aware of a successful IBO organization in the world that does not use some form of training, support, and motivation for their business."

That's because if someone chooses not to be on the motivational tools, they are completely written off by their "leaders".

Fact. Like it or not.

Further to that, the motivational tools do not produce fantastic results, and I sense this as a way for Quixtar to start bowing out of a real confrontation with the "leaders".

Many people are waiting for the day when Quixtar decides to show a bit of courage and do the right thing and deal with the problems. Make no mistake about it, and everyone already knows this, but your problems are the "leaders" of the organizations who sell these tools.

It's a conflict of interest and everyone knows it, especially Quixtar. You just don't have the jam to do anything about it.

rocket

Chuck said: March 4, 2007 8:26 PM | #

Jim Payne,

I appreciate your willingness to open this blog thread on tools and also your thoughts on the specific rules regarding BSMs and LsOS.

Because of the inherent inbalance in the relationship between the successful IBO and the new IBO who is looking to the more successful IBO for guidance and support, I believe it is critical to allow the new IBO more than one option in terms of acquiring business training and support materials. If a relatively new IBO finds his upline's approach to tools to be outside his value system or unsatisfactory to him, that IBO in essence becomes an orphan in the business. As I understand it there currently is no other avenue open to him to acquire training elsewhere. If Q/A began providing BSMs it would provide another source for training (which would be very helpful to the "orphan" IBO) and it would likely also put some pressure on tool prices from IBO system sources. In previous years tools and audios from the corporation have been priced well below the prices for tools and audios from the IBO systems, and the same is true of tickets to corporately sponsored functions and LOS sponsored functions. Also, having another option would allow for comparison regarding the quality of the tools provided by various sources and their perceived value and usefulness.

The PDAP should be made mandatory. Let all system tool providers know that they will not be allowed to sell any tool of any kind to any IBO unless they can clearly demonstrate they are adhering to every aspect of that program. It might even be helpful to set maximum prices for certain types of tools or tickets, which is not much different than the maximum expenditure rules Q/A currently has in place in other markets for new IBOs.

Q/A is the business we are in, the tools systems should exist to help IBOs build their Q/A businesses. Putting these kind of safeguards in place will make it clear to everyone that the corporation will no longer tolerate nor allow the relationship between IBOs and IBO systems to be abused or manipulated in any way.

Chuck

Piet said: March 5, 2007 11:25 AM | #

Should we distinguish between different kinds of tools?

Motivational

Product information

Quixtar/Amway information

Personal development

Business building specifics

To me the first three is generic. The last one is definitely not, because there are many different ways to build an Amway business. And as Ray Krok said, discretion is the enemy of duplication. So, I do not believe that A/Q can provide really useful business building tools - these tools need to follow the guidelines for a particular team, and needs to be applied, with the experience of an up-line counselor to the specific IBO's needs. Because the up-line has the experience to know how to stay within the boundaries of Ray Krok's rule on the one hand, and making certain on the other hand that rigid rules don't cause moire damage than doing good.

That leaves personal development. And I put it in the middle of the two extremes with a purpose. At first glance, personal development sounds very generic. But it definitely is not. Personal development comes from gaining generic information from books and CD's, then applying that in your life/ business. But once you have a mentor/ up-line that can sit with you, and review your goals and progress, correct your behaviour and next month you try again, and you repeat the process, your personal development moves up a gear or two.

As the Bible says, people shapes people. And I have an up-line platinum, emerald, diamond and crown ambassador that I would follow anywhere, because they are people worthy of following.

On the one hand not all IBO's are as fortunate as that, but on the other hand the people refusing to partake in their up-line system also needs to consider the message that they are sending: I am not a team player, I am not open to being taught, I am not willing to educate myself. Now, if you want to be partially a part of the system, you need to understand that your up-line is not going to understand what to do with you! What part of the system do you want to be part of? The portions that are free? I think not.

And to end of with, one for dear Tex:

Why do you think the level of profit an up-line makes, is important for the profitability of your business?

Jeffrey said: March 5, 2007 12:17 PM | #

Every single thing that Rocket and Chuck said in the above posts is absolutely true. I used to have so much trouble with my upline Diamond and his deceptive, ineffective system that it just wasn't worth it anymore. And you guessed it--when I pulled out of the system, I was automatically an orphan. Neither my Diamond, nor his office staff would even answer e-mails or return phone calls after I left. If you aren't in his system, he doesn't even want you in the business. My upline Emerald quit the business over it, it was that bad.

We need an online presentation to show the circles that we can walk the prospects through. It needs to show a 1 to 3 PV/BV ratio, and show the math, like the old tri-fold SA-4400 used to do. We should be able to pick the amount of PV for the circles, the number of front line, and the number of downline. Then we need the standard income disclaimers. Why in the world don't we have this? We have the presentation online but it is not approved for prospects--DUH! An online business with NO WAY to show it online. And the online income calculator is totally inadequate. If we had an online Presentation, I would have every single thing I need to build the business. Other MLMs have their compensation plan on their sites for all to see. Quixtar could have it up and running in a week or two.

We need to abolish the tool systems NOW. If we don't, there will always be a bad reputation and slow or no growth. Anything less, to quote the old rock classic, is "Too much talk and not enough action."

rdknyvr said: March 5, 2007 1:58 PM | #

Chuck and others:

Beth Dornan commented in her "Week Three In OZ" thread earlier:

"You'll begin to see several things happening in the coming months. First, the launch of a learning management system that offers free online training. It will be small at first but eventually grow to quite a library of training on products, selling, business management, etc. You'll also see that there are a lot of free downloads already available and you'll see more and more in the future."

Quixtar is on the right track and the evidence does suggests they are building effective options to allow IBOs the ability to move forward successfully with or without system tools. I agree that this issue has hampered, even hamstrung them, but I know from my own corporate experience that effective change -- done right -- does not take root and grow overnight, much as one might wish. I date the beginning of significant change with the start of the "stewardships" of Doug D and Jim P (not to diminish others working on this knotty issue earlier). Much sooner, rather than later, "system tools" as an issue will become moot, in my opinion.

I personally do subscribe to the tools and website options offered by the LOA I'm affiliated with. Sometimes the CDs are worth every dime and sometimes less so, but I choose voluntarily to subscribe. I should also say that I spend MORE per month on my own, out of my own pocket, on business books and motivational resources -- Amazon, seminars etc. -- that help me with both my "day job" and this business -- than I do on my LOA supports, if that provides another perspective on the need for some form of continuing education and inspiration in any business environment.

I am supportive of the commentary in this forum around the need for change -- the abuse issue has been like ice on the wings of the Quixtar jet, so to speak. But my own goal is to build an outstanding Q-driven business that will enable me to achieve some other objectives in life that my current corporate job won't permit, and personally I'm not going to let lack of a completely problem free playing field deter me from moving ahead. Continue to share stories, make the criticisms, keep pushing the issue onto the front burner until it gets resolved and outgrown (or grown beyond), but don't overlook the processes that have already been initiated, and the integrity of the people working at Quixtar.

With respect and appreciation for your views,

Allan said: March 5, 2007 2:40 PM | #

Tex,

What you quoted as occuring is a violation of the basic rules excluding PDAP. Quotes indicate first hand knowledge. Report it. My experience is those responsible for enforcing the rules, do not respond to urban rumors on the web but do respond if they receive something of substance.

rocket,

If a leader is actually a leader eliminating someone from a Quixtar buisness seems rediculous. Instead of another general statement here is a specific one.

I recently attended a nutrition seminar that was primarily about Nutrilite. This is conducted jointly by Quixtar and our upline. While there I ran into someone I knew that was in the buisness but hadn't seen for awhile. He told me that he was not building an organization but had decided he wanted to focus on just selling the nutrition related products so he wasn't attending the functions. His upline keeps him informed as he is not "plugged into" the system so he can take advantage of any product oriented programs ih he chooses. Sound to me like his upline has the same common sense as mine. Tell them what is available and let them choose what they want.

Tex said: March 5, 2007 3:49 PM | #

And a response for "dear" Piet,

Review my latest "Transparency and Responsibility" entry, it ties in with this topic directly.

The tool profit for upline comes directly out of my back pocket and into theirs. We are shown the amount for A/Q profit in the plan, but not for tool income, which is often much more than A/Q income. Why would you not share the major source of profit to your "teammates" and "business partners", especially since tools are the major profit source, AND it is coming out of my pocket?

Therefore, every dollar they get from me for tools (recordings, books, and functions) means one more dollar I am away from turning a net profit for my business.

When they decrease tool prices, I get to a net profit situation sooner (for a given PV level). I would have much less reason to quit if I was making a net profit.

And it's not just me, it is my entire group.

I suggest you go back through the discussions and start answering some of the questions I have posed, you may find your up-line platinum, emerald, diamond and crown ambassador are not worthy of following, unless they are "transparent and responsible" regarding their tool profit.

Transparent meaning you know how much they make.

Responsible meaning this is common knowledge among all IBO's in their group.

Anything less means they must be ashamed of this income, or what other reason exists that they would not talk about it openly with their "teammates" and "business partners", my dear Piet?

ibofightback said: March 5, 2007 5:29 PM | #

Porkchopjim -

A list of LOAs (ie "established systems") is on Quixtar Facts and has been there as long as I can remember -

http://www.quixtarfacts.com/us-en/IBOs/loa.html

A list of accreditated "systems" is on -

http://www.quixtaraccreditation.com

Tex said: March 5, 2007 6:02 PM | #

Jeffrey,

I agree. I discussed the online plan situation with the rules department, and after quite a bit of discussion, they allowed me to use it. The reason for not being allowed to use it was it is a 9-4-2 model, which may not be the model your upline typically uses. I have their permission in writing (e-mail), which you may want to get, as the site clearly says "not for use with prospects", or words to that effect.

Allan,

What good does it do to accuse someone of breaking a rule when there is no evidence? These are all verbal words at open meetings and major functions, where recording is not allowed (ever wonder why?). Who is Q going to believe, me or a Platinum and above? I choose not to wrestle with the pigs, you get dirt all over you and the pigs enjoy it. I prefer to expose what they are doing, and find this to be a very effective forum to do so. I also want to "fly under the radar", and not stir things up with my upline.

Jeffrey said: March 5, 2007 6:44 PM | #

The other thing that Quixtar needs to do as soon as possible is to abolish the IBOAI. For the most part, all they are is the tool producers that want to protect their tool incomes. By being on the IBOAI, they look like they're "working" on a solution. They're working on it all right. Working to keep it from going away. The federal government is also working to "protect" your freedom. And if you believe that.....

ibofightback said: March 5, 2007 7:13 PM | #

Just to be clear tex, we have no idea of A/Q's profits, and without detailed knowledge of an upline's structure we have no idea of an upline's profits from A/Q either.

Your posts re "tools" don't always discriminate between knowing the profits of the owners of the system companies - which are equivalent to A/Q, and for which we have know knowledge of profit - and knowing the profit upline may be making from tools rebates. Plus of course any speakers fees, which are a separate issue.

Overall I think the PDPs letting all IBOs, rather than just platinums and above, know their rebate schedules would be a good thing. However, as you know, a rebate schedule for one PDP was released by a critic on the 'net and analysis showed the overall profit was lower than for A/Q products, which kind of destroys your whole thesis.

Still, I too encourage further transparency on this issue.

rocket said: March 5, 2007 8:54 PM | #

Allan said

"If a leader is actually a leader eliminating someone from a Quixtar buisness seems rediculous."(sic)

Not if the majority of the income the "leaders" earn comes from the sale of "tools" and not through the movement of products.

Do you get it yet? The "leaders" don't care about your PV. They care about you being "plugged in" or "on the system"

That is it.

rocket

Tex said: March 5, 2007 10:12 PM | #

Jeffrey,

I want to keep the IBOAI, just not the characters that currently sit on it.

As a minimum, the IBOAI should consist of some IBO's who have proven themselves interested interested in the rest of the IBO's, such as Chuck or Skip.

Any higher pin on the IBOAI must disclose their tool profits, to prove to the IBO's they do (or do not) have a conflict of interest with respect to tool profits being their primary business venture, and A/Q being a "side business".

ibofb,

We have an "idea" of A/Q's profits, take $6.3 billion and make some assumptions. We also have average income for various pin levels from A/Q. Don't you believe these figures?

They are ALL IBO's, tool owners or "rebate" IBO's. "Speaker fees" are only a watered down term for making tool profit at functions than via tapes/CD's and books. It is quite common for outside speakers to be thanked for coming to a major function "out of the goodness of their hearts", and then given "a token of our appreciation", such as a flying eagle, etc., but they are also handsomely paid for the appearance and this fact is not mentioned.

We both know the accuracy of that posting was never verified, nor was it complete, as it did not include the entire tool system, especially none of the functions. When you include all of the truth rather than small portions of the truth, it is much easier to explain the

numerous lawsuits over tool profits. Otherwise, the lawsuits look silly. Also, my "whole thesis" is proven when you consider all of the facts, rather than a few partial facts that don't show the whole picture.

I favor transparency as well. Let's start with your upline, ibofb. How much do they make on tool profits? Nothing quite like the truth than when it hits home, right ibofb?

rocket - exactly correct. That has been my PERSONAL experience. Go off of standing order, and it is as if you were never involved in the business.

ibofightback said: March 5, 2007 11:52 PM | #

I think it needs to be made clear that different people have had different experiences. There have been millions of IBOs over the years, there are dozens of "systems" and there are even more individual uplines using those systems. Just because some IBOs have experienced something doesn't mean all IBOs have. Generalizations in either direction (positive/negative) are unhelpful.

Piet said: March 6, 2007 2:58 AM | #

(Copy of a reply I made on Transparency and Responsibility blog. I think this blog id more appropriate, and will continue discussion here.)

Tex said: 1. Makes a lot of IBO's broke,

Piet Says: Tool profits do not make IBO's broke, spending more than they are making does. And that happens by buying too many tools AND products. Whether the up-line makes a profit or not.

Tex said: 2. Gives A/Q a bad reputation,

Piet says: Once again, it is not the tool profits that give A/Q a bad reputation, it is the abuses of trust that take place. It is the fighting between BSG's over profits from the tools. And once again, the cases you quote are the same old cases re-hashed over and over in different forums. I haven't seen any recent cases, probably because A/Q has policies and procedures in place to deal with abuses now. (See the t-word blog.)

Tex said: 3. Provides very unhealthy incentives for the higher pins, as evidenced by the numerous lawsuits, and

Piet says: I agree too high per unit profits on tools could be a temptation for certain people to put the incorrect emphasis in their businesses. But that was identified in 1983, and Amway/Quixtar has put into place procedures to address the abuses. Can they stop them? No. It is not possible to have a crime free society. But they have made huge inroads. At last count that I heard, worldwide Alticor had 3 million IBO's who have renewed at least once. How many abuses can you identify that has happened in the last 5 years? Or that are currently taking place.

Tex said:4. the higher pins make much more money on your ticket prices, CD's, etc., than A/Q

Piet says: Of course they do, A/Q makes nothing. So anything they make, must be more.

Piet says: No I haven't listened to it, but I have read transcripts from the two tapes from 1983 that you refer to. They were made in 1983. They opened a can of worms. Remedial procedures have been put into place. You had your confidence shook round-about that time, it seems, and now feel you need to protect the whole of IBO-dom against the big bad up-lines. Just because your up-line lied to you 10+ years ago does NOT mean that my up-line is lying to me, or even that a large number of up-lines do that. It simply means, that 10 years ago your up-line lied to you. That 10 years ago ONE diamond and ONE emerald in a "blog" said they earned 2/3 of their income from tools. They never said, like you do, much more than 2/3! And that is the only FACTS that you have brought to the table so far.

I do not answer for my up-line, I answer for myself. My upline is way to busy building the business to allow themselves to be distracted, like I do.

Piet said: March 6, 2007 6:55 AM | #

rocket said: Do you get it yet? The "leaders" don't care about your PV.

But if they care about the tool income from you and your downline's it would still make sense to keep you in to go through you to your downline.

I never said there aren't abuses, I am saying that the abuses are being addressed, aren't as bad as some people fear they are. The abusers, through their own "rediculousness", through the market mechanism, and through A/Q following up complaints, will either reform, or end up with small or non-existent businesses.

Brad said: March 6, 2007 10:09 AM | #

I personally would like to see information on the PDAP. Namely, those systems actively showing interest and working towards accreditation and those who have chosen not to.

Give the systems and there respective diamonds a suspense, say, May 1st 2007, to declare if they are seeking accreditation. Then list the systems: Those that showed interest in accreditation, those that are actively taking steps towards accreditation, those that are accredited, and finally those who dodged it entirely.

It's fine to run your business at whatever level in accordance with the PDAP, but what do you do at open meetings? Seminar/rally's? and functions? In this instance, I could see it likely one could become an "orphan" if the system this IBO is with is not open to such diversity.

Tex said: March 6, 2007 10:35 AM | #

I came across an interesting article the higher pins and especially the IBOAI would be wise to read. If college courses can be taught online, why not how to put together a Q network? Of course, we know the answer, there isn't as much money in it as compared to the current tool systems.

Top Universities Post Free Materials Online

Editor's Note: This comment has been edited to replace the entire text of this article with a link. This edit was made for brevity and to ensure that the Opportunity Zone does not violate copyright laws.

Thanks,

Anna Bryce
Managing Editor -- Quixtar Opportunity Zone

Piet said: March 6, 2007 10:50 AM | #

Tex said: I am aware there are "soft sell" and "hard sell" groups, and even individuals within those groups, when it comes to tool sales. But that doesn't diminish the overall problem.

Piet says: How not? The "overall problem" is different when you have 1 SS vs 999 HS groups on the one hand, and 999 SS vs 1 HS on the other.

Allan said: March 6, 2007 11:05 AM | #

Rocket,

What I get is my experiences are 180 degrees different from the those you describe. Yes, I do utilize a system and will continue to do so as I long as I can see that the information provided is beneficial. Others, such as the person I referenced, choose not to use the system and yet their upline encourages them to get information in the areas that interest them. The overwhelming number of messages we have received on different techniques to acquire clients is just one of many examples that verify it is about PV and achieving that balanced business in acquiring it.

I am not going to say there are not foolish people that don't build this business right. Foolish people are every where, including this business. I am just sayin your global indictment is miles from actuality.

Tex said: March 6, 2007 1:19 PM | #

ibofb,

I think it needs to be made clear you appear unwilling to answer the question how much your upline makes on tools. How can you say you are different when you refuse to answer such a fundamental and revealing question as this?

Piet,

Tex said: 1. Makes a lot of IBO's broke, Piet Says: Tool profits do not make IBO's broke, spending more than they are making does. And that happens by buying too many tools AND products. Whether the up-line makes a profit or not.

Tex: IBO's are heavily encouraged to buy them as "the secret to success", and "nobody I know has succeeded without them, whether they are making A/Q profit or not.

Tex said: 2. Gives A/Q a bad reputation, Piet says: Once again, it is not the tool profits that give A/Q a bad reputation, it is the abuses of trust that take place. It is the fighting between BSG's over profits from the tools. And once again, the cases you quote are the same old cases re-hashed over and over in different forums. I haven't seen any recent cases, probably because A/Q has policies and procedures in place to deal with abuses now. (See the t-word blog.)

Tex: Some of these are VERY recent cases, the Kenny Stewart and class action are still active lawsuits. The most significant thing Q has done is put in an arbitration procedure that hides the facts, there are probably many more cases that never made it to the court system. There aren't any policies and procedures that deal with abuses any more effectively than in 1983.

Tex said: 3. Provides very unhealthy incentives for the higher pins, as evidenced by the numerous lawsuits, Piet says: I agree too high per unit profits on tools could be a temptation for certain people to put the incorrect emphasis in their businesses. But that was identified in 1983, and Amway/Quixtar has put into place procedures to address the abuses. Can they stop them? No. It is not possible to have a crime free society. But they have made huge inroads. At last count that I heard, worldwide Alticor had 3 million IBO's who have renewed at least once. How many abuses can you identify that has happened in the last 5 years? Or that are currently taking place.

Tex: See above, many cases probably never make it to court, and one of the arbitration conditions is never to speak of the proceedings. The lawsuits have affected hundreds of thousands of IBO's directly, and all of us indirectly, by association.

Tex said:4. the higher pins make much more money on your ticket prices, CD's, etc., than A/Q Piet says: Of course they do, A/Q makes nothing. So anything they make, must be more.

Tex: What I meant by that statement is the higher pins make much more from the tools than they do from their A/Q income. I think you know that by the context of the statement.

Tex said: Of course the profit you make from using the tool is important, but this should not result in the vast majority of profit for higher pins coming from the tools themselves. Have you listened to "Directly Speaking"? Do you enjoy being lied to by your upline, while they take you and many other IBO's to the cleaners? Piet says: No I haven't listened to it, but I have read transcripts from the two tapes from 1983 that you refer to. They were made in 1983. They opened a can of worms. Remedial procedures have been put into place. You had your confidence shook round-about that time, it seems, and now feel you need to protect the whole of IBO-dom against the big bad up-lines. Just because your up-line lied to you 10+ years ago does NOT mean that my up-line is lying to me, or even that a large number of up-lines do that. It simply means, that 10 years ago your up-line lied to you. That 10 years ago ONE diamond and ONE emerald in a "blog" said they earned 2/3 of their income from tools. They never said, like you do, much more than 2/3! And that is the only FACTS that you have brought to the table so far. ------------------------------------------------- Whatever action was taken was entirely inadequate, as the same problem still exists. I brought several lawsuits to the table, not just one diamond and emerald. I have always said the emeralds and above make about 2/3 or more, not that all of them make much more than 2/3 of their income from tools than A/Q

I do not answer for my up-line, I answer for myself. My upline is way to busy building the business to allow themselves to be distracted, like I do. --------------------------------------------- Good, keep paying him for your tools, and he'll continue to be your best buddy.

Eric: Thanks for the moral support. I do not reply to try and convince Tex, nobody has done so in ten years. I am replying so that he can't claim credibility by default - saying nobody is denying this, when in fact they are just tired of arguing. Further If I can help a couple of newbies in the process, all the better. ------------------------------------------ I don't have to be "convinced" of anything, I have the facts on my side. You have also not answered the question regarding how much your upline makes on tools, just like ibofb, so any "newbies" can clearly see you are being anything but transparent.

rocket said: Do you get it yet? The "leaders" don't care about your PV. Piet said: But if they care about the tool income from you and your downline's it would still make sense to keep you in to go through you to your downline. -------------------------------------------- So they can make even more tool profit from your downline?

Anna, thanks for the link.

Piet says: How not? The "overall problem" is different when you have 1 SS vs 999 HS groups on the one hand, and 999 SS vs 1 HS on the other. ----------------------------------------------- I have seen plenty of blogs to come to the conclusion the situation is much closer to the former example.

Allan said: I am not going to say there are not foolish people that don't build this business right. Foolish people are every where, including this business. I am just sayin your global indictment is miles from actuality. ---------------------------------------- This is what transparency accomplishes, it levels the playing field, and those who have nothing to hide won't mind the information becoming more widely known. For the "good guys", it will be as easy as passing through security at the airport. I just don't want to be in the area when the people you consider "good guys" are passing through.

rocket said: March 6, 2007 7:34 PM | #

Allan said:

"I am not going to say there are not foolish people that don't build this business right."

So who are the non-fools? Diamond and above? Emerald? I know of one emerald who found that it was not as profitable. Another who publicly stated that the majority of the income is in the tools. He also posted checks which showed his profits from a function.

Are you a higher level than those guys?

Are you profiting from the system income?

There appears to be a number of foolish people involved. Heck, I was one of them.

What many would consider the most foolish thing to do of all is to remain in the business, despite the rampant abuses that are prevalent in the "tools" system.

If it was a minor blip on the radar, do you think that this blog, as well as Beth's blog would even exist?

Porkchopjim said: March 6, 2007 8:23 PM | #

Insider (aka IBOFightBack):

I appreciate the links, and have seen them before. I know that you, and certainly others here sleep better at night knowing they are there.

However, once again, if you look at those links – and that’s a hint for those entities that seem to spend more time monitoring other blogs when perhaps a little house cleaning might be in order, as this isn’t an immediate response – you may have come up with the same observation I made:

Team5K. Accredited. Are they part of ITeam or Team on the Lines of Affiliation Page?

So, it’s either that over 30% of the accredited organizations are not part of a recognized Line of Affiliation, or the LOA list is inaccurate, out of date or incomplete. Not entirely helpful, nor does it fill the intent of the request.

Also, it’s telling that some other IBOs request an update from Quixtar on the status of LOAs and PDPs in the Quixtar PDAP. Maybe certain IBOs are not completely satisfied with the answers they are getting from their uplines regarding how seriously this program will be entertained. The air of transparency is thinner in some circles than others.

And when I originally said that Quixtar should not be expected to, nor should they try to compel PDPs or LOAs to disclose what profit is generated from those activities – it’s because those LOAs and PDPs are private companies. Given that, they should compete as private companies in an open a market as possible.

ibofightback said: March 6, 2007 9:58 PM | #

Tex - I've said before and I will say again. This time in all caps so you'll be sure not to miss it - I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH MY UPLINE MAKES FROM TOOLS.

What I care about is whether I'm getting materials I think are worth the money I pay for them. And I am. If I wasn't, I wouldn't buy them. Pretty simple huh?

I also don't know how much my upline makes from A/Q. I don't care about that either. What I know is that Amway has paid me every single month exactly what the business plan said they would for my business. Exactly.

What anyone else is making is completely and utterly irrelevant.

Piet said: March 7, 2007 9:43 AM | #

ibofightback: I've said before and I will say again....

Piet says: Amen.

Tex said: March 7, 2007 10:02 AM | #

ibofb,

You have also stated if the upline is not honest about tool income and/or implies the bulk of their profit is from A/Q, this is wrong. So which way is it, your "caps" above, or the previous statement? You can't have it both ways, ibofb, caps or no caps.

Also, I do care how much my upline makes from tools (with or without caps), because I think that is the least a "business partner" and "teammate" should do for their fellow "teammates" and "business partners", which would be the "rank and file" IBO's.

Rich Devos cared enough to record his concerns regarding tool profits in 1983, and the same problem is causing Q to hemorrage, with virtually zero growth for the past decade plus.

The Glister (truth about tool profits) is out of the tube (on the internet), and you can't get it back in.

Perhaps you don't care, but you should. If you want to keep giving blood transfusions instead of stopping the bleeding, go for it.

ibofightback said: March 7, 2007 12:52 PM | #

Porkchopjim - I agree. (a) things need updating and (b) as you mention there appear to be IBOs that are not happy with the responses from the upline regarding accreditation. I too am very interested to see how Quixtar is going to deal with this. Traditionally, changing LOAs, especially below platinum, is discouraged, though does happen. If accreditation is to truly have benefits, then this needs to be simpler, and IBOs need to know it is possible and how to do it.

Unfortunately, due to the very nature of the business model, this opens up a whole new can of worms. I'm glad I'm not the one that has to deal with it!

I suspect that some LOAs, and to a certain extent Quixtar, are playing a bit of a "wait and see" game. Through offering "free shipping" and other sweeteners to accredited groups and through promoting accreditation online and in achievers, well, the message will get out. But you don't change decades of "the way it's done" overnight, not unless you want to cause drastic damage. Changing cultures and ways of thinking take time. I'd rather A/Q spends a few years doing it slowly, properly, rather than pushing to fast and breaking something.

And for the record, yes, I wish they'd started more seriously on this path years ago. IBOs doing the wrong thing don't harm non-IBOs and former-IBOs. They directly harm current IBOs and future IBOs.

Ano said: March 7, 2007 1:01 PM | #

Q "Connections" is June 9th. I wonder how many systems will supoort this? Go to Q site for more info

Tex said: March 7, 2007 3:34 PM | #

Ano,

That was rude to put the same message on every thread.

And many folks will tell you I have a very high threshold for this issue.

I am planning on attending, by the way. I have never seen this conference promoted by my or any other tool system.

Jeffrey said: March 7, 2007 4:40 PM | #

Not only does my upline Diamond not promote Quixtar functions, he discourages people from attending. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I'm going to Quixtar Connections. I think it's great they are having them again. I hope the conventions are back to stay. It will be promoted in my group as the big function of the year. And my mother-in-law lives in Kalamazoo, so I get to stay at the Relative Hotel. Can't beat the price! Some people have to pay for a good room but mine is good for nothing. (Just a play on words.) :-)

Ano said: March 8, 2007 12:40 AM | #

Tex,

Are you telling me you have never heard of these Q conventions. Q has had one each year for the last 4 or 5 years. I'm talking Q not A.

It was promoted on the site for the last couple of years for sure, but I was told that some system leaders didn't want anyone in their LOA to know about this so somehow Q was to able show two versions of the Q site. One with the promo info and one without. Those leaders that didn't want their IBO's to know about the convention got the site without the promo info.

Why did you think it was rude to put this info on ea thread. I did this so no matter what group an IBO is with they would read about the "Connection" here at least. It's too bad so many people have missed things like this because someone else does their thinking for them.

Jeff I'm really glad to hear you're going. Get the word out! You won't believe how refreshing it is to go to a COMPANY convention.

Piet said: March 8, 2007 3:14 AM | #

Piet says: Another example of your fallacious arguments. The two postulates are not mutually exclusive, so both can be entertained.

Tex said: You have also stated if the upline is not honest about tool income and/or implies the bulk of their profit is from A/Q, this is wrong.

Piet says: That statement does not compute. How can it be wrong for somebody to imply the bulk of his profits come from A/Q, if it does?

Further clarification required: What do you mean with profit? Is it per unit profit? If it is, is it contribution, or gross profit?

Piet said: March 8, 2007 8:03 AM | #

No, so they can increase the size of their network and the PV flowing through it. I thought that was why we joined the business... Cutting out anybody is foolishness. Fortunately, there are not many fools around.

Chuck said: March 8, 2007 10:43 AM | #

I've enjoyed reading the comments of everyone on these blogs and I appreciate the willingness of the Q/A businesses to make these forums available and Jim, Beth, and others for participating. The tone has been reasonably decent, in fact, far better than I have seen on most blogs. I've posted a few comments myself, but have decided this will be my last post for awhile, simply because I think it is time for me to get to work. For the first time in many, many years, I really do believe the company is serious about dealing with the important issues affecting IBOs and the Q/A businesses. That being true in my mind, it is more important for me to devote my time to building the business than to invest my discretionary time commenting and/or responding to comments. I promise you, I intend to be fully transparent as I build my business and I will let you know how it goes.

Here are my last thoughts for awhile:

TOOLS SYSTEMS: I still believe we have to start with the premise that tool businesses should support the Q/A businesses. It is NOT the other way around. Take away Q/A and most tool systems would die. They would no longer have any reason to exist and would have to reinvent themselves to compete in the open market against multitudes of other companies marketing similar products using the latest technologies. Does anyone really believe the tool system companies could market their products at the prices and volumes they do without a captive clientele (read IBOs)? Highly, highly doubtful.

A few years ago several states passed laws restricting how and where doctors could refer the lab tests they wanted done for their patients. The reason? Many doctors were sending their lab tests to labs in which they had a financial ownership interest. Thus there was no competition for the business, prices were higher than normal, and the patient was paying the bill because insurance companies cap how much they will pay ("reasonably and ordinary") for certain lab tests, with the patient paying the difference. The doctor is the one dispensing the knowledge (what your health condition is), you are paying for it, yet you likely don't know that he has a financial interest in the lab or that the lab's prices are out of line. The states basically said this was a abuse of the patient/doctor relationship and they required disclosure of the facts of the lab/doctor relationship and put in place restrictions on how the lab business could be referred to provide for far greater price competition. Sound familiar?

I will believe the tools systems understand their proper relationship with the Q/A businesses when:

1) they see their role as providing training and education to their downlines for the lowest cost possible (they could EASILY put the twenty or thirty talks on how to get a Q/A business started on ONE mp3 CD for $10); and when

2) they publish what they pay speakers to speak at the system-hosted functions so that IBOs can decide if they have received value commensurate with what the speaker was paid; and when

3) they provide to the new IBO -- from their first day in the business -- with a complete explanation and breakdown of what is paid to IBOs at each pin level in their upline on the tool business income.

Whatever tool profits the tool companies earn after they take those steps is fine with me, particularly if Q/A begin offering other training and support materials as an alternative to the system tools.

The IBO leaders say we work as partners in the business. I don't know of a single solid business partnership where both partners don't have a complete and full understanding of the dynamics of the partnership. So if we are in fact partners, PROVE IT. Disclose everything that in some way impacts the new IBO financially, or in terms of time, upfront, not down the road where it often creates so much ill will.

ESPRIT DE CORPS: There was a time in this business when every IBO, regardless of LOS, supported every IBO -- and every IBO and the IBO leaders supported the company. It is time to get back to that mindset. Many, if not most, of the issues the company finds itself defending, come from particular LsOS that have separated themselves off from the company in most areas. They don't support company functions and they appear to care little about how their actions affect the company as a whole. When one end of the ship goes down, the other end isn't far behind. Too many actions taken by uplines remind me of killing the goose to get one golden egg.

QUIXTAR/AMWAY: We need you to do what you say you are going to do. People are depending on you. Too often it has appeared that when courage was needed to deal with important issues the company was led by with "men without chests" -- men unwilling to make the hard calls and to take the tough steps needed to get things back on track. Please stiffen your backs and do what needs to be done. Look at the figures. The business is flat because of many of the issues that have been discussed here, nothing else. I honestly believe the rest of the direct marketing world is afraid to see Q/A get its act together, because if we do we have the ability to absolutely dominate the industry. So please do what needs to be done so we can right this ship and accomplish great things together.

The English writer and Christian apologist G.K. Chesterton was once asked what was wrong with the world. He responded, "I am."

You know what is wrong with my business? I am. We''ve all been sharing the issues we see that affect Q/A and many of our points have been valid and worth discussing. But it is not equally true that Q/A might have the right to ask us a few questions about how we are representing its business as we build our businesses? I wonder if we would be as forthcoming with our answers or as willing to even consider the questions. Worth pondering.

Tex, you seem like a decent guy with his heart in the right place. But please get to work so you will earn the right to be heard and your words will have a far wider hearing. Sharing our thoughts here, but not getting out and building our businesses, is the height of futility and foolishness. Over time it will result in no one being interested in what we say no matter how valid our words.

What is primarily wrong with my business? I am, so I am going to get to work. I've enjoyed all of you. I'll be in touch.

Chuck

Piet said: March 8, 2007 10:43 AM | #

Tex said: Piet, You don't think making 2/3 or more from tools and then implying the income comes from Q is a big deal? (From the Sx3 thread, I feel this is more appropriate thread.)

Piet says: Sorry I missed this earlier: Can you please show me where I ever came close to saying the above? This is ANOTHER example of the half-baked facts and illogical assumptions that you make and then dish up all over the internet.

For a balanced view of what is happening in A/Q, please visit the following link. It is not a whitewash, but a true reflection of reality, with links to both sides of the argument.

http://www.quixtarwiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

ibofightback said: March 8, 2007 11:45 AM | #

Actually I can't recall ever hearing any of my upline (either LOS or LOA) implying one way or the other where their "profits" come from. I have heard Jim Dornan state his families entire lifestyle is funded by investment accounts? Where'd the money come from for that? He's a founder's crown ambassador and diamond in multiple markets - plenty of cash there. He founded and runs one of the largest education and training companies - plenty of cash there. He writes books - plenty of cash there. He invests in real estate - plenty of cash there. Who knows what else?

What makes the most individual income these days? No idea. Doesn't matter to me. But if he says it's all because he started Amway, he'd be being 100% honest. His book writing came about through the personal development and learning he underwent to build an amway business. His education and training company came about because of his experiences and needs as an amway IBO. His ability to invest came about from the cashflow generated from these businesses. etc etc

All because he sat at his kitchen table one day and signed an IBO application. It all came from Amway. There is no dishonesty in that statement at all.

Nobody has lied to me Tex. Nobody has mislead me. Nobody has been dishonest. I'm sorry if you've had a different experience. But that's not my experience.

Clover said: March 9, 2007 11:19 AM | #

If leaders are so insistent on getting tools into the hands of their downline, why don't they rent them out? Let them charge a minimal price to help recoup their own expenses. IBOs would gain the knowledge they need to build successful businesses, leaders would enjoy a more profitable downline, and everyone would be happy. The only unhappy parties would be leaders in other LOAs threatened by this maverick organization devoid of mistrust, suspicion, antagonism and stagnation.

Gene said: March 9, 2007 7:11 PM | #

considering that Jim and Nancy Dornans bonus check at achievers this year was well in excess of 1million, and who knows what they made in thier monthly business, I would say that the idea of people not being able to make money outside of the tools biz is quite ridiculous.

Lehua said: March 9, 2007 9:16 PM | #

Where is Network 21 in the PDAP process? Are there any non-system IBOs serving on the IBOAI board?

ibofightback said: March 10, 2007 11:57 AM | #

Cn anyone explain to me why "tools" are called "tools" when so many people seem to think that they are simply for teaching the downline? A hammer is a tool for a carpenter. A carpenter learns nothing from a hammer. It's a tool he uses to practice his or her trade.

"tools" are called "tools" because they are to be USED. Lend them to prospects. Lend them to downline. Many, I'd venture most upline lend and give out many many tools to their downline. Free of charge. But sooner or later you need tools of your own you need to work with. To lend to prospects. To lend to downline. To USE them as tools are meant to be used.

At what point does the upline, who is after all just an IBO like anyone else, stop being the one who has all the expenses? Should my upline supply me with tools free of charge even if I make more money from A/Q then he does?

There' a simple solution. Every IBO - every INDEPENDENT business owner, who is responsible for THEIR business, buys and pays for whatever materials they think are necessary and useful for running THEIR business.

What an excellent idea. Fair for for everyone. And surprise, surprise - exactly the way it works now.

Tex said: March 10, 2007 6:29 PM | #

Chuck,

Although it is important for us to build our businesses, I think it would be unwise to neglect this blog. If we don't keep the pressure on to ensure the truth regarding tool profits is known to every prospect and IBO, AND we both go diamond, there won't be enough volume for Q to stay afloat. We must BOTH build our businesses AND keep the pressure on to ensure long term success, agreed?

Piet,

I never claimed you said 2/3 or more for Emeralds and above is from tools, I did. However, it is very probable your upline does make this kind of money from tools. So, let's get your answer to the question posed above, rather than dodging it.

ibofb,

You lie every time you show the plan, unless you tell the prospect HOW MUCH money at the Emerald and above level comes from tool profits.

As I have said many times before on various blogs, and you are again conveniently ignoring, I am not talking about the Jim Dornans (not because it is not true), I am talking about the typical Emerald and above, who DOES NOT have other sources of income.

When you get to the Dornan level, there is so much money they made from tools and then it was reinvested in other vehicles, it is hard to keep track.

Why don't you bring your non-lying, non-misleading, honest upline (Dornan or anyone in between) on this blog and stop standing behind the "Wizard of Oz" curtain?

Clover,

The answer is a simple one. They literally can't afford to do that, they depend on the tool income to maintain their lifestyles.

Tex said: March 10, 2007 6:37 PM | #

ibofb said: Every IBO - every INDEPENDENT business owner, who is responsible for THEIR business, buys and pays for whatever materials they think are necessary and useful for running THEIR business. What an excellent idea. Fair for for everyone. And surprise, surprise - exactly the way it works now.

Tex said: That is NOT the way it works now. You have a habit of saying to others things like "that is not universally true", and "that is not my experience", etc., and what you said above is not typical in my personal experience and reading many blogs from many other lines of sponsorship.

Tex said: March 10, 2007 6:46 PM | #

Ano,

I've seen them on the site in past years, but I have never heard a word from upline to mention them, much less promote them.

Since upline has a summer conference at about the same time that IS heavily promoted, it is difficult from both a time and money perspective to go.

Would you want everyone else to put an identical message on every thread?

Piet,

Tex said: You have also stated if the upline is not honest about tool income and/or implies the bulk of their profit is from A/Q, this is wrong. So which way is it, your "caps" above, or the previous statement? You can't have it both ways, ibofb, caps or no caps. Piet says: Another example of your fallacious arguments. The two postulates are not mutually exclusive, so both can be entertained.

Tex said: That was not a question for you, but I did notice you didn't answer it, either. Explain yourself.

Tex said: You have also stated if the upline is not honest about tool income and/or implies the bulk of their profit is from A/Q, this is wrong. Piet says: That statement does not compute. How can it be wrong for somebody to imply the bulk of his profits come from A/Q, if it does?

Tex said: It's not wrong IF the bulk is from A/Q and not tool profits, but in MANY cases, it IS from the tool profits.

Piet said: Further clarification required: What do you mean with profit? Is it per unit profit? If it is, is it contribution, or gross profit?

Tex said: Profit is in terms of a typical Emerald or Diamond, dollars per year. How much from A/Q, how much from tools. Very simple.

Tex said: March 10, 2007 10:49 PM | #

Jim (Payne),

As I have mentioned before, it would be much better to have a "top 3" issues that do not get pushed to the back of the pile as new issues are added.

I don't want to put a tool "spin" on new entries, but will do so unless the tool profit topic is given this kind of visibility on the site. It is not hard to do, either, because the tool profit issue is THAT intertwined into most other issues.

Ano said: March 11, 2007 10:49 AM | #

ibofightback

With systems, the main purpose of tools is to promote getting more tools. Q tools only promote product and business building info. Big difference!

Tell me why your upline can't help you build the business using Q tools?

I agree with your statement that "every IBO is responsible for their buisness". Let them get what they need from Q!

Piet said: March 12, 2007 3:40 AM | #

Tex said: Profit is in terms of a typical Emerald or Diamond, dollars per year. How much from A/Q, how much from tools. Very simple.

Piet says: Well, I have a different opinion - as long as the per tool profit is reasonable, and the tools work, I don't see any reason I should not use them. And if large, or very large number of people decide similar, well done to the Emerald or Diamond. They obviously have certain leadership skills.

Each IBO though must take his particular set of circumstances into account, and make his decisions. He is an INDEPENDENT business owner, remember.

Tex said: That was not a question for you, but I did notice you didn't answer it, either. Explain yourself.

Piet says: What I pointed out to you in my posting is that the question you have asked, does not make sense. It is in the vein of "Do you still hit your wife?"

Tex said: It's not wrong IF the bulk is from A/Q and not tool profits, but in MANY cases, it IS from the tool profits.

Piet says: How many is MANY? You keep on throwing vague accusations, referring to the blogs you have visited. I have repeatedly requested you to bring facts, not faceless accusations. You have also been asked to take your facts to the relevant department at Quixtar so they could follow it up. Have you done so yet?

Kurt said: March 12, 2007 5:43 AM | #

I'm new here, but I'll tell you all that I'm very excited to see this open discussion about issues that up until now were verboten.

Quixtar can, and will become huge when they fix these transparency issues being discussed here.

Yeah!!! I'm excited about this!

I think we're all tired of listening to the naysayers bash Quixtar. The worst part was that a lot of what they said was true. Hopefully this site will go a looooooooong way toward dispelling a lot of that.

In the process, a lot of the bad IBO's actions will be reveal, and you best believe, they won't like it. There will be a lot of offline backlash, so get ready.

I'd like to hear more about the pros of letting every IBO put up their own website. I think this would help Quixtar's image as much as anything.

The Internet surfer needs to see the thousands of happy IBOs rather than the naysayers and the official Quixtar sites.

I think this site is awesome. Keep up the ground breaking work!

Chris O. said: March 12, 2007 9:37 AM | #

Dear Tex,

It seems to me that you have a skewed idea of what it costs to do business, and to own and run a business. Or maybe you really do have a very greedy upline.

I pay a monthly membership fee to my upline professional organization, which provides me with many benefits for my business and my customers that I would not have at any price on my own. I also have the CHOICE of paying a higher fee to have access to CEP, at an average cost of $3.25 per download, or I can get CD's sent to me for about $5 each. I don't have to buy those tools, and my upline has loaned me more than I can get to for as long as I need them. I DO purchase these "business education seminars" because I get value from them as I build my business.

As far as the plan presentation being dishonest--aren't YOU telling your prospects that a large portion of that income at the top levels comes from BSM's?? Mine did, and I do--what's wrong with that? Where do you think most of Jack Canfield's current income comes from? It's not from "Chicken Soup" books, it's from his training courses and seminars he markets--that's part of the reward for succeeding--you get paid to tell other people how you did it!!

I am completely happy with my upline and my organization and the way they do business. If you are not, transfer to another LOS--either your upline will get the message from losing your sales (you do have sales $ to back up your position?), or they will be glad to see you go. Since it seems that only your viewpoint is the right one (but not for me or many others, Tex), which will it be?

Just a note: I registered one customer on Tuesday night last week and another Thursday at lunchtime-- based on the customer numbers, there were 3600 new customers registered in less than 48 hours! I want to be on that train and continue to fuel that growth, and I have a real problem with people who want to take that away from me. Your incessant negative diatribe on every forum and blog you can find has the potential to do just that, unless the rest of us "silent majority" start speaking up more often to give you a better perspective on how IBO's feel about this business we have and love!

Tex said: March 12, 2007 11:06 AM | #

Each IBO though must take his particular set of circumstances into account, and make his decisions. He is an INDEPENDENT business owner, remember. ----------------------------------- I agree, but it would be very helpful to make that decision from a position of knowing the facts, wouldn't you agree?

Piet says: What I pointed out to you in my posting is that the question you have asked, does not make sense. It is in the vein of "Do you still hit your wife?" -------------------------------------- See above, what do you call "reasonable"?

Tex said: It's not wrong IF the bulk is from A/Q and not tool profits, but in MANY cases, it IS from the tool profits. Piet says: How many is MANY? You keep on throwing vague accusations, referring to the blogs you have visited. I have repeatedly requested you to bring facts, not faceless accusations. You have also been asked to take your facts to the relevant department at Quixtar so they could follow it up. Have you done so yet? --------------------------------------------- That is part of the problem, but the former Emeralds and above who have come forward AND the lawsuits shine the light on the level of profit. Don't you find it strange there are no higher pins on this or other sites explaining themselves? I have discussed this Q, and they have said they don't know the level of profits, plus they were not very interested in investigating this issue. This was several months ago, and this and other blogs are forcing Q to reevaluate this decision.

Chris O,

I have an accurate idea what it takes to tell the truth about tool profits. Do you really believe your upline is going to continue to loan you tools indefinitely? What happens when you get a downline, are you going to expect them to loan your downline tools as well, or will this be your responsibility?

I tell my prospects a large portion of the higher pin income is from tools, and we are not participating in that system, as you have to be at about the Platinum level in order to have a net profit.

I asked Q for another line of sponsorship that does not abuse their downline with tool profits, but they said they don't know of one, and couldn't direct me to one if they did know of one. In the interim, we are using our upline's system in a very limited manner (open meetings and attending the monthly meetings on a quarterly basis) until we get big enough to stand on our own.

What 3,600 new customers, from your organization? If so, how many IBO's are in it? What is the average volume of these customers?

I have no issue with Q or customers, it is the tool profits that will be the downfall of this business if not corrected, in my opinion.

Skip F said: March 12, 2007 12:08 PM | #

Chris O,

Ten years of flat growth and countless hundreds of ticked off platinums and above who have quit Q contradics what you are saying about systems.

Good job registering 2 new customers. I'm sure you didn't need a system for that.

I register a doctor last week and he said he would be very interested in our Nutrilite products, just don't start with the dvd's and meeting he said. He had a very negative attitude about being involved with WWDB a couple of years ago and said he would never go that route again. Obviously it wasn't the tool expenses in this case. He said it was the never ending selve edification of the upline and the system itself that was a real turn off. Educated people can see right thru the phoniness! He said he had no problem with Q.

Believe me, he is not an isolated case. I run into this all the time. It's only because I've been around a while (30yrs) that I was able to handle his objections and negative attitude caused be his experience with systems. A new IBO wouldn't have had a chance! The fact that I was still around this long intrigued him!

Here is a person with great influence in the community. We need him on our side!

Q, the sooner you can fix the system scourge the better. It really does get old dealing with the same old system generated negatives!

Like I've said before, Q could give us all the tools we need. If uplines know they don't have the tool $ to depend on, they would work a lot harder building a solid pv generating business.

ibofightback said: March 12, 2007 3:52 PM | #

Skip F - what evidence do you have that the system Chris O is involved with has "flat growth and countless hundreds of ticked off platinums". Your anecdote is now evidence at all that the system he works with has these kind of issues.

The fact there are dozens of new diamonds recognized every year indicates *someone* is growing. And obviously someone else is shrinking. Use some common sense.

If there's groups with happy platinums and above, and groups generating few complaints, and groups not p***ing off prospects, and then there's other groups with "hundreds of ticked off platinums" and other groups generating many complaints, both from IBOs and prospects ...

... well, which groups do you think are growing and which ones are shrinking, resulting in net "flat growth"?

Take a wild guess.

Ano - we obviously have experience with different systems. The system I am part of is all about building profitable and stable businesses, not just selling tools. Indeed, on one of the "classic" CDs in our systems, a crown ambassador (who happens to be my upline also) mentions counselling with a downline IBO and the downline's platinum. He asks the downline IBO "who's your hottest IBO?". The downline reports a certain couple, and in the course of the conversation, it comes out this "hot couple" is not subscribed to the voicemail program. The platinum reacts "well they're not your hottest people then!" The Crown Ambassador's response - clueless platinum! It's about *results* not about who is subscribed to what. The tools should be just that - tools, not an end in themselves. That's *our* attitude. Don't make the mistake of thinking your experience is the same.

Jeffrey said: March 12, 2007 4:35 PM | #

I cannot keep quiet any longer. It is so blatently obvious that Quixtar management is not going to step up to the plate and stop this tool baloney. Plain and simple: it's an illegal pyramid because there is no end retail (the keyword: retail) consumer. Give the tool producers one year from today--March 12, 2007--to clean up their act and end their tool businesses. All the Diamonds need to do is post talks by themselves and their leaders on their websites (that they themselves pay for out of their QUIXTAR profits--Gee, what a concept!) that their IBOs could download for free. Some of the subjects could be: Getting Started, Business Basics (perhaps rules), Having your first meeting, Building a profitable retail business, How to do cost comparisons and product demos, Being loyal through Self Use, How to use the Quixtar site, etc.

Anyone that thinks they need a CD or two every week and 4 major functions a year to stay motivated so they can get 30 to 40 customers and sponsor 1 or 2 people a month, is a moron. It is having a believeable dream with a deadline on it plus your personal ambition to achieve it that builds the business. Not seeing how many tools you can buy.

General Motors and Ford Motor Company management didn't think building junk cars in the 70's and 80's was a big deal. They thought they could just put out junk and people would buy it (and put up with it) forever. Look what it's doing to them now. Other car makers are eating them alive. The same thing goes for this business.

Since the 70's, Quixtar management has had the mindset that it's no big deal that it's Emeralds, Diamonds, and Crowns bilk their organizations for literally millions of dollars a year in the name of "training and motivation." It's killing the Quixtar business. You cannot bring the sins of the former business into a "new" business with a new name and not have it tarnish or even completely ruin the new business. If nothing is done, someone is going to start a new MLM and do it right and eat our lunch. In fact, it's already happening.

Quixtar management: end this tool and function fiasco NOW so we have a business 5 or 10 years from now. Fix it before it's too late. And to the tool producers that don't want to comply: Buh-Bye and good riddance. Even if they are a Founders Crown Ambassador with 50 FAA points.

I say all that because I really care about this business and it's future. That's because it's also my future. This is all I want to do. We (IBOs and Quixtar management) needs to make the tough decisions now to continue on and go to the next levels: 2 billion, 5 billion, 10 billion. Or we very easily could end up in the junk pile with the Studebakers and Enrons. It would be tragic.

Joecool said: March 12, 2007 7:34 PM | #

The PDAP program seems to be a good idea, but I could see some LOS leaders simply telling their members something or justifying a lack of accreditation and if that IBO already has a shred of loyalty to the LOS, he/she is likely to disregard the fact that their LOS is not in compliance.

Piet said: March 13, 2007 2:50 AM | #

As I have said before, in the rest of the world, with the A/Q marketing plan, with the exact same tools, people are building HUGE Amway (not tools) businesses. In South Africa in the previous fiscal year, the first month of the year was more than the last month of the previous year for the first time in our 10 year history. Now remember that all the rewards close of at fiscal year end, so there is huge incentive to push during the last month of the year.

But the attitude that pervades our meetings is one of gratitude for the opportunity Amway is providing, for the quality service levels that we are getting, and for the quality products we are getting.

And everybody in the business can speak English, and they have access to the Internet, and the same blogs. After 10 years, not only has the initial rush worn off, but realism has set in. And the business is exploding, as I have just mentioned.

So remember, when you finger point a finger, three fingers point back at you.

Tex: When you put some facts on the table, other than the ONE emerald, and ONE diamond, I will discuss it further.

Tex said: March 13, 2007 10:18 AM |

Amway Global Ada-tudes: A View from the Top

Friday, March 02, 2007 by Jim Payne Category: Quixtar Strategy, Transparency, Business Support Materials

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Friday, March 02, 2007 by Jim Payne
Category: Quixtar Strategy, Transparency, Business Support Materials