Transparency and Responsibility

Wednesday, February 14, 2007  by Jim Payne
Category: New IBOs, Quixtar Strategy, Transparency

You've seen posts here and in other Quixtar blogs about openness and transparency.  That isn't just talk....it's a commitment we intend to follow through with action.

 

We must be 100% transparent in everything we do. The marketplace is demanding it. Historically as an organization we have not been good at this but we will get better.  The Opportunity Zone is one step in that direction.

 

The company and IBO leadership must be mutually accountable for our actions and reputation. We must align our efforts and keep our focus on continuing to make this business better... each day, for every IBO and new prospect.

 

We must all work together under one banner or flag -- the Quixtar business.  To use a sports analogy, think of the Quixtar business as the NBA. The NBA sets the rules and provides governance for the greater good of the league or sport. And each Line of Affiliation (LOA) might be a team that has its own identity, different players, and different creative or competitive advantages.  But the Bulls, the Magic, and the Pistons are all part of the NBA and represent themselves as such -- and the game's played the same whether you're in Chicago, Orlando, or Detroit. The same with our business -- people need to know this is the Quixtar business regardless of which organization is introducing it.

 

I'm with Quixtar's top leaders right now at our annual Diamond Club event. And we're talking about the future of our business and how we need to focus on the new IBO and IBO profitability and addressing our reputation issues. While we can't undo the past, we can make this business better in the future for all IBOs.

 

Quixtar IBOs are some of the best people in the world, and they deserve the best. We are committed to making this business even better and I cannot think of a better group of people to work with, to move this business forward into the future than the Quixtar IBOs and the employees who support the Quixtar business.

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Comments

Anonymous said:
February 16, 2007 9:57 AM | #

A recent magazine article in "Success" (March/April 2007) was an interview with Roger Staubach.  Some of the thoughts by this highly regarded (and incredibly successful!) businessman and athlete might throw some light on this issue of transparency and responsibility.

"Success in sales starts with believing that what you promise will be delivered."

"My most important role (as Chairman and CEO of The Staubach Company) is making sure our priorities as a company are in check.  We want to win business, but we want to do it right."

"We have people who call our company to get to me and they are not always truthful.  What good is it going to do you to get through, when you start the conversation by being dishonest?"

As on the gridiron, Staubach insists upon teamwork within his company.  At most real estate firms, brokers act as independent contractors, often competing against one another.  That doesn't make sense to Staubach.  He sees to it that all brokers share information, assignments, and fees, always putting the needs of the customer first.  "We will be rewarded if we keep that message of trust internally," he (Staubach) says.  "After all, if we can't trust each other, how can we ask our clients to trust us?"

Staubach friend, Bennett Glazer, speaking about Staubach and his company:  "It's all about integrity, values, and trust.  If you have those three attributes, and make sure your key people do too, there are no limits to what can be achieved.  Roger is about all of those ethics -- and he practices what he preaches.  Sometimes he gets penalized for it, but over the long run, it pays off."

Later in the same magazine Michael Shevack shared another insight, "Bottom-line obsession comes from turning the pursuit of money into a God and forgetting the real master your business serves:  the customer."

In Quixtar we have two customers:  the IBO and the retail customer.  When we deal with both of them transparently and responsibly, then and only then, will we deserve any measure of real success and profitability.

Chuck

Anonymous said:
February 16, 2007 3:50 PM | #

excellent blog post followed up with a truly excellent comment by Chuck.

Anonymous said:
February 16, 2007 4:17 PM | #

Chuck, I hope you don't mind, but I reproduced your comment on my

Tex said:
February 17, 2007 9:59 PM | #

Jim Payne,

Good talk, now let's see the action. I know it won't happen tomorrow, but it can't take years, either. Weeks and months would be what Beth offered as a general timetable, is this consistent with your thoughts?

Jim said:
February 17, 2007 11:58 PM | #

Here's a newsflash, everyone.  There's a reason why Quixtar has a lackluster 2% growth rate over the past few years, and its not attributable to lack of transparency.  What do they want to be more transparent about?  Income from the tool business?  When Jim mentions the importance of everyone knowing that Quixtar is the opportunity, is he being serious?  In order to be an IBO, someone signs the contract with Quixtar, gets an email from Quxitar, buys product from Quixtar, gets mail from Quixtar.  Is Jim suggesting that the tool companies hide the fact that they're involved with Quixtar?  Even if they did, they sign a contract with "Quixtar" in bold letters.  Is all of this nonsense Quixtar's excuse for its lack of performance?  I'm sorry I have more questions than answers, but this post was absurd.

I particularly liked the analogy to the NBA organization.  It looks like Q wants to have control over the tool companies.  Q is doing a good enough job ruining their business, what makes them think the tool companies will want them ruining theirs?  Again, the problem isn't transparency, it's pricing!  The majority of Q revenues comes from personal consumption of the products, not retail sales to customers.  This "buy from yourself" concept can't be legally promoted by the Quixtar (an MLM can't promote recruiting over retailing), so they let the tool companies do it.  Why do the tool companies promote team building and  "buy from yourself" models?  Because no one can retail the products!  The tool companies are not the problem.  Quixtar is the problem.  I don't want to hear, "Well, they're not trying to be Wal-Mart..."  Wal-Mart focuses exclusively on price, and guess what, they're growing, Quixtar is not.  Give the IBOs a core line of products that are competitive in the open market, products that the average consumer buys, and the tool companies would probably promote more retailing.  

Assuming Quixtar gets the tool companies in line, then what?  If Q were to gain control of the tool companies and run them into the ground, how would Q generate its volume.  They can't rely on personal consumption, which generates the majority of their revenue.  What do they do?  

Tex said:
February 18, 2007 5:51 PM | #

Jim,

Someone posted actual prices on another thread, and guess what, they are competitively priced. You are simply wrong about the prices. Sure, you can find some that are more than stores, but be careful you are comparing similar quality. Also, if you find a price on an item at Walmart higher than another store, would you stop shopping at Walmart altogether? I doubt it, and you don't even get paid for the volume you and your friends who you direct to Walmart like you do with the Quixtar model.

Face it, Jim. The problem is the tool profits becoming visible on the internet, not the Quixtar pricing. Your upline emeralds and above probably make MUCH more from the tools (books, tapes/CD's and functions) than they do from their Quixtar volume. Ask them Jim. After all, it is coming out of your back pocket and right into theirs. That's the least you can expect from your upline "teammates" and "business partners", wouldn't you agree? Transparency, with respect to where the bulk of their profit comes from, since it is DIRECTLY from you to them.        

Gene said:
February 19, 2007 1:13 AM | #

Wow, Jim (the negative poster above, not Jim from Q.com) and several others seem to really beat this whole "tools" thing into the ground.  I had a dog who once got a hold of a dead squirrel, and carried it around for hours, shaking it, growling at it, throwingit around, chewing on it, and barking at it.  The results?  he stunk, no one in the family wanted to be near him, and I had to go bury the squirrel.  

The tools business is such a red herring in this business.  There is a simple solution, and an answer to the problem.  Go show the plan.  Spend more time working with downline than you do cruising the net and raving about  junk (dead squirrel!) and the results may amaze you.  You wont stink, your friends and family and Team may start to enjoy being around you,  and you upline wont have to pick you up by your chewed, slimy tail and {mentaly} bury you.

Jim said:
February 19, 2007 10:13 AM | #

I'm surprised you folks thought my previous post was negative.  The facts don't lie.  Quixtar isn't growing, and it's not because of lack of transparency.  The fact that the uplines make money on the tool is a no brainer.  Of course they make money.  Orrin Woodward is very, very transparent about that fact.  He put it in bold letters in his book "Leading the Consumer Rebellion."  I don't have a problem with the tool companies.  If the prices were more competitive, more retailing would occur, and the Q company wouldn't have to rely on personal consumption.    

Tex said:
February 19, 2007 10:13 AM | #

Gene,

The tools business deserve to be treated like your dog treated the squirrel.

If the tool profit is THE major source of income for emeralds and above, it needs to be carried around (discussed) until the tool profits are required to be shown to every prospect and IBO alive, then it will be time to bury it in the ground.

If we go out and just blindly follow the existing systems, all we do is keep creating more "dead squirrels" that smell even more, and the internet has a way of magnifying the odor, and it's not good, Gene.

Ever wonder why the A/Q business has been stagnant in the US and Canada for over a decade?

Have you ever heard the tape "even a blind dog can go direct", in reference to handing out tapes to prospects? Sorry, those tools are now dead squirrels, and the profits they have created stink real bad, Gene.  

Anonymous said:
February 19, 2007 10:25 AM | #

Gene,

The idea behind these blogs Quixtar has opened is for IBOs and others to engage in dialogue with the company primarily, and with the other posters secondarily.  It is not to become an avenue to label, mislabel, malign, or impugn the motives of people who are sharing their opinions with comments like "chewed, slimy tail" and the like.  For years, and I do mean YEARS, the leaders in A/Q have hidden behind the "don't be negative" mindset, rather than honestly facing up to the real challenges and real issues that needed to be addressed as the business and the marketplace changed.  Everyone who has had any real involvement with the business knows this.  Anyone who has heard Rich De Vos' "Directly Speaking" talk to the leaders in the business in the 80s would know that HE thought these issues were of critical, in fact crucial, importance, and he raised them himself.  Would you call Rich a "negative" guy, a "chewed, slimy tail" guy?  Rich is the epitome of the positive individual, but that doesn't mean he is unwilling to see a problem where one exists.  The sadness for many is that Rich and Jay couldn't find a way to deal with the issue in a manner that was acceptable to them for reasons that they know better than I do.  How the company will deal with these issues today remains to be seen.  But I am hopeful.  The business deserves it and the IBOs deserve it.  However, the simple truth is that labeling or impugning others to make your points isn't helpful or appropriate.  Make your points and let it them stand on their own.  If they are worthwhile, they will find a hearing here.  If not, so be it.  it's dialogue we need, not misguided personal attacks.

Chuck

Anonymous said:
February 19, 2007 10:26 AM | #

Gene, I would have to disagree with  you completely as the tools being a red herring.

Everyone knows darn well that the tools are a really sore spot with people.

I'm not sure what Quixtar has in mind for being transparent, but what I forsee is them throwing their hands up in the air saying the tools are not their business, so they can't be transparent about it.  I will believe it when I see it.

Quixtar is a major piece of the puzzle because although the tools business is not Quixtar, Quixtar is the reason for the tools business.  IF Mr. Payne and Quixtar is serious, I smell a big fight coming on, if it hasn't already started.  Best defense is a good offence.

I find it very unlikely that the status quo is about to change, but its awfully nice to say it will, and I think it probably gave a few people a nice warm feeling inside.

But that dog & dead squirrel analogy was pretty funny Gene.  

It makes me laugh.

Gene said:
February 19, 2007 1:24 PM | #

Wow, after nearly a two page “dissertation” I figured that the above poster is right, maybe this is not the place to argue with other posters.  So, I scraped it, offer apologies to any who thought my reference of the dead squirrel was a personal attack, as it was not directed at any individual, but a the idea of any of us raving about the tools issue, and just have to say this: I guess it boils down to what you want out of the business- short-term profits, or long term business.  I personally don’t come from a system that ostracizes someone for not participating in the tools business, but encourages their use, whether you get them yourself, or borrow them from someone else.  We don’t follow the old Amway method of business, but rather shed that when we moved online with Quixtar.  A customer base can be build by finding people who like a particular product, and servicing that need.  If you are in a retail oriented LOA, focus on the products that are meant for that venue- Gift albums, Xs syrup, etc.  don’t try to sell single cans of Xs at fairs for $3 a can!  I am sure you have heard the saying that “trying to teach it pig to sing is pointless- it only frustrates you, and it annoys the pig”.  If your LOA business model does not fit you, find one who does, or change things yourself when you build a business.  We all have the choice, it may not happen as fast as our human nature would like, but we need to let 30 year old news about a different business go, and focus on what we have, which is dynamic and growing.  If we don’t like something about the way the business is, WE as individuals have the choice to do something about it.

Anonymous said:
February 19, 2007 8:12 PM | #

  I like the fact that we have an open forum.  I have been reading comments re: tools.  If I may weigh in.  I have not heard anyone mention that tools are a tax deduction if you intend to build for profit.  Also, at least in our organization, tools are optional.  No one is forced to purchase.  We are all private contractors.  We can do as we choose!  However, when it comes to success, follow the guy whose winning behind him in the mine field.  I like the cd's & books, and am more than willing to pay 90-100 dollars a month.  I have not always been able to afford them.  So I didn't have them.  Its all really a choice, right?

Tex said:
February 19, 2007 8:44 PM | #

Gene,

What you say SOUNDS great, but many tool systems tell their brand new IBO's to blindly follow a proven system, that it has been proven to be effective.

What is "conveniently" left out is the fact that the system is very effective at putting big bucks in the form of tool profits in the upline back pockets, which come directly from their downline.

Although the internet is getting better at exposing this unethical activity that has gone on essentially unchanged for more than two decades, much work remains to be done in this area. This site and others have started the ball rolling, however.

Anonymous said:
February 19, 2007 11:17 PM | #

I would have paid $500 a month (or more) for the tools if they worked, but sadly the tools only work to line the pockets of a few IBO leaders.

Let's get real here though. If you strip away the whole tools issue, you still have to fix:

1. Reputation

2. Compensation

3. Prices

For the sake of the several hundred thousand good people who are involved in the bussiness, I hope My Payne fixes it.

Brandon said:
February 20, 2007 10:49 AM | #

I don't know who you are but I do know that if you learned to apply what is taught thru the tools you would have been successful with them. People tend to ask me if the business works and my response is always, (no, the business doesn't work, you have to make it work!) That is the truth. The compensation is way better then whatever your career is I guarantee. The company (Quixtar) has put an additional $93 million dollars out on the table for new platinums in the business and much more money for the new pins. So don't tell me the compensation isn't good. And as far as the reputation goes, Quixtar is a multi-million dollar corporation and they have the highest dun and bradstreet credit rating of any privately owned company because they are 100% debt free. They donate money to many good causes thru out the world and continue to do so today. The leaders of the corporation built the business on concrete not sand, meaning God is first in their business. Also if you would have made it to the platinum level you would have wanted to make some income from the tools system, because last time I checked noone will work for free and when they create these tools they deserve some compensation for it, because I guarantee you that you wouldn't go to work for nothing, am I right? of course I am. The education in the business is far greater then anything out there today and helps you not only in business but also with situations in life. So the next time you want to comment on something that you absolutely have no idea about think before you act.

Beth Dornan's Response:

Dear Brandon:

Your enthusiasm and your passion for this business are inspiring.  But let me help you with a few of the facts.

First, there are no guarantees with any system.  They offer tips and techniques on business building but individual results vary.  Neither the opportunity itself or  any system can guarantee results because it's up to each individual whether they choose to participate in a system and of course, the time and energy they sink into their business.    There are a lot of variables that come into play, but the most important is personal initiative.   It's true that the plan is designed to generate income, especially when there's a strong customer retailing component, and that there's $94 million in incentives available this year.  But again, it's an opportunity, not a guarantee.

Second, Quixtar is a billion dollar company, with IBOs generating more than a billion dollars in sales for four years running.  We're part of the $6 billion Alticor family of companies.

Third, the Dun and Bradstreet reference is incorrect.   A company's rating  fluctuates from time to time and at this point, we do not have that rating.  

According to D&B's own site, it provides business credit reports to help users "determine whether or not to extend credit to a company, and establish credit terms."  I've just asked some of our folks why we link there at all because the site doesn't provide any valuable insights -- unless you're willing to pay for a report.  

Fourth,  the debt free claim has been around for decades.  No enterprise of this size and stature is entirely debt free because of the sheer volume and dollar amounts of business transactions.  Alticor is building a new JW Marriott hotel in downtown Grand Rapids and it isn't a cash on the barrel deal.      A more compelling fact is that the company has never missed a bonus payment -- not since Amway was founded in 1959 and continuing through Quixtar today.

Fifth, the beliefs of the company's founders and founding families are widely known.  But the company specifically does not identify itself with any particular religion or religious belief because we are a business open to all and count people of virtually all religious persuasions among our IBOs.  

Finally, we can't claim, nor would we support a claim that the "education in this business is greater than anything out there today."   You can develop many skills as part of running your own business, ranging from public speaking to time management to selling skills.  Many of these skills benefit other parts of your life and we hear from former IBOs how their experiences in Amway or Quixtar helped them in future endeavors.   You are certainly entitled to your opinion about your learnings and growth through your business.  But we encourage IBOs who are in college to stay in school and pursue their education and their business, because no investment in an education is ever wasted.

Again, you're clearly excited about your business and its potential.  But sharing the right information is important so people can evaluate our business based on the facts and make their own decisions about the merits.

Beth Dornan
Director -- Quixtar Communications

Tex said:
February 20, 2007 11:06 AM | #

Anon,

I wouldn't have paid $500/month if the tools worked unless the upline was honest about how much they were making from that $500. The whole purpose of this business when it started in 1959 was it was a business for those who couldn't afford to start a business. While $500/month is not a lot compared to traditional businesses, this does not give upline the excuse to take advantage of the people they are telling they are helping, by "neglecting" to tell them where most of their profit comes from, namely tools.

If you strip away the tool issue, most of the reputation problem is fixed, the compensation could probably increase because Q wouldn't be settling lawsuits and arbitrations left and right, and prices would be better for the same reason.

In a way, the tool profit issue takes the pressure off the compensation/price issue, but there are many products competitively priced as they are now, and a little bit of retail (which is required to get downline volume bonus anyway) makes your own purchases less expensive. When your group grows just a little beyond this point, the prices you beat can't be beat by anyone. Then, when it grows just a little more, your products are free (downline bonus equals your cost for products). Then, when it grows even more, you are in a pure profit mode with free products. Not a bad deal.    

Bottom line, the tool profit issue is MUCH larger than the others you mentioned, and until it gets fixed, let's not get distracted by these other issues.  

Let's be clear, I am not saying these are not important issues, but an analogy would be the need to finish your meal (compensation, prices) while the ship is sinking (tool profits/reputation).  First things first.

Anonymous said:
February 20, 2007 4:56 PM | #

I pay a lot less than $500/mth on tools, and the tools I buy work. What's more they're cheaper than I could buy elsewhere, for example Ziglar, Covey, Robbins, Nightingale-Conant types of suppliers.

They're cheaper than the competitors. They work for me. Given those two factors I don't care how much anybody profits.

If you don't think they're worth the money, don't buy them. Pretty simple really.

/i

Bob said:
February 21, 2007 12:27 AM | #

Since I became an IBO I've become an avid reader from books purchased as BSM & outside sources. I've noticed that no matter where the books are purchased the message is the same. To become a successful business owner requires a different mindset than that of an employee of someone else, practicing delayed gratification for long term financial stability, goal setting, assests vs liabilities & differentiating between fact & opinion to name just a few. Having no experience or knowledge of this industry when I started, I've found  the BSM an invaluable assest to the success of my business (I am not at pin level that profits from the sale of tools). Education must come from somewhere in order to win at any business. I look at the overall picture as this, the encouragement, mentoring & guidance given by my support team far outweighs what they may be profiting from my purchases of BSM. One must ask what is the value of these tools to your success? If they are of no value, don't buy them. It's a choice, just like being a business owner or an employee.

In order to help me differentiate between the facts & opinions concerning these tool profits I have a question.

Tex, not to single you out, however you appear to have the strongest opinion about the Emeralds & above transparency on income percentages between tool profits & Quixtar incomes. In several posts you said that the IBO leaders should disclose what their BSM profits are giving the perception that it is not known in a team wide basis. In your 18 Feb 07 5:51PM post you said "Your upline emeralds and above probably make MUCH more from the tools (books, tapes/CD's and functions) than they do from their Quixtar volume" My question is this. If you do not know what there profits from BSM are, what basis are you using to substantiate your comment? Fact or Opinion ?

Tex said:
February 21, 2007 12:52 AM | #

Are you going to put adatudes in the Achieve magazine and/or the quixtar site?

 

Editor's Response:

Hi Tex,

The Opportunity Zone was promoted through email and a What's New article on quixtar.com. Now that the Zone is up and conversation is flowing, we will be revisiting ways to promote it. I'm sure there will be more mentions / links from the Quixtar site and inclusion in Achieve is always a possibility, although I don't know at this time whether or not that is planned.

Thanks,

Anna Bryce
Managing Editor -- Opportunity Zone

Anonymous said:
February 21, 2007 2:14 AM | #

There are several reasons why I think the business has stagnated, my business included. I can remember when Amway had a large convention and Expo every year. It was something my wife and I looked forward to. We went, no matter what. My upline did not promote it, but we went anyway. In fact, it got to where my upline Diamond discouraged going to Convention so much, he purposely began to have his summer major function the same weekend. We used to service a large number of customers. We loved doing demos and cost comparisons. My upline discouraged that, too, even from stage at functions. At one point, our upline needed another Silver leg to remained qualified and forced massive volume into our leg that made us Silver Producers and he did it without our consent. But, we knew there were not enough people in the group to sustain the volume. It made many people mad. It totally blew out a 1500 PV leg and several of our frontline. Another leg was severely damaged. I can honestly say that the upline's "system" and way of doing business hurt our business more than helped. Quixtar needs to step up to the plate and again needs to start having large conventions. They also need to have regional product training seminars that are heavily promoted. Many people won't buy a case of protein shakes without knowing what they taste like, but if they taste one at an Expo, I'll bet they start buying it. They also need to promote allegiance to the company, rather than to the upline. It is that way in other MLMs. All functions, except for home "core group" meetings need to be put on by the company. The company needs to say to the Diamonds, "You have one year to shut down your systems or you are out." Then all tools need to be submitted to the company and the company needs to be the "system." The upline could promote the circles they would want (100, 200, or more PV) but all other training would be from the company. It needs to become fun again. Most of us already have jobs (or in my case, another business) that we don't really want to do the rest of our lives. I'm not saying the business should be a big party, but it has to be fun. Quixtar acts like it is afraid of the Diamonds. So some more quit. Big deal. We've already lost countless Diamonds and a few Crowns. They are spewing negative all over the place. Quixtar: get rid of the systems. Now. Get the upline Platinum or sponsor back to helping the new IBO set a realistic goal and help them get their first CUSTOMERS. Help them make money before they spend any on "motivation." If you need a CD every week to stay motivated, you either don't have a goal, or you have the wrong one. It does not take five $600 functions a year and a CD or 2 every week to get 10 to 20 customers that buy $30 or $40 worth of products per month and to find 5 to 10 legs that do the same. The company should be putting on enough regional rallies and Expos that within a month or 2, a new IBO could go to a company-sponsored function and "touch" the company and the products. People would love it. Platinums could have a meeting in their house once a month, show the plan, do some demos, show a cost comparison or two, give out some awards, then break out the XS Drinks and the Food Bars, then sit down and listen, and find out what people really want out of the business and work with them to help them get it. This is how the business is built--one on one or in small home meetings. I am now going back totally to the way we did the business when we first got in, including making it fun again. It feels really good and the results are just a month or so away. The Beatles said it best as to what Quixtar needs to do: Get back to where you once belonged.

Tex said:
February 21, 2007 9:01 AM | #

Anon,

It sounds simple, but the open I went to recently repeated the mantra of "buy our tools, they are made by the experts in this business, they are the tools made just for you and your success".

I purchased over 10,000 tapes and CD's online for under 20 cents ($0.20) each, including shipping. I have also purchased hundreds of books online and at the local library "fire sales" for less than $1 each. These are exchanged at our monthly training sessions for a $20 deposit. In the event materials are lost or otherwise not returned, the IBO gives up at least a portion of their deposit.  

What you do may work for you and me is not being used for the overall business. What will happen if we both go Diamond, but the rest of the business continues to decline? Will Quixtar be viable? I doubt it, there won't be enough volume for the overhead they have for our 2 groups.

There is a bigger picture that must be addressed across the board.

Tex said:
February 21, 2007 10:56 AM | #

Bob: Tex, not to single you out, however you appear to have the strongest opinion about the Emeralds & above transparency on income percentages between tool profits & Quixtar incomes. In several posts you said that the IBO leaders should disclose what their BSM profits are giving the perception that it is not known in a team wide basis. In your 18 Feb 07 5:51PM post you said "Your upline emeralds and above probably make MUCH more from the tools (books, tapes/CD's and functions) than they do from their Quixtar volume" My question is this. If you do not know what there profits from BSM are, what basis are you using to substantiate your comment? Fact or Opinion ?

Tex: I don't mind being "singled out". I base my position on facts. Go to http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2515&start=0 and read it for yourself, in the case of Bruce Anderson. I was the character "Curious" on his site, which is no longer in operation. You can also google keywords, such as Morrison and Amway, TIF and Amway, Ken Stewart and Amway, and get a feel  for how these various lawsuits have all been centered around the tool profit. Go listen to Rich Devos' "Directly Speaking" tapes (google Rich Devos and directly speaking) from 1983, and you will KNOW nothing has changed for over 24 years.

This isn't opinion. It is fact.

Tex said:
February 21, 2007 1:27 PM | #

Although a bit off topic, the story below shows how thankful we all should be to be living in the USA. And Egypt is considered a moderate Middle Eastern country!

Thanks should also go to Quixtar for these blogs, they have given us the opportunity to voice our opinions, especially when we may disagree with each other.

On this "birthday-eve" of George Washington's birthday, let's all thank George for not accepting a kingship position, and instead insisting a better form of government be constructed. Thanks, George.      

Egypt: Trial of blogger expands repressive realm

Karim Amer's trial appears intended as a warning by the authorities to other bloggers who dare criticize the government or use their blogs to spread information considered harmful to Egypt’s reputation

Monday, February 12, 2007

By Spero News  

Amnesty International is calling for the immediate and unconditional release of Karim Amer, the first Egyptian blogger to be tried for writing blogs criticizing Egypt's al-Azhar religious authorities, President Husni Mubarak and Islam.

Karim Amer, a former al-Azhar University student and blogger, is facing up to 10 years in prison for his writings. Charges against him include "spreading information disruptive of public order and damaging to the country’s reputation", "incitement to hate Islam" and "defaming the President of the Republic".

"Karim Amer's trial appears intended as a warning by the authorities to other bloggers who dare criticize the government or use their blogs to spread information considered harmful to Egypt’s reputation," said Malcolm Smart, Director of the Middle East and North Africa Programme. "This is particularly worrying as bloggers have increasingly been posting information about human rights abuses in Egypt, including torture and police violence against peaceful protesters."

The trial opened on 18 January 2007 before Maharram Bek Court in Alexandria. Karim Amer was charged under Articles 102, 176 and 179 of Egypt’s Penal Code. Amnesty International has been urging the Egyptian authorities to review or abolish this and other legislation that, in violation of international standards, stipulates prison sentences for the mere exercise of the rights of freedom of expression, thought, conscience and religion.

"Amnesty International considers Karim Amer to be a prisoner of conscience who is being prosecuted on account of the peaceful expression of his views about Islam and the al-Azhar religious authorities. We are calling for his immediate and unconditional release."

Background

Karim Amer was first detained by the Egyptian authorities for 12 days in October 2005 because of his writings on his blog (karam903.blogspot.com) about Islam and the sectarian riots which took place in the same month in Alexandria's Maharram Bek district. These riots followed reports that the video of a play believed to be anti-Islam was being screened in a Coptic church in the district.

After he was charged and released, disciplinary measures were taken against him and he was dismissed from al-Azhar University in March 2006. The university's disciplinary board found him guilty of blaspheming Islam.

He was summoned to appear before the office of the Public Prosecutor in Maharram Bek district of the city of Alexandria on 7 November 2006 following a complaint made against him by al-Azhar University. The Public Prosecutor ordered his detention for four days on 7 November, which was later extended for a further 15 days, to allow further time for investigation. He has remained in detention since then following a series of extensions. While in detention, he was kept in solitary confinement and in incommunicado detention and was only allowed visits by his relatives in recent weeks.

Ship F said:
February 21, 2007 3:16 PM | #

Beth Dornan's response and CORRECTIONS to Brandon on Feb 21 shows how misguided and misinformed system people are. Especially the new IBO's!

New IBO's don't  know how many platinums and above have quit the business because of systems. They want so bad to have the lifestyle that is displayed from stage they'll believe anything. What they don't know is that most of that lifestyle is purchased from tool profits.

This is a great example as to why Quixtar has to be the one putting out the toolsand meetings so we are all on the same page and the info is pure and truly helpful for building the buisness.  

Getting back to promoting the opulent lifestyle as mentioned above. Yes, there can be good money in this business, but many system leaders have achieved Emerald or higher by loading up legs as  mentioned above by Ano (Feb 21). This goes on all the time. As Ano also mentioned, when a buisness is built this way it won't last. So, to continue to look successfull the tool leader use tool  profits to maintain the lifestyle to prove that the system is working when in fact the real Quixtar business isn't big enough to support that lifestyle.  

Who wouldn't buy the tools. You can have this lifestyle if you just follow the system....OH REALLY. I don't read the "Achieve" anymore because I know for a fact that many of the IBO's showcased in this magazine use the same method. It's phoney! And so are the system operations.

Quixtar will never get out of this slump until they take over the tool support system totally!

Tool users don't fret, we'll have support and it will be ten times more useful when it comes from Quixtar. This business should be one of everyone helping everyone no matter what LOS you're in. I know someone in a competitive MLM and that's what they are doing. They're eating our lunch in the US.

Tex said:
February 21, 2007 10:21 PM | #

Go Skip, GO! I agree with 99% of what you say, keep saying it.

I don't think Q has to take over the tool system, as long as tool profits are disclosed.

I believe in free enterprise (but not secret profit enterprise), and believe the tools will find their proper pricing when tool profit information is required to be disclosed to every prospect and IBO.

However, it could be the current tool providers will not see a reduced tool profit is worth the effort, and Q needs to be ready to step in to fill the gap in this case.

Tex said:
February 22, 2007 8:24 AM | #

Skip,

I originally missed Brandon's post. above. What is sad is how many thousands of IBO's are taught exactly the misinformation he stated, in major functions, opens, seminars, training sessions, and while upline shows the plan and does the follow through for them.

It is refreshing to see Beth inform him of the real facts, but it is also quite likely Brandon showed her response or told her response to his upline, who scoffed at the response with something to the effect of, "What did we tell you, Quixtar is our supplier, nothing more. Trust your upline for everything else. Now buy some more tools, looks like Beth put some "negative" in you that needs to be cleaned up" (recall this is where the "big bucks" are made, not the Q products). Also, don't expect Brandon to ever post here again. He was taught that, too.

How many other IBO's are being told the same thing right now? Countless.

I am not saying Beth did the wrong thing by correcting him, but Quixtar needs to know the tactics that are used to not only limit their effectiveness, but actually promote the consumption of more tools profitable to the upline. It's amazing!

Skip F said:
February 22, 2007 11:05 AM | #

Tex, you answered your own question. No matter what Q tries to do, the systems will continue on as they always have. Also, where can IBO's turn to when they decide they have had enough of the systems? You continue to say that we need the systems, if only they would clean up their act. Ain't gonna happen!  Brandon is a new IBO and look how  misquided he already is as a beginner! The systems such as WWDB and others are at this time still doing the same old garbage! The info they put out is inacurate and damaging to us all.

Here is something else to consider. What about people that are sponsored into a LOS who's uplines are either retired, died or just plain are not the leader type. They have no support if Q doesn't supply the tools and meetings. These IBO's are at a huge disadvantage when trying to compete with the systems that have had years to put things together. Having Q provide everthing for everyone creates a level playing field that we can trust to be both legal and ethical.

You and I both know that the only LONG TERM solution to this whole issue if for Q to have the b---s to just do it.

Maybe Q will have to put another bonus in place for the Emeralds and above to compensate them for the lost tool profits.  This could be a really good move for Q. All the tool profit people would have to have a real bsuiness to qualify. The other possitive to this  is that in time, prospects won't be as negative as they are  now and the business will be a little easier to build!

Q needs to step up and do the right thing right now before we get  to a point where it will be impossible to turn things around!

Anonymous said:
February 22, 2007 11:31 AM | #

Quixtar Team,

You guys are doing a phenomenal work of creating every avenues of IBOs success. Thank You soooooo much!!

Because of new publications, brochures, DVD, media publications, sales/promotions our business revenues have gone up along with profits. Its one of the exiting time where an excellent service is provided to clients & IBOs by Q* staff. Your contribution has helped us & so many IBOs & Clients in our Team to get educated about the products.

We're part of BWW Team from San Jose, CA.

Tex said:
February 22, 2007 12:16 PM | #

Skip,

I was trying to point out the difficulty of keeping the current tool owners/profiteers involved. It is difficult to expect these folks to suddenly become "honest brokers" AND take a large income hit. But, it is the honest thing for the tool owners to do.

As for the "older" systems, it seems there are plenty of downline who are more than happy to take over the tool profits, but your point is at least as valid as the systems that are "healthy", in that if the profits were reduced, would there be enough incentive for the upline to continue to run them?

Q has an important decision to make, and the timing and manner of that decision are both important.

The timing is important, because Q will probably lose some volume short term, and lose more if done too soon or too late.

The manner is important, because the facts must be communicated to as many IBO's as possible, via e-mail, the quixtar.com site, the Achieve magazine, perhaps letters, and as many other methods as possible, as well as being prepared to support the IBO's with tools in the likely event many of the higher pins quit.

I think it is important to give the tool companies the opportunity to do things right and honest, it takes away most of their basis to say Q is being unreasonable.

As far as extra bonuses, I doubt Q could afford to replace what they have been making, and I would rather get this money to all IBO's in the form of lower prices and/or better PV/BV, rather than reward those who took advantage of so many for so long. We simply don't need individuals who are not willing to come clean, and stand a better chance at long term success without them, in my opinion.

Mike said:
February 22, 2007 2:31 PM | #

Why has complaining become so accepted in the world today? So many people think it is their job to point out the flaws in what others are doing, maybe it gives a sense of security to justify ones own lack of performance by trying to place blame on others.

Tools, tools, tools. People that YOU bring to the Quixtar table be it an IBO or customer will have YOU as their point of reference. YOU are the example and leader for YOUR organization...there is no tool problem in YOUR business if YOU don’t participate. Stop whining and complaining and go add 100,000 new people to the Quixtar community.

Focus on "your" business, get out of the muddy water and blaze a new trail. Before you come up with another great excuse just look in the mirror, suck it up and go out and share the Quixtar opportunity.

Your success or failure is completely up to you.

Mike.

Anonymous said:
February 22, 2007 3:07 PM | #

I am going to say one last thing about the tools and tool profits, then (hopefully) I'm not going to say anymore, because it seems like we're just beating a dead horse. It's not just the tools and the tool systems that are giving Quixtar a horrible reputation. It is the way they are run. My upline used to say, "In this line of sponsorship, Emeralds make $X00,000.00 but he would never say why. I always thought it was because they emphasized depth so much. It was because of the tools. Since he left out information, to me that is the same as lying.

Quixtar is going to have to take over the tool systems NOW for one main reason: If they don't, the FTC is going to step in and force them to either take it over or shut it down completely. I know from experience, as well as Alticor itself also knows, it is a bad day when someone knocks on your door and says, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." Believe me, they are not here to "help."

Under the system of Q running the tools, every IBO would submit their tools they would want to be approved. No PV would be paid on them, perhaps BV, like it was in the 80's for a short time. Then the upline leaders could encourage their downline and new IBOs to purchase only those tools that worked best with their style of building the business. Access Business Group would do all the printing of brochures and handouts, and all manufacturing/reproducing of DVDs at a cost that would cover their costs, but with no residuals paid to whoever submitted them. Quixtar would own the copywrite. When I submitted my Presentation Manual, Quixtar owned the copywrite and I used it under license for a year. I had no problem with that. As far as major functions, Diamonds would submit a list of speakers and per diem payments, where and when the function would be held, an approximation of miscellaneous costs, and a figure. Quixtar would then evaluate the figure to see if it is reasonable or exorbitant. Ticket prices would be set to cover the costs, plus a small amount for unforseen cost overruns, then a Quixtar rep would be there with the Diamond when all the contracts are signed with the hosting hotel or convention center. The Diamond would make NOTHING from the function.

Anyone that thinks the above is out of line, needs to get a franchise. My wife used to be manager of a Wendy's franchise. Anyone that thinks for two seconds that a Wendy's franchise holder (or even a manager) is an "independent business owner" is nuts. In my wife's case, she had to do EVERYTHING EXACTLY the way Wendy's said it had to be done. Anything less and she would have been out the door. The Diamonds that are making large profits from the tool systems are abusing the system, plain and simple, and need to be kicked out.

As far as the tools profits goes, there is so much money in this business if it is built properly (lots of width for profitability, driving legs deep for added security (don't get me wrong: nothing is "secure"), having a large retail business for additional profitability (and for "do as I do, not just do as I say") and 100% loyalty to buying your own products, both from the core line and from the Partner Stores. Anyone who says they cannot live on an Emerald or Diamond income is a liar. My wife and I could live extremely well at the Q-12 Platinum level.

Something else that could be done if the Diamonds really have a problem with a full array of tools from all lines of sponsorship; have links to the tools from each LOS that submitted their own tools, just like links to individual Partner Stores. If you are in a certain LOS, you could only get tools from your upline's link. BUT (very important), they would still be ordered through Quixtar. I don't know how that would work, adding it to your cart from a link, but I think the techies could figure it out.

Anyway, the tool systems HAVE to be taken over by Quixtar before it's too late. If the FTC steps in and decides, NOBODY is going to like how it will turn out. The government does not understand our business, nor do they want to try. Just ask any IBO from Wisconsin, or even Iowa.

The Diamonds that don't like it can leave. It's as simple as that.

Now, with all that said, I sincerely hope the Quixtar and Alticor executives will do the above and make it work, so we can put this tool thing to bed once and for all and start this Q train on the road to growth and a good reputation once again.

Now, I have to leave so I can generate some much needed PV.

Tex said:
February 22, 2007 5:06 PM | #

Mike,

You are completely ignoring the strong and frequent mantra that the tool systems should be blindly followed.

This guidance is given to prospects and IBO's, most of whom have never owned their own business, and this is hammered home as well.

Also, many IBO's have pre-existing relationships with their sponsors, so a false sense of trust is also taken advantage of.

No amount of technical rules will overcome these basic fundamental issues.  

Bob said:
February 22, 2007 10:17 PM | #

Mike,

Good message. I'm all for 100,00 new IBO's. Not there YET, however I'm out there making it happen. The new Consumer Power Business Plan DVD is an awesome tool. Works every time. Let's keep forging forward & thinking positive. We tend to move in the direction of our strongest most dominant thoughts. Awesome, just heard that of my latest standing order CD.

Skip F said:
February 23, 2007 12:27 AM | #

Way to go BWW team. Isn't it great that Q really can deliver. Who needs a system! With praise like that, Q will realize they are on to something...Keep up the good work!

Tex said:
February 23, 2007 10:32 AM | #

Bob,

What is the "new Consumer Power Business Plan DVD"?

Is it from Q or your line of sponsorship?

How much does it cost?

Tex said:
February 23, 2007 11:53 AM | #

Anonymous said: February 22, 2007 11:31 AM | #

Quixtar Team, Because of new publications, brochures, DVD, media publications, sales/promotions our business revenues have gone up along with profits. Its one of the exiting time where an excellent service is provided to clients & IBOs by Q* staff.

Tex said: Freudian slip? I think you meant "exciting", above. :-)

Larry said:
February 23, 2007 2:19 PM | #

I am so tired of reading all this junk about the tools. WWDB is very fair and up front about it. We pay $2.25 for a CD or DVD that comes out and if you don't want them it's no big deal. I have several in my downline that share them. That's fine with me. I get a lot out of them and enjoy them.

Please, stop this and put the energy into your business. I'm new to Q and I'm making good money already BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEMS that WWDB has in place. They make my business better every day.

If you don't like this stuff, go wash cars for a living. But don't sit here and make us all put up with your negative talk. It helps you feel better, but it makes others not come to these pages to listen to the same old stuff on every blog. Perhaps they should just start a blog for the negative people to go to so the rest of us can come here and get good information from each other and from Q. They are trying to help us and it isn't going to work if the blogs are dominated - as they are now by Tex and others - who just want to say the same thing on every blog. I'm personally so tired of it I don't come back every day to learn. And like any stupid soap opera, I can leave these for a couple days and come back and it's still the same old story line going.

I do not think this is what they had in mind when they started these blogs. Let's let them do what they intened them to do or they may take them off if this is all they are going to be. I would hate to lose this TOOL that Q has offered for free to us.

Larry

Tex said:
February 23, 2007 2:54 PM | #

Larry said: I am so tired of reading all this junk about the tools. WWDB is very fair and up front about it. We pay $2.25 for a CD or DVD that comes out and if you don't want them it's no big deal. I have several in my downline that share them. That's fine with me. I get a lot out of them and enjoy them.

Tex said: This isn't pleasant, but it is necessary. How much does your use of the WWDB site cost?

Larry said: Please, stop this and put the energy into your business. I'm new to Q and I'm making good money already BECAUSE OF THE SYSTEMS that WWDB has in place. They make my business better every day.

Tex said: Some of us  are doing both. However, "this" won't stop until the tool profits are transparent.

Larry said: If you don't like this stuff, go wash cars for a living. But don't sit here and make us all put up with your negative talk. It helps you feel better, but it makes others not come to these pages to listen to the same old stuff on every blog. Perhaps they should just start a blog for the negative people to go to so the rest of us can come here and get good information from each other and from Q. They are trying to help us and it isn't going to work if the blogs are dominated - as they are now by Tex and others - who just want to say the same thing on every blog. I'm personally so tired of it I don't come back every day to learn. And like any stupid soap opera, I can leave these for a couple days and come back and it's still the same old story line going.

Tex said: I don't like this, and I am doing my part to fix it. Since when are facts "negative talk"? I won't "feel better" until the tool profit is transparent. I, and hundreds of thousands of others,  are personally tired of the excessive tool profits.

Larry said: I do not think this is what they had in mind when they started these blogs. Let's let them do what they intened them to do or they may take them off if this is all they are going to be. I would hate to lose this TOOL that Q has offered for free to us.

Tex said: Q started this blog to counter the other, popular blogs to ensure other input is heard. We, as IBO's, are partners in that effort.

There will be unpleasant issues discussed, but that is necessary to fix problems.

This is not a "free tool", it is a means of communicating between the field and the corporation.

If these sites go away, then the other blogs take over, with even more ammo than they had previously.

So far, the higher pin silence on this and other Q related blogs has been deafening.

That should tell you something, and it's NOT that they are too busy building their businesses, Larry.

TD said:
February 23, 2007 6:30 PM | #

Larry said: "I am so tired of reading all this junk about the tools. WWDB is very fair and up front about it. We pay $2.25 for a CD or DVD that comes out and if you don't want them it's no big deal. I have several in my downline that share them. That's fine with me. I get a lot out of them and enjoy them."

Unless this has changed, there is a $50 monthly fee required to get CD's at this price. Otherwise, CD's are still $7.00 ea. If you are on the new "Premier Membership" plan, the cost for standing order is actually $63.50 ($50+2.25 per CD) instead of $42.00 (for 6 CD's per mo.). You would have to buy 4 extra CD's a month for this to be a better deal.

I think that the tools biz needs to be done away with completely. Lets get back to the Platinum training his/her downline and stop wasting time and money on CD's, DVD's and Functions. Local team meetings w/ the Platinum and Regional, corporate run conventions once a year for pin recognition, corporate news, etc.

Tex said:
February 24, 2007 12:20 AM | #

TD,

Thanks for the site cost, that is what I had heard previously.

I was looking for Larry to confirm the monthly site cost, but would not have been surprised if he never answered the question.

I used to pay $7 for a CD, and less than $10 for site access.

I seriously doubt Larry's site does more than $40/month of worth than my upline's.

This is a moving shell game.

It is not transparency.

The game is over.

Chuck said:
February 25, 2007 8:51 PM | #

One quick point (hopefully!).

With today's technology you can easily put at least twenty-five hours of material in mp3 format on one CD.  If the primary business we are in is the Q/A business, and if our uplines are paid the differential between our group volumes and their group volumes (which they are) for bringing us into the business and training us (a requirement of the business code of ethics), then why are we paying $7 for one CD with one training talk on it in light of today's technologies?  If the real business we are building is the Q/A business you would think the uplines would be doing cartwheels down the street excited that today's technologies allow them to get so much training material to their business downlines at such a low cost to those downlines.  But have the benefits of today's technologies been brought into play by the systems?  No, in fact, the cost of tools continues to rise while these new technologies are used to raise their system profits.

Today it is pay us (the systems) a generous stipend for training materials so you (the IBOs) can build businesses that we (the system pins) can earn another override on.  Smacks of a tremendous conflict of interest to me, one that has no checks and balances that protect the up and coming IBO.

Someday a leader will emerge in Q/A who will put all the training talks he believes a new IBO needs to really get his business on a strong footing on one mp3 CD for $10.  This leader will do this because he (or she) believes that his primary business is the Q/A business and his downlines need to have access to the most current training material at the lowest cost possible if they are going to have the best chance possible to build their businesses, and their new IBOs' businesses, to the levels of success they desire.  He will place greater emphasis on getting the information out than on what he earns on that information simply because he sees his primary business as being the Q/A business and not his tool business.

Chuck

Tex said:
February 26, 2007 12:05 PM | #

Chuck,

You nailed it again.

Technology has allowed us the opportunity to communicate information virtually for free.

Think of the billions of people who can see our messages right now (if they knew about this site), and it cost us NOTHING extra, except our existing internet access that is already being used to order products, surf the internet, play games, read the news, etc.  

To backtrack a bit, when Gutenberg invented the printing press, the "establishment" revolted, because they were upset that they would lose control (power and money), as Gutenberg published the Bible not only in great quantities, but also in the local languages instead of Latin, known only by a select few individuals.

When folks read the words for themselves, they realized they had "been had" by the religious/political dynasties, which started the Christian Reformation.

Interesting coincidence, who started the Reformed Church? The Dutch. Who is Dutch? How about Devos and Van Andel, and many others who settled in the southwest Michigan area?

In fact, I would be willing to bet many Quixtar employees are either members of the RCA (Reformed Church in America, as I am) or the CRC (Christian Reformed Church).

Also, the first Christian church services in America were Dutch Reformed services, but because they insisted only Dutch language was to be used (until relatively recently), the church has not grown as rapidly as others did over the past few centuries.

I guess you could say they had a lack of ability to communicate, or lack of transparency, that hurt their growth. There is still a saying that is used less and less, but is still used, that sums it up, "If you're not Dutch, you're not much".

The Dutch were also also in charge of South Africa for a long time, remember apartheid?

I am not "dissing" the Dutch, any group of folks has shown themselves capable of elitism and racism, but there are interesting parallels between the Amway/Quixtar business and the Dutch historically, I doubt they are mere coincidences.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. - George Santayana, philosopher

I also connect with the words of Rodney King, "Why can't we all just get along?"

How's that for a non-tool post?

Chuck said:
February 26, 2007 1:53 PM | #

Tex,

Your answer related to the Dutch was a bit simplistic  and might have been better served if posted on a theological blog site than here, as I think it went a bit too far and most people here cannot participate in that discussion.  I am not Dutch, I don't live in southern Michigan, but I am strongly Reformed theologically.  However, that has no bearing on the issue we are discussing that I can see or that I have experienced.  My point was simply that I would like to see advances in technology and media put to use to increase the level and availability of training provided in the business while decreasing the cost associated with that training -- rather than always being treated as another profit center.  

I would be thrilled to be able to access business training from leaders throughout the business, even those outside my own LOS, at reasonable cost.  I will refer you back to my initial post at the start of this blog thread regarding Roger Staubach's thoughts on sharing trust internally and information as well.  I really believe he has hit the nail on the head with his comments and I hope Q/A will soon see the issue the same way that Roger does.

Chuck

ibofightback said:
February 26, 2007 2:45 PM | #

RE "Anonymous  said: February 22, 2007 3:07 PM", much of what you are suggesting is very similar to what is happening with Quixtar Accreditation. I suggest you check it out - www.quixtaraccreditation.com.

Tex said:
February 26, 2007 3:55 PM | #

Chuck,

Of course it was simplistic, I was trying to keep it as short as possible. I was making the tie to being open and transparent, and I saw a cultural influence, and one that can be applied to many cultures. That's all.

However, I think we can learn from history and experience, just like we can learn from others' wisdom, such as Roger Staubach's.

I agree with your points on the tools, and choose to focus on where we agree much more than where we may disagree.

In addition, there is another side to the tool costs, and that is the tool profits.

This is where the transparency should be focused, and the costs will take care of themselves, in my opinion.

Having an option with Q for tools will also be beneficial, as choice is the stuff free enterprise is made of, and will give IBO's a price comparison as well. Perhaps upline tools will be more helpful, give more value, and deserved to be priced higher.  Competition breeds excellence.

Piet said:
February 27, 2007 11:29 AM | #

Tex Said:The Dutch were also also in charge of South Africa for a long time, remember apartheid?

Just for the record, segregation as a policy was originally introduced by the British during their first occupation of what was then the Cape of Good Hope.

I think your facts about the complete, (not simplistic) picture regarding the tools business is probably as accurate.

BTW, in our market Amway provides a "leave behind" brochure, showing the average income of different pin levels, which obviously exclude tool income. And at the Diamond level it will definitely sustain a very lavish lifestyle. I have also seen Q provide the same information in their website, and once again, I do not see how a diamond would starve on that income.

Tex said:
February 27, 2007 3:37 PM | #

Just for the record, I believe the tool systems started out as a real tool, to assist IBO's with information/motivation. It was only later they became a profit center, when it was realized how much money could be made over and above the Amway income.

When you get facts that counter my tool profit argument, I will be glad to review them.

BTW, did you realize many, if not most, Emeralds, Diamonds, etc., no longer qualify at their pin level? If they did, it would be quite likely they would be Founders Emeralds, Diamonds, etc.

So the incomes you see are not being made by many wearing the pins, and the difference (and then some) is made up in the form of tool profits. Believe me, they don't starve.

Eric said:
February 27, 2007 4:11 PM | #

I also subscribe to WWDB Premier Membership and feel that I am definitely getting value as I see it as much more then just the price of a CD which by itself probably makes it a good deal.  Since they started this concept they have added multiple personal websites which has given me the ability to have both a retailing and recruiting website.  They continue to enhance a product called e-office that greatly simplifies my day to day administration just to name two of the benefits. WWDB is obviously moving material to our online web training, which we can now freely download as much as we want, that they used to offer for sale. As to online, while the costs are reduced, it is not free.  I, for one, will gladly pay a monthly fee to avoid all the advertising that occurs across the web and people are being paid to develop online assets.

While I do know exactly what my upline receives from my Premier Membership that was never a deciding factor.  What they earn from the sytem is no more a concern then what the DeVos' and VanAndels' make from my Quixtar volume.  I just need to know if what I am paying is matched or exceeded by the value and I am perfectly capable of assessing that.

Finally, as to average income statements, who gets involved in a business to achieve the average? I get paid the average for my job classification.  I think it should be more but it is what the company has decided they will pay for my job.  Someone else will decide if my performance warrants a higher classification.  In a business all I want to know is the maximum potential and I want to know what needs to be done to attain it.  I decide how many hours I am willing to invest.  I decide how much money I am willing to invest.  I decide if the value is worth those investments.  I may even decide to change my mind and no longer make those investments but in all cases I decide.  Mu upline has been totally candid and transparent when ever I have asked for advice but while there is always recommendations the central theme of that advice is I decide.  That is why people get in business, not averages that measure the productive and nonproductive alike.

Tex said:
March 1, 2007 8:24 AM | #

If you feel you are getting the value for tools, and are not concerned how much money is made, why not be as transparent about tool profit as we are with Q profit when showing the plan?

Why is Q profit shown, but not tool profit?  

I have heard some say this is not allowed by the Q rules, but my discussions with Q rules folks show this discussion IS allowed.

How about starting a thread on the rules, and have the rules department dialog over this and other rules questions?

There are many rules that are misunderstood and could be explained, such as the retail rules, 70% rule, etc.

This would probably reduce the number of phone calls and clarify the rules for all IBO's when a question is answered.

Piet said:
March 1, 2007 8:26 AM | #

The first meeting I went to, my friend and I immediately calculated what the income, for somebody, was from this meeting. And we didn't enjoy that meeting. Because we sat at the back, and couldn't see, couldn't hear.

But I went again, and sat where I could hear, and could see, and with my team members (up and down) have about 100 people. My friend hasn't gone again. And he hasn't done anything since either.

Do I say that only people that go to meetings can build the business? No. Do I imply that everybody that goes to meetings will build a business? No.

But what I do believe, is that being part of a team, attending training and listening and reading significantly increases your likelihood of achieving success.

This also doesn't mean that I suggest you bankrupt yourself on tools and functions. It also doesn't mean that every support system is created equal, some are incredibly good, others are incredibly bad, most somewhere in between.

Be mature, own your business, apply your mind - to all aspects- and lets hope you see enormous success!!

Tex said:
March 1, 2007 11:46 AM | #

How much did you calculate?

I am all for being mature, but you must understand how "the system" is beaten into IBO's in many lines of sponsorship as "the ticket to success, period".

And it is, look at how much money is made via the system!

Piet said:
March 1, 2007 4:59 PM | #

Tex said: How much did you calculate?

The point is not how much we calculated, the point is that we calculated.

That was two years ago, now there are three to four times as many people at similar gatherings.

What is strange to me, is that using the exact same systems that are available in USA, with access to the exact same internet, in the rest of the world the business (Alticor) is expanding hand over fist. If it wasn't for regulatory problems in China, Alticor's turnover would probably have been a lot more than the USD6.3bn it turned out to be.

The USA is now 1/6th of the turnover of Alticor, and third in the list of countries after China and Japan!!

I think there is something else at work here, not tools, tools tools. Have a look at information on the internet other than the same old stories that are reprinted ad infinitum on the web, e.g Quixtar Wiki. At least on that site, they give you both sides of the story, other than amquix.info and those kinds of sites.

Tex said:
March 2, 2007 10:37 AM | #

You missed the point. The whole tools, tools, tools, discussion is not over the benefit of using tools, it is the fact the tools are the tail, A/Q is the dog, and the tail is wagging the dog.

Not knowing how much profit you calculated at the open is THE point. Now that it is 3-4 times larger, the profit has probably gone up 8-10 times or more, and you don't seem to mind. Poor choice, in my opinion.

The tool issue appears to be most severe in the US because:

1. The business as been here longest, giving rise to these tool profit stories, along with other true and false "legends",

2. There is more disposable income in the US to take advantage of folks via the tool profit than many other countries, although you can find similar complaints in countries that have more disposable income, such as England and Australia,

3. The internet has more information in English than other languages, and the tool profit facts are more commonly found on the internet in the English language (as far as I know, as I must admit I don't know any foreign languages), and

4. There have been more tool profit lawsuits here, we are a very litigious society in the US.

I think it is a "blessing in disguise" that the US now makes up a lower percentage of the overall volume, perhaps Q can be successful taking the necessary action now that may have resulted in their own demise in 1983.

Perhaps it is all a coincidence, but I find it interesting the Arena in Orlando, Florida was recently renamed the Amway Arena (not Quixtar), and both athletes that sponsor Nutilite are foreigners (China and Jamaica), as well as the Satinique (Scottish) and iCook (Australia). An exception is Artistry sponsor Jennie Mai, but even she is more of an international personality. I think all of the above is healthy for the business, by the way.

Piet said:
March 3, 2007 11:11 AM | #

Tex said:There have been more tool profit lawsuits here, we are a very litigious society in the US.

Piet says: Aha!!

The profit is not the issue, the issue is whether the IBO can afford it. Even if the upline sells the tools at a loss, if the IBO buys more than he can afford, he will be just as deep in the doo-doo.

Eric said:
March 3, 2007 4:50 PM | #

Tex, Piet didn't miss the point.  He hit the mark.  Travel the world and you will find people that are just as intelligent as we are and many are much more informed.  There is only an easy button on a Staples add.  There are multiple issues that any 50 year old business faces even though you have decided there is one and are determined to inject it in every conversation. You've made your point multiple times.  Is this going to be your only contibution? Almost forgot, we have 90% of the attorneys in the world. Our conressman and Senators are heavily wighted to that profession.  Think there might be a connection?  That ain't going to voluntarily starve.

Tex said:
March 3, 2007 9:22 PM | #

Piet,

Aha!! The profit is the issue, as the markup on tools is many 100's of percent. For example, a CD cost about $1 to produce, and are sold for $7. A web site costs virtually nothing to set up and maintain, when you consider the hundreds and thousands of IBO's using the sites. The functions cost several times less than what the IBO's pay to attend.

I doubt most IBO's could buy enough to consume more than they could afford unless they were buying enough CD's to listen to a new CD 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Also, I think you are misunderstanding the nature of the tool lawsuits. Most of them are higher pin IBO's (Emerald and above) who were benefitting from the tools to the extent they were making several more times via tools than their A/Q income, became dependent on this income to maintain their lifestyle, then were cut out of deal for one reason or another. So they went the legal route and each one exposed nature and magnitude of the tool profits a little more, and are very consistent with the others, further reinforcing the practice of high tool profits is more common than the exception to the rule.  

In fact, if you want to know whether your upline is making a lot via tools, ask them. Their response will be very illuminating to you, whether they actually answer the question or not.

If you don't want to ask them or don't get a direct answer to the direct question, look at the tool prices and compare them to other lines of sponsorship. Unless the production costs are significantly different, then it follows the profit is similar, and you have your answer.    

Eric said:
March 4, 2007 2:48 PM | #

If profit was THE issue when we purchase something then we should require disclosure from the owners of Alticor regarding their profit when we purchase XS or SA-8.  Even more, what are the bonuses paid to Quixtar employees? They certainly are based upon sales.  

WalMart, Kohls, Maceys disclose profits because people invest in those companys and they need to know if the returns justify an investment. As a consumer I need transparency only as to the seller's status.  Are they profit on non-profit? Then the only remaining issue is does the value of what I purchase meet or exceed what I paid. That applies to Quixtar, Maceys, and who ever wants to sell me BSMs.

Piet said:
March 5, 2007 2:28 AM | #

Why is the level of profit on a tool a problem?

What is more important is the profit you make using a tool.

Tex said:
March 5, 2007 10:13 AM | #

We talk about these things when showing the plan, that a $30 cost to manufacture a product costs about $100 at retail. We also have comparisons of the products in the marketplace, so this argument misses the mark. Why not just come clean and disclose how huge the tool profits are? Why do you try to deflect a very fundamental and basic question? Something to hide?

Piet,

Because it:

1. Makes a lot of IBO's broke,

2. Gives A/Q a bad reputation, and

3. Provides very unhealthy incentives for the higher pins, as evidenced by the numerous lawsuits, and

4. The status quo is a living lie, the higher pins make much more money on your ticket prices, CD's, etc., than A/Q, and are not being honest about this with their so-called "business partners" and "teammates".

Do you need any more reasons?

Of course the profit you make from using the tool is important, but this should not result in the vast majority of profit for higher pins coming from the tools themselves. Have you listened to "Directly Speaking"?   Do you enjoy being lied to by your upline, while they take you and many other IBO's to the cleaners?    

Eric said:
March 5, 2007 2:52 PM | #

Tex,

You just revealed something, intentionally or unintentionally.  Logic through civil discourse is not going to make any difference with you.  Piet is obviously much more patient then I.  If you were to call a freind of mine a liar, which my upline is, I certainly wouldn't be civil. I have questioned and challenged my upline and have always got candid answers.  While your broad paint brush is bad enough your willingness to assume that Piet's upline specifically are liars reveals your true intent and destroys any credibility you might have with resonable people who are willing discuss items with open minded people.  

Tex said:
March 5, 2007 6:30 PM | #

Eric,

I have no idea what you are talking about. All I did was identify facts, and presented very logical and civil questions.

If you can't call a spade a spade, that is not my problem. I have no interest in defending the indefensible. The same problem has occurred for at least 24 years, how much longer do you want to wait before the internet blogs eat this business alive?

I will allow Piet to answer for his upline.

How much does your upline Platinum, Emerald, Diamond, etc., make on tools? This includes tapes/CD's, books, and all functions. How's that for a logical and civil question? What basic business model does your upline operate under? Isn't this basic knowledge that EVERY IBO should know regarding their upline?

Then, you should reconsider whether your upline is a friend or a liar? Without the tool profit facts, he is a "friend".

ibofightback said:
March 6, 2007 12:05 AM | #

Tex, you called Piet's upline liars. You have done the same numerous times to my upline in our various discussions around the internet.

My upline is also my friend. He profits from my Amway purchases, he profits from my tool purchases. Good for him. I get value for money, that's all that concerns me.

Tex, if CDs cost $1 to produce, then why are music CDs for sale for $10+?

CDs don't cost $1 to produce. They cost $1 to duplicate. Production and distribution expenses, and, yes, profit, are all added on top of that.

Eric said:
March 6, 2007 11:32 AM | #

Tex,

Do you realize how you appear when you write "I have no idea what you are talking about?"  You call someone you have never met a liar and then justify it by saying "All I did was identify facts".  There are no facts, just rude accusations.  Perhaps the blogs you refer to are being driven by people as biased as you have identified yourself to be.

If I am sold a car, a tool to get me to work, a lawnmower, a tool to cut my lawn, XX, a tool for better health, I don't need to know their margins.  I need to know I am getting value and I need to know that the purveyor is a non-profit or for profit. That is what wasn't done 24 years ago and that is old news.

Tex said:
March 6, 2007 2:46 PM | #

Tex, if CDs cost $1 to produce, then why are music CDs for sale for $10+? ------------------------------------------ To make money, and paying more than $10 is not uncommon. But this is a very poor analogy, for the following reasons:

1. How many music CD's do you, or any average person, buy every week? Answer: Very few.

2. Is the advertised intent of music CD's to help you make money on A/Q (while really making MUCH more on the CD), or for entertainment? Answer: No.

3. How many people even buy music CD's anymore? They buy music online and download it to their ipods. Answer: See above.

I realize the benefit of handing someone a physical item, it is a personal touch, and you have the opportunity to talk with them again to pick it up. But that does not explain the CD prices.

CDs don't cost $1 to produce. They cost $1 to duplicate. Production and distribution expenses, and, yes, profit, are all added on top of that. --------------------------------------------- When you make thousands and tens of thousands of each CD, the cost to produce and distrubute (we pay for the mailing of our system CD's, by the way) is probably not a significant cost, on a per CD basis. If it is, let's see the numbers and prove me wrong.

As you can see, I am interested in the facts, which you have proven you are not, by your lack of posting your uplines' tool profits.

Eric,

How much does your upline make on tools?

We will all judge whether your upline is a liar based on your answer or non-answer to this question.

I gave Piet four specific reasons why the level of tool profit is important. What you perceive as "rude accusations" are merely very simple and obvious questions a fellow "teammate" and "business partner" should expect to know the answer to, Eric.

It gets to guts of where the bulk of the business profit is derived from, which happens to be your back pocket in the form of tool profits, as well as the back pockets of the other IBO's you see sitting around you at the meetings, and the IBO's you involve in the tool system of your upline.

I suggest you become a real Independent Business Owner and understand the basics of YOUR business, which is quite a different proposition than buying a car or lawnmower.

You can only "win" this discussion by finding out the FACTS for YOUR business. As I have said many times before, I am not interested in "winning" the discussion, just let the facts speak for themselves.

People were told much more recently than 24 years ago the systems were non-profit. Only since the advent of the internet in the past 10-12 years has this information become known. And most IBO's STILL don't know HOW MUCH profit is being made on tools, which is the crux of Rich Devos' "Directly Speaking" recordings. One of those IBO's is probably YOU, Eric.