Amway Global Ada-tudes: A View from the Top : Welcome

Welcome

Wednesday, January 31, 2007 by Jim Payne
Category: Announcements

Over the past year many of you have heard us talk about two key strategies for igniting growth back in our North America business. One is First Circle which is all about helping the new person make money sooner in this business. We are committed to building on the best business opportunity in the world through the First Circle.

The other key strategy is reputation and building our reputation through greater transparency and honesty. For too long we have let others tell our story and have not responded to counter the negative lies ....or the negative truths. We have a great business, we have tons of positive stories to share with others and to tell the world...... so we're here to tell them.

The Opportunity Zone is a series of blogs (I am new to this whole environment ) that talk about the Quixtar business--- the products, plan, IBOs, sponsorships, how we give back as a collective organization.... It's our opportunity to tell our story and no longer be silent. Personally, I am excited about this forum to speak out, to participate in the conversation and for people to hear how and why this business has helped so many, in so many different ways.

As I said, I am new to this whole blogging world. But the Opportunity Zone is the another step in the many different initiatives that we are committed to help build our reputation and tell our story so the public can get the whole story on how great this business is and how it has touched so many people in so many positive ways. I hope that you will join us in sharing your thoughts through comments to blogs in the Opportunity Zone as well as your stories and experiences.

Comments

Anonymous said: February 1, 2007 5:11 PM | #

Howdy Mr. Payne...you're on the web now; can I call you, Jim? Welcome to the blogosphere. And if you have any questions on blogging, you can always ask Beth...she's learning pretty good. Put on your "thick skin" and dive on in. Dave

Tex said: February 1, 2007 8:41 PM | #

Jim,

I look forward to exchanging ideas with you. Instead of boring you with a lot of details, you can find my posts on Kia and Beth's blogs to get a better feel regarding my positions if you want to do so. I use the title "Curious" on Beth's blog.

Your two key strategies are great priorities, and they can be fixed with getting one key issue resolved. That issue is tool profits.

The "First Circle" will be swallowed up with tool costs unless the tool prices are brought down. I have never seen the upline show the plan and tell the prospect(s) most of what the upline makes comes from the tools (tapes/CD's, books, and functions), the tools they will be strongly encouraged to buy. The tools will require a VERY large first circle to get to a net profit, unless the upline tools are not used. I know the tools are optional, but this is only true in theory, not in practice.

The reputation issue is also rooted in the tool profit issue. Amway and Quixtar, by themselves, have no reason to have a bad reputation. However, the "kingpins" and their excessive tool profits are the root cause of the reputation problem. Rich DeVos hit the bulls-eye in 1983 with his "Directly Speaking" tapes, and now this and a lot of other information supporting what he said is becoming organized on the internet, and there is no turning back. Even though he said these things 24 years ago, these issues are still common to this day.

Accreditation does very little to help these issues. The bottom line is the amount of tool profit must be known to IBO's and prospects, as this will allow the free market to decide whether the tools are properly priced. Anything short of this will fail, in my opinion.

Mike said: February 2, 2007 1:33 AM | #

Great site! Lets keep in mind that we can all choose not to participate in an upline training program if we do not find any value there. We can build a community of IBO's and customers the way we see fit if that is what we choose...after all it is our own business. This opportunity is incredible, lets all work on getting that message out. It's time for North America to set the pace for Alticor.

Make it happen.

Tex said: February 2, 2007 11:12 AM | #

Mike,

Good point, but it is not the culture of the groups to support this direction. Most IBO's do not know enough about business and are given the "hard sell" on the tools when shown the plan. So although you are technically correct, in the practical world this approach will yield very limited results by itself.

Anna Bryce said: February 3, 2007 9:51 AM | #

(Posted on behalf of Jim Payne)

Tex,

Both Quixtar and the Line of Affiliation (LOA) leaders agree. The free market decides if Business Support Materials (BSMs) are properly priced. If people feel they are not receiving a value that meets or exceeds the price, they should not purchase the item offered.

We ( Quixtar and the Independent Business Owners Association International [IBOAI] ) have jointly agreed to many consumer protections for BSMs, such as the 180 day buy back and positioning that clearly states the purchase of BSMs is voluntary, to name just two. If people are experiencing anything to the contrary, they should immediately contact the source of the material to seek corrective action or contact our Rules and Conduct division for immediate correction. This is not theory. This is fact.

As to the " Kingpins," I can't tell you what they do. That is a pejorative term used by some critics to immediately create a negative connotation of the Line of Affiliation/Line of Sponsorship (LOA/LOS) leadership and this is the only response I will make when that term is used. It is unfortunate some use this word to try and create preconceived notions that are not fair.

I am willing to engage in civil discourse that sometimes requires admitting the obvious. We are not perfect, no one is .... however, the tools and the system have a place in our business, but they must be in balance. We understand the importance of addressing this issue and it is being addressed together with the leadership in this business ... I promise you.

First Circle has been universally embraced by both the corporate and field leadership. We are firmly committed to this direction, but this is not something that happens overnight. There are numerous studies and initiatives. Some will see the light of day and some will not. This is a long journey and probably never ending. We hope that people join us on this journey as we make an already great business even greater.

Jim

Tex said: February 3, 2007 12:32 PM | #

Jim,

Out of a spirit of real cooperation, I will also no longer use the "K" word to describe the people who benefit from the tool profits when I communicate with you.

Do you know it is a fact the higher pins call us, and encourage us to call them (and the terms themselves imply this anyway) their "business partners" and "teammates"? Would you want to have a business partner or business teammate who does not disclose the source of the vast majority of their income, especially when it is coming out of YOUR pocket and going into theirs?

Not only going into theirs, but they are also quite fond of "encouraging" and "motivating" us by displaying their goodies as a means of proving how good the Q business is, when most of what they are showing came from tool profits. For me, the answer is NO. And putting a small disclaimer buried in an Achieve magazine doesn't cut it, either.

What I am saying is your rules are inadequate. This is not theory. This is fact. The business has been flat for the last decade, or so said Doug DeVos recently. The past year again shows flat growth, probably negative growth when the price inflation is factored in.

My theory is the advent of the internet has blown the lid off the tool profit issue, and the sad fact is most of the upper pin folks literally can't afford to live the lifestyle they are accustomed to if a real free market existed, with IBO's knowing how much money is made on tools, just like Rich DeVos correctly stated in 1983. What makes this issue even more significant is the fact that much of the purpose of tools is to transfer information. The cost of transferring information has decreased by several orders of magnitude over the past 10-20 years, making the tool prices even more glaring. Consider what we have been doing in just the past couple of days and think how much it would cost in pre-internet days to transfer and make visible to literally billions of people what we have discussed in the past 2 days, in postage/paper alone?

It would also be dishonest to simply tell the higher pins to stop these material displays of wealth, as this would be far too small a step to take for a large problem. I know this is a tough issue, but it is a 24 year old issue that needs to be resolved quickly, or you and me, and many others may be looking for other places to make a living/make extra money.

I agree with EVERYHING Rich said on his "Directly Speaking" tapes, including the tools have a place and purpose in this business, but they have become the tail wagging the dog in terms of profit motive. I seriously don't care how much money the upper level pins make on tools, as long it is disclosed to their business partners and teammates. This would be a true free market, not the one you incorrectly claim it is currently.

I am not surprised the field leadership supports the First Circle initiative, they can take the First Circle profit and put it in their pocket via tool profits. What you need is not "field leadership", you need REAL leadership. A real leader knows the most important thing he/she can do for their group is honesty. Look up that one in your studies, and I am not saying this to be funny, it is the number one attribute a leader MUST have, and is even more necessary now that the internet will show no mercy to those who continue to lie about tool profits.

As far as "overnight" is concerned, it has been about 8,760 (24 years times 365 nights/year) nights since Rich made his "Directly Speaking" tapes, how many more "overnights" do you think you need?

I also want to join you on the journey to make the business better, but I question it can be called a great business in its current form. How many more Joe Morrison, Bruce Anderson, TIF, Ken Stewart, Brig Hart, the new class action lawsuit, and other lawsuits do you need before you realize Rich DeVos was right 24 years ago? It really is too bad the problem was not fixed in 1983, but we can't cry over spilled milk, even 24 year old spilled milk. The problem is now even more entrenched and institutionalized than it was back then.

Jim, you may have no idea how much I am on your side, but I can only change my own business (which I am doing) and encourage you to make overall changes. I am very concerned that although my changes fix my business, they will not be enough to save the overall business.

Anonymous said: February 3, 2007 9:48 PM | #

Great Ada-tude! Looking forward to this forum and great discussions. It is wonderful to see opportunities to show the positive side of the business and help dispell the untrue or negative comments. Thank you for yet another venue to help the success of IBO's.

Mary

Sandie said: February 4, 2007 12:00 AM | #

When I worked as a Real Estate Broker, I bought books and tapes and paid to attend seminars so I could be updated and informed relative to my profession. When i worked for the MN State Patrol, I went to seminars, watched videos and sat in on meetings and seminars to stay in tune with what was happening in my surroundings to do a good job for my employer. As a Quixtar IBO, I depend on the CD's to provide me with leadership, business acumen, marketing ideas, people skills, etc. I certainly would not expect to get these things free. I believe that Tex is attempting to undermine a valuable resource made available to IBO's, by their line of sponsorship, to help them grow a business with a strong foundation. Tex, your negative attitude is not welcome here and we will not give credence to your attempt to create discord. I believe it's time to admit you failed in building the business and the only one you can blame is you! This business works when you work.

Anonymous said: February 4, 2007 6:43 PM | #

Mr. Payne,

What Tex said is exactly right about the tools. When I decided to no longer participate in my upline's tool system, I was ex-communicated from the group. They will not answer letters, phone calls, or e-mails about when and where functions are. It's all or nothing--so I'm going with nothing. This business is not like becoming a surgeon. It is simple. Make a list, find out what people are looking for. Set up 10 to 15 customers that give you 100 to 200 PV. Be loyal and do 200 to 300 personal PV. Then share the opportunity and teach others to do what you do. It's as simple as that. No tool system is needed. This business will have a bad reputation until the tool systems and those who profit from them are completely gone. Not accredited, but GONE. Then this business can return to what Rich and Jay meant for it to be.

The other thing that holds this business back is that some of the products are inconveniently packaged. I do not use or promote the SA8 Tablets because I do not feel it's right to force a customer or IBO to buy 2 boxes. If I want the travel size Glister toothpaste, why should I have to buy 6? Or 4 jars of peanut butter? Or 6 boxes of cereal? Or 12 4-roll packs of toilet paper? It's nuts. I don't do it at my local store and I'm not going to do it with Quixtar. I could list 50 other things that are inconveniently packaged, including the XS Energy Drinks. Why not 6 cans? Or a variety pack?

Don't get me wrong--I love the business. But these are just two issues that won't go away because they won't be dealt with head on and corrected. I really, really hope they will be soon, so we can be on the grow again. Thanks for listening.

--Jeffrey

Anonymous said: February 4, 2007 11:10 PM | #

I was in retail for 13 years before going full time with Quixtar. The very same type of tools are used in the "corperate world". I went into a management training course with a major home improvment store and heard exactly the same information that is in our tools. No matter where you get it an education in business helps and as for the price, have you priced higher education lately. Corperations pay a great deal of money to train their people. The cost of our books and cds are pennies compared to what they pay.

As for package sizes, I just break them down and sell the extras. I can sell my customer 1 box of SA8 tabs at a redueced price and keep the other one for my self or use it for samples. Remember this is your business and you can manage your product with creativity and style.

Anonymous said: February 5, 2007 12:05 AM | #

I agree with anonymous on inconvenient packaging, I do not have room to store large quantities. There is one monthly PV item that I will like in its packaging and that is the paper combos. I feel that you should have more mixed packaging and combinations of more frequently used items, an example would be: combos of different cereals (in regular sized boxes), I have not tried alot of the food products because of the quantities and prices! I understand about the quality of goods and organic choices being higher priced, however, the people in my geographical area do not have the incomes to start this business the way it stands now, we live for bargains, and I am having a slow go of it. I am not saying that Alticor should start a dollar store, I'm saying that the company could be appealing to everyone, on second thought is there a dollar store that we could partner with? WOW, I bet I'm not the first one to have that thought.

Other than the above, I love my mentors and the caring non-pressured way they conduct business at presentations. We are having a difficult time getting new people to meetings though. Not ever running my own business before I truly believe that listening to the CD's are a must to motivate new IBO's like myself (ours are loaned out from our upline at this time). The person above that chose to not purchase tapes and books must be very confident and he is truly blessed. Any thoughts on this?

Sherrie

Anonymous said: February 5, 2007 12:21 AM | #

Jeffrey,

There is no way any company can make every potential customer happy, and if they try they will soon be out of business. I'm sure suggestions and feedback are always welcome, however in my opinion your focus is misdirected. The question should be "based on the current product offering and compensation plan, am I willing to do what it takes to make this thing fly?" Every company has a hook. Walmart is cheap, Target is cheap while pretending your not cheap, Whole Foods is feel good about myself organic, Quixtar is quality and convenience with an insane compensation plan...not serving size. Your success will be based on how bad you want to make this happen, not how many cans come in a case of XS.

As far as upline training, if you don't want to participate in their training program I don't see how the seminars will be of any value to you...why plug into a system that you do not agree with? You seem to understand the basic building blocks of this business...go for it.

You can be a great example for what is possible, focus on what is good and help to set the pace for North America.

Best.

Brad said: February 5, 2007 9:54 AM | #

Mr. Payne,

Welcome to the blog-o-sphere and thanks for taking your time to post and provide a video. I eagerly look forward to the information passed on at this "Opportunity Zone" and some first hand information about the progress of Accreditation, First Circle and other business enhancing strategies.

Thanks again!

-Brad

Anonymous said: February 5, 2007 12:00 PM | #

I still feel that Quixtar does not believe there is a problem with inconvenient packaging. They act like they don't have the faintest idea of what I'm talking about. I wish each Q employee would go to their local store, buy their stuff, then when they get to the check out, have the stock boy bring cases up of paper products, ketchup, peanut butter, shelf-stable entrees, toothbrushes, energy drinks, and snack foods, saying, "This is the only way we sell this. You have to buy it by the case." The Q employee would walk out of the store on the spot, most likely leaving the rest of their order, too. That's what IBOs and customers do, too, although Quixtar never even knows it. All I am saying is they should just try it for one year. I think they would be amazed at how much more would move. They ask for suggestions, then don't want to hear them.

--Jeffrey

Anonymous said: February 5, 2007 1:52 PM | #

Greetings Mr. Payne. Welcome to the online world, and I'm sure you have seen a number of changes in the way business has been conducted in your various career placements. The fact that you are adapting to the internet is a strong indicator that you understand how important the internet has become.

Everyone who has commented thus far has made valid points, and it was very nice to see that people with actual product movement ideas were able to relay those ideas to you directly.

One comment that I think was the most revealing was made by Sandie:

"As a Quixtar IBO, I depend on the CD's to provide me with leadership, business acumen, marketing ideas, people skills, etc. "

Mr. Payne, I challenge you to listen to a random selection of 10 tapes that the IBO's are provided by the "leaders". If even one of them wholly contains what Sandie describes they contain, I would be surprised.

The present system "tools" can hardly be considered anything but motivation, and as has already been revealed, despite you attempting to put the best foot forward, unfortunately, its an all or nothing approach.

I admire your goal and committment to making Quixtar a better plan with fewer negative associations with it.

You got your hands full

Beth Dornan said: February 5, 2007 5:34 PM | #

The comments about packaging are completely valid, and that's why over the years we've moved to more "eaches" in ordering -- but we still have a way to go in some areas!

While you can easily get someone to buy a single lipstick or bottle of vitamins, it's much harder to convince them they need to order several months' supply at one time!

Anonymous said: February 6, 2007 2:42 PM | #

Beth and Jim,

I appreciate your willingness to utilize this forum to engage those of us with questions and comments. I believe the tone thus far has been helpful and I hope it stays that way.

I have only two thoughts to share. First, I really believe Tex has a decent grasp of the tool issue and his perspective on the Quixtar related tool businesses is held by many. The market may determine the price of tools, but if you believe your organization's tools are not worth the money, what are your future options for training yourself or your personal organization? You may end up with your group going in two directions -- you remaining outside your upline's tool business and some of your downline still connected to the upline tools. (Now there's surefire formula for you to become an IBO orphan!) So while the theory may be somewhat accurate, the practice is less so.

Could that disappointed IBO pursue training and tools outside his organization through another accredited tool organization? I doubt it. So if you are in an organization with overpriced tools or one that is unwilling to step up to the accredidation process you are likely out of luck (and wouldn't even know there was a problem until you were registered in the business and couldn't make a change).

Second, the other issue is the unwillingness of tool organizations to take advantage of today's media options in providing information and training at lower cost than ever before, instead of at greater cost year after year. I lead a group of 15 men in a church discipleship team and several times a year I provide them with one mp3 CD with thirty or forty sermons and lectures on it. It saves them money and demonstrates my primary interest is in getting the information to them, not in charging them for thirty or forty CDs with one sermon on each one. If the primary interest of the tool organizations was truly getting the information out to help their IBOs build their businesses (and secondarily their tool businesses) I honestly think they would take a somewhat different tack in this area.

This issue is not going to go away. The company will drag it behind it like a caboose until it begins to truly see the control and the dynamics at play here. That being said, I do believe the company is trying today to gain a better understanding of everything involved with how tools affect the business and IBOs in the business.

Please keep in mind, many of us, myself included, who are sharing our thoughts with you in this forum absolutely love the company and the business. We would just like to see more willingness to "walk a mile or two in our shoes" -- and we will try to do the same with you. These new blogs are a great start.

Thanks,

Chuck

Anonymous said: February 8, 2007 12:38 AM | #

Not to be redundant, but I am going to be anyway. Just one last time, I'm going to clarify why all the products should be available in eaches: Many people, even those building the business, are on a budget. Several of our customers are elderly. They may also have space limitations in their homes. It would be much easier for an elderly person, young couple (early 20's), or a single person, to buy ONE box of SA8 Tablets rather than the two we are now forced to buy. Yes, they will have to order it more often. But with the $15 or so savings of having to buy the other box, they can purchase maybe the Clarifying Cleanser they also need. When things are packaged inconveniently, rather than running up a big total, people start deleting items. If all the items they need happen to be packaged inconveniently, let's say: ketchup, peanut butter, paper towels, Seismic drinks and snacks, and the XS Shakes, rather than just ordering one or two things, they won't order any of them. They just start picking the stuff up at the store. It does happen. I have seriously considered splitting these case lots up with the group, but then that means going back to the old Amway call-in and pick-up days. It also means I would have to resurrect my old computer that's out in the garage with my old Amware Gold software, so I could split up all the case prices into cost-per-unit prices. Then, it totally defeats the concept of online ordering. Please, Quixtar, stop selling this stuff in case lots. I realize some things absolutely cannot be shipped in eaches because of an environmental hazard or leakage factor, but most things can be. Thank you for listening and I will try to behave and not bring it up again. (Until I go Diamond and I'm at Peter Island.) If anyone in marketing is reading this, please e-mail me at extremelyBizE@msn.com, and I'll give you my phone number so we can talk. I think it's that important.

--Jeffrey

Anonymous said: February 8, 2007 12:44 AM | #

Hey Jim,

Great new idea!! We've got to get the good stories out. I think DVDs are nice, but why don't we launch a massive YouTube campaign where we invite tons of people to make their own videos expressing how great their experience has been?

I think we need to curtail some negative influences on the internet for sure. For example, there is a new movie coming out about MLMs. It's an award winning comedy:

Believe The Movie

www.believethemovie.com

Personally I thought it was funny and I did notice in the Mark Fuller instructional videos some things people do that they probably shouldn't. But I just wonder how people will react to it. Are they going to assume that every company is like that, including Quixtar?

I really hope not and I hope that what you are doing now is going to be good for the business.

Thank you,

Joseph

Tex said: February 8, 2007 4:40 PM | #

Jim,

Why didn't you post my response to Sandie's February 4 post?

You allowed her to post opinions of me, but not my opinions in response to her.

You can run your blog in any manner you choose, but I consider this extremely unfair.

Anna Bryce said: February 8, 2007 9:21 PM | #

Tex,

Adatudes hasn't received any comments from you since February 3rd, until now. If we received the comment and it fit within our comments policy, we would have certainly posted it! I will check with IT to make sure all systems are go and we're not experiencing any technical difficulties. Meanwhile, please resend your comment.

Thanks!

Anna Bryce

Managing Editor -- Opportunity Zone

Tex said: February 9, 2007 7:41 AM | #

Anna,

Thanks for checking. It appeared to accept the comment.

Sandie said,

"When I worked as a Real Estate Broker, I bought books and tapes and paid to attend seminars so I could be updated and informed relative to my profession."

Did the people you bought the real estate books, tapes and seminars from tell you they were your "business partners" and "teammates"? Did they either directly state or strongly imply they made most of their income from real estate while they actually made most of their money from the books, tapes, and seminars? Would you consider them real "business partners" or "teammates" if the above was true?

"When i worked for the MN State Patrol, I went to seminars, watched videos and sat in on meetings and seminars to stay in tune with what was happening in my surroundings to do a good job for my employer."

I assume you did not pay for these items, true?

"As a Quixtar IBO, I depend on the CD's to provide me with leadership, business acumen, marketing ideas, people skills, etc. I certainly would not expect to get these things free."

I never said they should be free. However, I do support EVERYTHING Rich DeVos said in his "Directly Speaking" tapes regarding the AMOUNT of profit being made. In fact, I can accept even greater than the 20% tool profit (compared to A/Q profit), as long as the amount of profit is disclosed to their IBO's (their "teammates" and "business partners", remember).

"I believe that Tex is attempting to undermine a valuable resource made available to IBO's, by their line of sponsorship, to help them grow a business with a strong foundation."

I believe Sandie has misunderstood my posistion. I am seeking the truth regarding tool profits and the true nature of the business, especially the source of profit for Emeralds and above.

"Tex, your negative attitude is not welcome here and we will not give credence to your attempt to create discord. I believe it's time to admit you failed in building the business and the only one you can blame is you! This business works when you work."

I have a positive attitude towards improving the reputation of the Q business, of which I am a part of as an IBO. If "discord" is being created it is only because the unsavory truth is being revealed regarding tool profits, and believe this truth should be made available to all current IBO's and prospects, so they all know the truth about the tool profits. I have developed our own lower cost tool system and have not been defeated. Quite the opposite. However, if this problem is not fixed, I doubt the business can continue long term, as the internet is currently damaging the reputation and will continue to do so, evidenced by flat sales for the past decade plus, consistent with the arrival of the internet in the public forum.

Pat said: February 15, 2007 10:47 PM | #

Following Tex's/Snadie and a couple of Anonymous posts-

I was told that buying tools was the only way I would get access and help from my upline. that line of thinking is confirmed on many tapes and CD's.

If you listen closely you will realize that the material is pretty much all the same. The goal is to motivate IBO's enough to make it to the next function.

I have worked for several large organizations that believed so much in books and tapes that they made them available to the field sales force for free. they used a wide variety of teachers so new ideas could be shared (something looked down on in the business).

If the material is so important why is it not done at cost.

If BSM's is a revenue stream it should be disclosed in the beginning-I was not given a fair shake when I was shown the plan.

If Quixtar is a direct sales organization then focus on selling not meeting.

Anonymous said: February 17, 2007 3:09 PM | #

I hope I'm not too late to chime in here.

First, Jim, Beth, Anna, et al this is fantastic. It is exciting to move from the middle ages of corporate obfuscation to some 21st century transparency. Thank you and I am impressed and thrilled.

Sandie,

chill out a bit. No one of us will be better than all of us and if you think Tex's opinions are negative, you have been insulated from many outsiders opinions of us. I agree with most of your points, but it's unfortunate that you would want to invalidate the opinions of someone who doesn't agree with you.

Tex,

I have also participated in various tool and education systems in my other careers form MS certifications(etc) for my tech support business to various conventions annually that I would be expected to attend as the Director of SQA for a firm in NYC. You are right that in the situations where I was the employee, the corporation paid for those events, but I will point out that as an executive I purchased my own tools and materials above and beyonf what was provided. Many of these items were instructional (C++ guides, Introductions to ASP, ancient history) and many of them were almost purely motivational (Tony Robbins, Kiyosaki). But they were all valuable to me.

Your point of transparency in the toll profits is on the money. It is a point that needs to be addressed, but I have to tell you it has been addressed by my upline (partners, teamates). I am involved in (I believe) the largest tool system and more and more emphasis is being put on explaining upfront that there is profit involved in the education business and that it is a business that every IBO will have an opportunity to profit from once their business reaches the Platinum level and beyond. We are also very much on board with the spirit of First Circle in that we encourage every new IBO to create retail clients and spend considerable training time on it (I'd say almost half).

I would be happier if there was a better disclosure across the board of tool profits, but in any large business (as our LOA is) change comes slower than the new mavericks want and faster than the old horses want. it's just the nature of organizations.

But dude, don't be so despairing. I'm afraid that in the same way that Sandy may never have read any of the negative comments floating around, you may be reading too many. I don't think we're in danger of imploding, and I do think the business will survive this newest round of attacks. The thing about a grassroots effort is that age can kill it. Grass gets old and forgets what it was like to be a root. Thank God in this business we are looking for more young roots.

Agitators (with respect) are beneficial to any organization committed to grow. I believe you are beneficial to this conversation. Agitate away.

Last response is to Anon (Jeffrey),

Simple is a funny thing. I agree the business is simple, but I think you're totally wrong on no tools system is needed. Real Estate is a simple thing, you buy desirable properties in desirable areas at lower than market prices and sell them at a profit, yet here's a link to over 1300 books about real estate http://browse.barnesandnoble.com/browse/nav.asp?bncatid=967832&visgrp=nonfiction.

Why, because the vast majority of human being need help to succeed in any undertaking. The case could be made that Seth Godin and Tom Peters and their contemporaries are repetitive, yet it is accepted wisdom that they are brilliant and worth every penny they charge for consulting and speaking.

I just think you should think it through.

Thanks for reading this if you got this far and let's grow this company together.

Tex said: February 17, 2007 10:13 PM | #

Right On!

My agitation (truth) is intended to be like a piece of sand in an oyster, which will eventually produce a pearl (although that ironically is no longer a pin, is it?)

I am not despairing as much as I am impatient and disgusted, it has been over 24 years since the problem was identified in Rich Devos' "Directly Speaking" tapes, after all. Only since the internet has been around has this information been more available.

I also agree the educational tools are valuable, but we must know HOW MUCH money is being made on all of the tools, including books, tapes/CD's and functions. How much have they told you about the tool profits? We heard several years ago the Platinums make some money (several hundred dollars a month), but this must be used to offset travel costs to support their group. They will not get this money if they are not "on the road" enough.

Anonymous said: February 21, 2007 12:06 PM | #

Tex, do you think nothing has changed in the last 24 years?

Tex said: February 21, 2007 3:38 PM | #

Anon,

A lot has changed, but not when it comes to tool profits. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was worse today than in 1983. So I guess you could even say a lot has changed in this area as well.

Many bloggers have stated their upline used to claim no money was made on tools, then when it was obvious money was being made, the higher pins still didn't come clean and say how much is being made, which is THE KEY issue, as Rich Devos indicated in 1983.

Why do you ask?

ibofightback said: February 22, 2007 2:22 PM | #

Many people commenting on blogs have also said they were told right from the get go that there was profit in tools (as would be obvious from the start to anyone with any business nous)

Tex said: February 22, 2007 5:01 PM | #

ibofb,

I know that, such as yourself. Were you told how much was made? Let me shortcut the answer, we have gone over this many times on your site and qblog. The answer is NO, and this is the key question, the AMOUNT of tool profit compared to A/Q profit. You are again covering old ground, and you know it.

Alan said: February 22, 2007 11:30 PM | #

Joseph, nobody has responded to your question, so I will. First of all, I think that a massive YouTube campaign would not be beneficial. YouTube is already inundated with millions of videos. I really don't think people will go out of their way to watch someone's testimonial about Quixtar. We can accomplish the same thing simply by bringing people our own testimonials and through their personal education. I don't think we should make people sick of us by blasting our name out there all over YouTube.

And secondly, I don't think that movie Believe will have much of an effect. It will be short lived and then die out. MLM is a proven business structure and it is here to stay.

I checked out the site at www.believethemovie.com and watched the trailers. It just makes me mad that people are so blind to the benefits of such a great business system. These people are just trying to play off the many disgruntled quitters that couldn't hack it in MLM. I hope the movie really flops!

Tex said: February 23, 2007 10:50 AM | #

Alan,

Joseph's question was directed to Jim Payne, who has been conspicuously silent on his own blog.

I don't mind that he is gathering information, but it is possible to take listening too far.

Listening without responding is called ignoring.

I am not here to "blow off steam" and feel better, I am here to help cause change.

Jim?

Tex said: February 23, 2007 1:53 PM | #

Jim,

Here's another idea.

I know blogs are time consuming, but a weekly post from you communicating what you have absorbed and what you are doing would be a huge benefit.

I would rather you spend more of your time fixing problems rather than blogging, so how does this sound?

You could even name it, "According to Jim". :-)

Dave54 said: February 23, 2007 6:58 PM | #

Why doesn't Quixtar post free tools on the web? Quixtar has the production facilities and the web presence to make this happen. Let IBO's download or stream these tools and put the tool profit issue to rest.

Another point to consider is having Quixtar reduce their margins to make the products price competitive at the retail level. In the old days Amway was a small company without the economies of scale and purchasing power to compete with P&G and other large competitors. Now Quixtar is a multi-billion dollar worldwide enterprise.

Let's sell more product at a lower cost and put more profit in the pockets of the small IBO.

Tex said: February 24, 2007 12:27 AM | #

Dave54,

I don't think they even have to be free. I don't mind paying for covering the production costs, plus a reasonable profit, whether it is the higher pins or Q producing the materials.

Pat said: February 24, 2007 9:58 AM | #

To Dave54-

If you gut the tool system money most of the bigger pins would not be making the 7 figure incomes they claim from stage. I have heard Diamonds say from stage that they have never sold a product and really don't know how. This is supposed to be a direct selling organization that has turned into a group purchasing organization. The CD's could be available on line for pennies. The hotels room at the fuctions are cheaper if you book directly with the hotel and avoid convention concepts. the books are cheaper at Amazon.

Tools are vital in any position-go to any motivational speaker (Ziglar, Gitomer etc) and you will find a recommendation to read and listen. If my upline thought that tools were so important why do they make so much money from it. Maybe the money is more important and the products are secondary.

Skip F said: February 24, 2007 12:13 PM | #

Dave,

Your idea to have Q provide the tools, meetings etc has been mentioned many times on this blog. It is without question the best and fastest solution to the system problem.

I hope more people keep asking for Q to step up and make the obvious changes. Those IBO's who feel they must have tools would still have access to them through Q. If they understand this, why are they so upset. Everyone should be happy except those who have been getting rich on the tool profits.

Oh, and to answer the people that think that the critics of systems should just build the buisness, I for one am building the buisness.

I have enjoyed the "Achievers" conferences and the $10,000 check that goes with for many years!

I am a critic of the systems because I know how much damage they have done to Q's reputation.

I want to protect my busienss so it will still be there years from now. That's why I agree with Dave when he says Q needs to take over the tool and meeting support for IBO's before it is to late!

Q, lets hear what you have to say....

Brad said: February 28, 2007 1:54 PM | #

Regarding Quixtar providing tools:

They are already doing a good job in many of the product lines with downloadable fliers, training, as well as information and DVDs for purchase. They can train very well on retailing and marketability, perhaps even sales, but when it comes to building and leading a network of IBOs, they will definitely have to align their training with other successful IBOs who have done it. Something should be developed to allow this communication and flow of tools while also making sure the newest IBO learns how tools work, the cost, and how they are to be used. Past abuse as been: tools forced on an IBO that does not understand them and really shouldn't be using many of them. Fix that potential problem.

Tex said: February 28, 2007 8:23 PM | #

Past abuse? I went to an open recently, and it was briefly mentioned the tools were optional, then MUCH more time was spent saying how essential the tools are.

Potential problem? It is not a potential, it is REAL.

Piet said: March 1, 2007 12:20 PM | #

Tex said: Past abuse? I went to an open recently, and it was briefly mentioned the tools were optional, then MUCH more time was spent saying how essential the tools are.

Piet says: Promoting the tools, and emphasizing their importance is not abuse. Getting people to spend money that they don't have on tools, that is abuse.

In our BSG tool money is not included in possible incomes, only Amway profits. In one of our seminars a while back, an emerald spent a whole session on a "possible" budget for an IBO. As I have said elsewhere, BSG's are not created equal, and don't tar them all with the same brush.

Skip F said: March 1, 2007 12:51 PM | #

Tex, your right again! The tools systems are still a problem. The internet has exposed the negative of systems for all to see. No getting around it, we have to change.

Brad, uplines can still have meetings and be the leader while using Q provided tools. You make it sound as if there is no way tools could be effective unless they are created by an upline or the system leaders.

IBO's use, sell and sponsor. How many hundreds of $$$ in tools does it take to teach someone how to do this! At some point it just comes down to doing the work. However, IBO's get trapped into thinking that one more meeting or one more tool could make the difference and of course there is always a persuasive upline that reinforces this. We just need to take the tool profit out of the systems. Its really that simple!

Q/A has been around longer than any IBO. They know what the challenges are out in the field and how to address them. As new and helpful info becomes available Q can provide it. Q was affraid, until recently, to compete with the systems because of the threat of a boycott. Now Q realizes the true cause for the flat growth for the past 10 years and is going to do what ever it takes to get back on track. As Brad said, Q is doing a good job now of stating to provide us with the tool support we need.

Brad, what info do you think your system leader could give you that Q couldn't. Or, if these system leaders are so skilled at putting out all these great tools, why not submit them to Q to be used for the benifit of all IBO's. "A high tide raises all the boats". I think part of the problem with systems is they are trying to out do one another to convince prospects that theirs is the right system to get in with. In my opinion, the "Team Quixtar" attitude is much more effective in the real battle against other MLM company's.

Lets not lose sight of the fact that systems, in their present form are not effective or we would not be experiencing the flat growth and high attrition rate. How does that saying go... "doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results is insanity".

Tex said: March 1, 2007 3:48 PM | #

Piet,

I am aware there are "soft sell" and "hard sell" groups, and even individuals within those groups, when it comes to tool sales. But that doesn't diminish the overall problem.

There are also groups who heavily product consumption, as some groups are "all or nothing, 100% product loyalty" groups, which generally go hand-in-hand with the level of tool use "militancy".

I even blogged with someone who didn't use deoderant for 2-3 MONTHS, because Q's was on backorder. And he thought he was being "loyal". Unbelievable. If it wasn't true, it would be funny. A people business, and no deoderant use?

Getting back on track. The answer? IF the tools are truly to help the IBO's, then there is no reason NOT to be transparent regarding their profit. We know the profit from X amount of A/Q volume, why not the same for tools? This kind of tranparency would balance the natural human tendency to take advantage of others.

How much tool money does your Emeralds and above make, Piet? If you don't know, ask them and see what kind of a reaction you get, as the reaction will tell you far more than I ever could.

Ano said: March 7, 2007 1:19 PM | #

Q "Connections" is June 9th. I wonder how many systems will support this?

Kurt said: March 12, 2007 6:02 AM | #

Tex,

You've made some great points, but I think you need to get over the issue of wanting the tools business owners to reveal how much they make.

Turn it lose man. The real battle is elsewhere, in things that matter.

Imagine if someone required you to reveal what you make. And it doesn't matter if you'd reveal it or not, so don't volunteer, just realize that people and/or businesses shouldn't be required to disclose their income.

That's not going to happen, so get over it and turn it lose. You've beat it into the ground man.

You've got so many good points. Keep up the good fight. We need you to continue being effective, and writing over and over about this disclose-the-profits issue is hurting your credibility.

It's an unfair requirement and it wouldn't solve the problem anyway.

Emails/posts can seem so cold. Don't take this that way. I'm for you, man.

Keep it coming, just drop the disclosure of income thing, ok?

Tex said: March 12, 2007 11:22 AM | #

Kurt,

The tool profit is THE central question, and it will not be dropped.

Q posts the average income of various pin levels, and that is all that needs to be done by the tool system owners.

I am not interested in building my credibility by those are not concerned about the truth, I am interested in doing what is right, which is to follow up on the issue that Rich Devos identified in the 1983 "Directly Speaking" recordings regarding the level of tool profits.

This issue has become even more severe, as the truth is now all over the internet, and is not going to get better, unless the Constitution is altered to prevent free speech.

Significant action must be taken in the near term to preserve a business I very much support.

Skip F said: March 12, 2007 1:27 PM | #

Kurt

Tex is right! IBO's should know the truth about where the money comes from that pays for the lifstyle that BSM leaders are showcasing. The truth is, in most cases the pv just isn't there to sustain the level of lifestyle that some brag about. What they want you to believe is that following the system will generated the pv and "you too" can live like this. Problem is, it's not the pv that is generating that kind of income.

If the pv isn't there, then the systems aren't as good as the BSM people would like you to believe. Only Q and the upline of a BSM leader knows what the pv really is.

I happen to know the upline for one of the bigger BSM leaders very well and they know the pv in no way could afford this couple the livestyle they have.

I don't care what knid of money these people make. I just want everyone to know that in many cases tool money was used by BSM leaders to buy other businesses in the U.S. and internationally to keep them qualifying. They are using your money via tools profit to make the system look more effective than it really is! This is the game that is played and the reason so many platinums and and above have quit!

If in fact the systems really did help build a solid long lasting buisness these IBO's would still be with us and the Q business would not have had over a decade of flat growth !

These above facts and resulting negative image of

Q has an impact on all our buisnessess. If there was a way to isolate the ngatives caused by the systems to only affect the systems I could care less what they do. But the plain truth is that it affect the entire world of Q from it's newest IBO to the Q employees.

It's unfortunately, there are so many IBO's still in denial!

Joecool said: March 12, 2007 8:59 PM | #

When I was in the business, I was told that nobody made any profit from tools and in fact, WWDB was a non profit organization. Now that these lies have been exposed, some of the pins admit money is made from tools and that IBOs can share in this, yet noone seems to know of how to qualify and how much you get for qualifying.

Tex said: March 13, 2007 10:39 AM | #

If you are accredited, the Platinums and above (or whatever the level where the tool profits start to be paid, but this is the most commonly known level) must have a written contract.

However, the Platinums are not aware of what the Emeralds and above make, and the IBO's below Platinum are not aware of what any Platinum and above makes.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the requirements in the contracts is to NOT tell IBO's less than Platinum how much money is made via tools.

LadyViceroy said: April 2, 2007 12:02 AM | #

Admittedly I am a blog newbie, however I feel I must interject a few things. Would "showing the plan" be effective if you had to show everyone not only the entire private franchising marketing plan, the QBI AND the tool profit numbers. It blows new people out because it sounds to good to be true when you show them the 6-4-2 marketing plan we use in my LOA and you want me to further complicate matters by explaining to them that they can also make money by selling tools to their downline when they get to Platinum which they may never get to anyway! I think the information SHOULD be made available for anyone who wants to know (in writing if they so desire) but I'd rather not spend time explaining something or worrying about something myself until I have to or need to. My time is too valuable to waste on something that will only make building this business more difficult. Besides if anyone has a beef with their BSG they can go to Q and the BBB and report them because they can't be accredited and not be incorporated somewhere as a business and they don't have to be a member of the BBB to get complaints filed. Therefore the BBB, can handle the masses(?) of complaints regarding tool prices and let Q do what it does best and refine their business. Report them for price gouging and false advertising, if the BSGs get enough complaints the won't be around for much longer. I always check the BBB for info about any new (to me) company I deal with and I did the same for Quixtar and my BSG.

Tex said: April 2, 2007 10:32 AM | #

It wouldn't take long to point out the typical Emerald and above can easily equal or exceed their Q income with tool profits (if this is true for your LOA).

If the profits are this big, it would be wrong not to mention this source of profit.

There are enough rules and "fine print" to point out tool profits are realized, to the extent it would probably make a BBB complaint not get much traction.

However, the disclosures do not describe the significance of these profits sufficiently, especially since the tool profits are coming directly out of your pocket and mine.

Do you want proof? How about a decade plus of flat business volume, coincident with the rise of the internet and more common knowledge of this long-standing problem.

Piet Strydom said: April 4, 2007 9:32 AM | #

As I have said before, the flat growth has only occurred in the United States and Canada. (Quixtar) In the rest of the world, Amway is growing hand over fist.

And yes, we have access to the same Internet you have, most of us understand English very well, we use the same BSG's you do and no, the US market is not that much older. And it actually is a lot larger, and a lot more wealthy, so I think your root cause is not really the tools business. Scratch further.

TB 2 IBO said: April 6, 2007 11:21 PM | #

From reading many and many and many, of these blogs over the past couple days, when time permits. Here is what I found with Tex.

1) Agrees tools are a good thing.

2) Agrees not one person has made it without them

3) Agrees other industries uses tools in much the same way

4) Doesn't have a problem with people making profit from the tools.

5) Thinks the larger pins make more that 2/3 income from tools--but he doesn't have proof.

6) Seems to only dwell on the past. Using "Directly Speaking" Waay too often. 24 years ago.

7) Doesn't think Quixtar and IBOAI aren't working to correct what ever problem maybe

So he thinks along these lines. Yet his ONLY issue is he wants to know how much a large pin makes from tools, and doesn't believe a Diamond or higher can live their lifestyle solely based on Q* money. That is the way I see it.

Here is a quick question Tex. If someone in your upline, who had knowledge of the income "figures" of the top leader, and they whispered to you the figure, what would you do with that information? Good or Bad.

...

You mention partners and teammates. Organizations, such as law firms, often keep to themselves. Disclosures of case information, profits, profit sharing..etc. For the "new" partner many of these details are kept from them. Why do you think that is? They are partners...they are helping each other out...why not give a full disclosure? The simple truth boils down to trust. Perhaps you haven't proven yourself worth of this trust and knowledge, let alone the additional income for your business (again, based on successful Q* business--using that training system).

I honestly don't know why this is such an issue for you. The fact is, if you are a big enough pin, with a following of people, you are making a GOB of money from Q*, and probably the tools as well.

Here is the kicker....what happens when other LOAs pay you money to come talk to their people? Does one have to disclose this too, in the world of Tex? Or what about to corporations separate from the world of Q*? hmm

Editor's Note: Portions of this comment have been edited to comply with Ada-tudes civil discourse policy.

Anna Bryce
Managing Editor -- Quixtar Opportunity Zone

Tex said: April 7, 2007 4:33 PM | #

TB 2 IBO,

We could have a much more open discussion on JC's site (http://ohana.lava.net/blogs/Joecool18), but I will repond here.

1. Agree

2. This depends on what your definition of "made it" is. Also, many went Diamond and above prior to having tools, but it makes no sense to go backwards and stop using tools. But you don't have to give up the huge tool profits and the tools at the same time.

3. Disagree. Most other industries using the tools do not make most of their profit from the tools, and if they do, they make this fact known.

4. Agree, as long as it is in the open.

5. There is plenty of proof, all the way from former Emeralds and Diamonds tell their stories, to the lack of founders pins coupled with extraordinary lifestyles from lower pin income, and numerous lawsuits, all exposing the facts. There is also the total lack of higher pins posting on this or other blogs over the years. What more do you need?

6. The "Directly Speaking" recordings identified the problem, and there has been no announcement in the following 24 years that anything has been done to fix the issue. Being old doesn't make it untrue, in fact the lack of announcing a fix for almost a quarter of a century is nothing to be proud of, wouldn't you agree?

7. Double negative, am not sure what you were trying to state. But the bottom line is the same problem Rich Devos identified 24 years ago has not been fixed.

Have you considered, if your upline Emerald or Diamond is not a Founders pin within a year or two the chances are very good they do not remain qualified at the original pin level? Does their lifestyle match a lower pin level?

I did ask a former Diamond how much tool profit he made, and it was 2/3 of his income. It was posted on his own blog, and I copied it and later pasted it on qblog. Even as a former Diamond, he wasn't anxious to admit to this, but did when pressed. You will find that in the qblog post as well, it is in the "Advocates" section under the topic "tool profits".

Besides, why would they have to "whisper" the figure to me, aren't they proud of their tool profits, just like they are of the Q profits that are known, at least for the average qualified Emerald, Diamond, etc? Doesn't the mere secrecy of the tool profits tell you something?

I mentioned business partners and teammates because that is what the upline calls us, and the nature of these terms is reciprocal. The difference between an IBO and a new law partner is huge. In the legal system, the profits come from different cases. In Q, the profits go from our pockets to the uplines' pockets. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

This is an issue for all IBO's, because the upline takes money from our pockets to theirs in the form of tool profits, and this money is the basis of their lifestyles, not the Q profits. They are not honest about this fact, but love to show us their "goodies" as though the profits came from Q. At best, it is called misrepresentation. At worst..... Anna probably won't print what it actually is, so I won't type the actual words.

Here is the kicker, your "other LOA" argument is an empty shell of a position. If they can't say where the money comes from, who cares they are all "cross-pollinating" into each other's groups? If they ever invited me to talk to their groups, I would tell the other group about how much of their lifestyle came from tools, and my "other LOA" speaking career would be over. Imagine that, being shut out of a speaking career in other LOA's for telling the truth. Doesn't that tell you something about the folks you are attempting to defend? Not to mention they are not here or on any other blogs for the past several years defending themselves?

TB 2 IBO said: April 9, 2007 11:59 PM | #

None of your comments have relevancy in fact. For example sakes: lets say 2/3 is tool profit. Isn't that profit based on a successful Q* business? Therefore, logically speaking the income is all Q*/Amway produced. Without Q*/Amway there would be no tools, and no tools equal no profit.

The example of the potential law partner is apples to apples. When that law partner "wins" a case for the firm do they not take their profit? Do they not in turn provide real world training and expertise he couldn't have learned as fast on his own? Does he learn from past mistakes the firm has made before he makes them? Of course, because it is all business and education, therefore it is all relevant.

Again, many have said it on here. It doesn't matter who is profiting from what. What does matter is that you receive value for purchasing the educational tools available to you. That is what matters. Not crying about what others have done and made. You have that EXACT same opportunity, and you can do with it as you please (under the rule of course). Again, Tex only when you build a proper Q* business. Do that first then you can complain.

Piet Strydom said: April 10, 2007 6:07 AM | #

Tex said: 5. There is plenty of proof, all the way from former Emeralds and Diamonds tell their stories,

You have a bit of a language problem up there - it should read "Emerald and Diamond", i.e. one of each, about 10 years ago.

Be honest when you post Tex!

Piet Strydom said: April 10, 2007 6:14 AM | #

Tex. how long have you been an IBO?

What is your current pin level?

Tex said: April 10, 2007 9:47 AM | #

In addition to not addressing several of my questions above, my comments have complete relevancy in fact.

Your example of 2/3 income from tools should equate to A/Q discrediting the "Directly Speaking" recordings, which they have not done.

Your example of 2/3 income should result in the upline being proud of their tool income and openly discussing it when showing the plan, or shortly after the prospect becomes an IBO, at the latest. This they have not done.

There is no excuse for an upline "business partner" or "teammate" to keep the basic business model a secret from their IBO's.

It does matter who is profiting from what, that is a fundamental business principle, knowing what is making money and what is losing money.

I don't have the EXACT same opportunity, because the Glister toothpaste is out of the tube, and there is no reasonable way of putting it back in the tube. The best thing to do is clean up the mess.

That means being "transparent" with regards to tool income. It does not mean trying to straighten up the rest of the house and ignoring the toothpaste mess.

Tex said: April 10, 2007 3:58 PM | #

Piet,

There are several former Emeralds and Diamonds that have left the business and been honest about the tool profits, not just the 2 I referenced previously. Also, it was more like 2 years ago, not 10. And that's the honest truth.

As far as how long I have been in, you can find that on various blogs. Regarding my pin level, I will let you know when I get to Platinum. However, the facts do not depend on how long I have been in or what my pin level is, facts are facts.

TB 2 IBO said: April 11, 2007 12:59 AM | #

Tex,

For one, the 2/3 was an example. Nothing more!

For two, you have absolutely NO, zero, zilch, nine information about how I represent or how our education system represents the business plan, especially in regards to tools and that people make money from them.

Our team is proud of the extra incentive of developing tools (both as a learning experience and extra income). They mention this often, as I do in my presentation of the plan. However, they do stress the Q* business, because you need to have a successful Q* business before people will want to listen and take advice from you.

Not once since I have been in the business did anyone at anytime say their lifestyle is solely based on the income from Q*. As a matter of fact, they often talk about other income, that has since developed after making it big in Q*. Tools, obviously, investments, venture capital for startup business (not related to Q*). They also develop non-profit charities and foundations. A person would be a fool to keep all their eggs in one basket. I know, I know, but what is that figure? Is 1/1 1/2 or 2/3? As we said, depends on your level and the number of people you are attempting to help.

Please do me a favor Tex, do not lump your experiences, opinions, and assumptions with the education system for which I am a part of. We all know what happens when you assume......

Piet Strydom said: April 11, 2007 3:16 AM | #

The postings occurred about two years ago, the income relate to a period long before that.

Tex said: April 11, 2007 11:16 AM | #

Piet,

The income relates to the income for the 3 years prior. In other words, the posting was 2005, the income was for 2002, 2003, and 2004.

There have been no significant reductions in tool prices for years prior to this timeframe, nor have there been any since, so these are still valid figures for profit estimating purposes.

TB 2 IBO,

If you tell people about tool profits but then do not know how much profit is typical, you haven't said much.

What if you showed the plan to go Diamond and didn't mention the typical money can be at that level, for the obvious effort that it would take?

Would anyone be interested in Q?

What do you tell your prospects about the amount of tool profits?

TB 2 IBO said: April 12, 2007 1:11 PM | #

TEX,

PLEASE re-read my post, as well as many others. The answers to these questions are there.

Also, as your post for Piet. The fact remains many (in your words) systems have the same figures for pricing on tools over the last several years. That doesn't take into account inflation. I think that is a good thing!!

Tex said: April 12, 2007 11:06 PM | #

TB 2 IBO,

The answers are not there, you talk around the answers but do not answer them specifically, that is why I asked the question.

The fact remains, my words were there haven't been significant tool price DECREASES, when in fact they have INCREASED. Our tapes used to be $5 (I assume they used to be even less) a few years ago, CD's are now $6-7, but I think a CD costs less to produce than a tape. Function prices have also gone up, they used to be well under $100, now they are in the $120-140 area. So, the "inflation" excuse just doesn't hold up to the facts.

Tex said: April 17, 2007 8:28 PM | #

Jim, congratulations on now having so many threads you have to move this thread to page 2. Hopefully you are finding some good ideas here as well as the volume of entries.

TB 2 IBO said: April 19, 2007 11:44 AM | #

Jim, Beth, and others,

So far this has been a good forum for communications, thoughts, and ideas.

You currently have a full gamit of people creating threads here and at Opportunity Zone.

Here is an idea I think would be great. Perhaps you can select 1 or 2 IBOs that could also create threads for this forum. It would allow a great insight on topics we would also thing important.

What do you think??

Piet Strydom said: April 24, 2007 12:07 PM | #

What is more revealing to me is not what is being said, but rather what is not said. Also not who is saying, but who is not saying.

Tex said: April 26, 2007 4:32 PM | #

Piet,

Can you be more specific?

Piet Strydom said: May 2, 2007 5:19 AM | #

The idea is to think about it....

An why it would be so ....

E.g. How many IBO's in Quixtar, how many in Amway? How many are posting?

Why...? Why not...?

Piet Strydom said: May 7, 2007 12:18 PM | #

It would seem to me, from the information at my disposal, and from the experience on this blog, as well as a couple of minutes on other rants and raves, that the situation is as follows:

A/Q was started in '59, and is currently a USD 6bn company. (Of which USD5bn is Amway, and 1bn is Quixtar.) Interestingly enough, the largest Alticor (parent company) country market is China! Second is (if I remember correctly) Japan, and third is North America. (I assume it includes Canada?)

(Correctly reporting numbers is such a tedious job!!)

While the overseas growth has been phenomenal, growth in the North American market has been lacklustre.

Last time I heard, from an Amway employee at a BSG support meeting a year or more ago, Amway had three million IBO's that had renewed at least once. Once again, I am not certain whether this includes Quixtar. Assuming that if Q has 1/6th the turnover, it follows that Q has 1/6th the IBO's, we have 500 000 people in North America.

We have had at most about 50 posters on this site, most of them one or two posts only. (This includes more than one non-American market IBO's). We have had ONE person vociferously complaining about the "level of tool profits". We have had a couple of others posting the same complaints from time to time, all of them running their own anti-Amway websites.

And the rest of the 499 950 - they couldn't care less either way. Either because they are to busy building a business, or too busy to build a business.

And as to why the higher pins don't post here? The ones I know are way to busy to even spend time reading blogs, less even to respond to old stories being rehashed time and time again.

So, when you place yourself in the big scheme of things, remember this: Take a bucket. Fill it with water, and agitate it with your hand. Do your best, spend all your energy, and then go away for 10 minutes. When you come back, look at how much impression you have left on that bucket of water.

Very few people have made the impact that Rich de Vos and Jay van Andel has made, they are among the few unique people that have found a way of keeping the water in motion.

Thanks you sirs.

John said: September 20, 2008 9:56 PM | #

Wow, I can't see this business doing anything big in the future at least in the US. I was planning on joining but I don't think I will after reading how money is really made with this company. There are way too many MLM companies that don't respect this kind of thing. Most companies sell the people tools and the uplines don't make any money from it. Money should come from PRODUCT SALES and NOT TOOLS SALES. Just try and sell me 6 boxes of mac-n-chesse for $24.95 . You sell your downline HYPE and BOGUS PROMISES OF WEALTH but you can't even sell your own products.

Editor's Note: This comment was slightly edited to abide by our community policy that prohibits name-calling. We believe that product sales are critical to building a strong business and that our Artistry, Nutrilite, Nutrilite Sports Nutition, SA8, LOC, XS Energy Drinks, and myriad other products speak for themselves. In fact, new (and current) IBOs can learn to retail all of them at The Learning Center (formerly Quixtar University) and through our Health and Skin Care Sales kits. If you change your mind, you are always welcome!

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